Suicide Loss and Healing Through Writing with Wendy Juergens

On Seeing Death Clearly, death doula and funeral celebrant Jill McClennen talks with Wendy Juergens about grief, dying, and healing through writing, including end-of-life planning and conscious living. Wendy shares the story of her son Nick, a Navy veteran who died by suicide nearly 14 years ago at age 32, and how writing her book, Hey, It’s Me, helped her stay connected to him, learn more about his life, and support others facing suicidal crisis or suicide loss. 

They discuss the stigma and silence around suicide, the importance of open, age-appropriate talks with children about death—especially through pet loss—and how talking and storytelling can prevent isolation. 

Wendy describes researching veterans’ challenges returning home, exploring post-traumatic growth, and creating a “Grief to Growth” workshop while continuing work on a pet loss book and a possible memoir. 

00:00 Welcome and Episode Setup

01:09 Meet Wendy Jurgens

02:56 Writing Through Grief

04:19 Pet Loss and Kids

06:14 The Writing Process

10:06 Nick’s Story Begins

13:03 Signs and Medium Messages

16:56 Post Traumatic Growth

19:09 Breaking Suicide Silence

22:26 Talking Openly Saves Lives

24:17 Going Public With the Mission

25:27 Sibling Support Lunches

26:03 Veterans Returning Home

26:46 Nick’s Navy Stressors

29:06 Identity After Leaving

31:04 Losses and Perspective

32:35 Choosing Your Circle

34:20 Feeling Grief Fully

35:50 Book and New Projects

38:27 Writing as Therapy

41:29 Closing and Next Steps

 https://www.wendyjuergens.com

Transcript

Wendy: [00:00:00]  I'm just so happy. I never thought I'd be this happy in this time of my life. I chalk a lot of that up to the writing that has helped me and in being more open with people and helping more people. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennnn, a death doula and funeral celebrant.

Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create an inviting space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. In this episode, I talk with Wendy Jurgens about grief, writing, and the ways stories can help us survive the hardest losses.

Wendy shares about her son, Nick, a Navy veteran who died by suicide nearly 14 years ago, and how writing her book, Hey, It's Me, helped her stay connected to him while also supporting others. We also talk about pet loss, helping children understand death, [00:01:00] the stigma around suicide, veterans coming home, and how writing can be a path from grief towards growth.

Thank you for joining us for this conversation. 

Jill: Welcome, Wendy, to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today. Can you tell me a little bit, first off, about who you are, where you come from, anything that you wanna share? 

Wendy: Or, my name's Wendy Juergens. I lived in Sharon until I graduated high school.

Then I made a big move to Foxborough, the next town, and I got married in Foxborough. I had two children who were brought up in Foxborough, and then they went to a private high school, 'cause I thought they needed it. And they both joined the military. I don't know where that came from, but right out of high school.

And we said our goodbyes. But I think my life, my work life, has been really interesting. I was brought up by parents who owned a gas/service station, and I was 10 years [00:02:00] old when they got that. So I was brought up by, I'll call them entrepreneurial parents. And at 10 years old, I was wondering myself, "What can I do so I don't have a boss?"

And that was my life. That, from 10 years old on, I was always thinking of things like that. So I've done a lot of things. I've worked in corporate. I've worked for small companies in admin. I worked at a photo lab color correcting back when we used our eyes to color correct rather than machines. And I've just had a lot of different experiences that I'm, in fact, considering writing a memoir.

Jill: Oh, I love it. I love memoirs. I really enjoy reading about people's lives, and I talk to so many people that say, "My life's not that interesting." And I'm like, "You'd be surprised." Yes. We sit down and really start writing out what we've done, your life is probably more interesting than you think it is, so I think that's great.

I- I think you should write a memoir. 

Wendy: I think I will. I've already started it, because I wrote the book about Nick, [00:03:00] and then I immediately started writing about pet loss, which is becoming more than just pet loss. I'm finding that my brain is attracting more information. My goal of the first part of the book is to educate as best I can people about pet loss and their children, because I was 11 or 12 when I lost my first dog.

I only had it for a year or so. But there was no conversation about it. Had no idea what happened to the dog. I was always out looking for the dog. So I talk about how I felt. And then share other examples in the book of different people and how they react to things, and just trying to educate people and give them more knowledge in that area.

So it appears that all I write about is grief, but I have fun with it, which is odd, but I love humor too, so I combine the two. In fact, I had a woman talk about reading my book, and she said, "Wendy, it's the first book [00:04:00] I've read where I'm almost laughing, but I have a lump in my throat." Mm. 

Jill: She 

Wendy: said, "That's what I was looking for.

Perfect." So I make people cry and I make people laugh. 

Jill: Yeah, and that's okay. We need both in life. We will feel sadness- Mm-hmm ... so then we should also feel the joy and the laughter. And I definitely wanna talk about your book about Nick, but I wanna actually s- go back to the pet loss really quickly before we move on- Okay

because I recently interviewed a pet death doula, which I thought that that's now a new career path that some people are going down. And- Interesting ... yeah, the idea of people... You still will see it in movies and whatever else, like a fish dies or a hamster dies, and the parents run out and just buy a new one-

and replace it, because God forbid we tell children that their pet has died. Mm. And to me, that seems like we're skipping the perfect opportunity to introduce children- Yes ... to the idea of death and loss. Yes. Because we are... [00:05:00] If we're human, unless we die first, we're gonna have people that we love that are going to die.

Yeah. And that includes our pets, but also if we don't deal with death when we're children, it makes it so much harder when we're adults. And we don't have any pets ourself, but we did have a cat, and when the cat died, the children were pretty young, but still, we told them what happened. We showed them where we buried the cat in the backyard.

And now we dog sit, so we have dogs in and out of the house all the time. Yeah. And we've had multiple dogs that we've watched that have died, and so we have the conversations with the kids, and then we'll sit on the couch and we all cry together because we love them like they are our own, even though we only- Yes

them part-time. Right. And I think that is an important thing to have age-appropriate conversations- Yes. Yes ... with children about death and grief and what it feels like and how we can work with it and not avoid by pushing it [00:06:00] away or self-medicating. And so I think that's beautiful that you're working in that space to help people- Have that conversation with their children around pets.

That's really great. 

Wendy: Yeah. Thank you. I'm having fun with it. I just, I joined a writer's group, which is really interesting. There's some brilliant writers right in my neighborhood. But I was, so I was working on a couple of pages to bring with me to read. They're gonna hate me for it because I know someone's gonna cry.

But I was writing about it, and again, as I was writing, it's something I remember clearly, but more information came into me as I was writing, more detail. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Wendy: So I'm trying to put more detail into this book than I did my first. But I literally had tears in my eyes. I said, "Oh, this is good." But it had to do with a five-year-old and their pet that we were- Mm

going to put down, and conversations around it, what happened. It is really, to me, amazing to relive that [00:07:00] in more detail. 

Jill: Yeah, and yeah, you're right. Where I wrote a chapter for a book about grief, I was one of 23 authors, and I wrote about- Mm ... the story of taking care of my grandmother at the end of her life, and my grief around that experience and how I worked through it.

But there was definitely one point when I was reading the chapter and I was just crying, and I was like, "All right. Good. Good." It's, then I, means that I'm really getting across what I want to get across. If I'm reading it- Mm ... and experiencing that feeling, I hope that other people do, too. Not that I wanna make people cry- No

but I want to make people feel things. It's imp- Yeah ... that we feel things. 

Wendy: And process, yes. Yes. So it's sent me off on a little tangent as I'm writing this second book, talking to people, like I'm doing a book talk this week, and it's the first time I've talked about my book. But I'm gonna talk about the process, which is not traditional at all.

And it's sending me in a direction where I [00:08:00] want to help people start writing, because I think it's so therapeutic. It's so fulfilling, and a lot of people are interested in it. I did give a little presentation to a small group in our chamber of commerce about writing, and one gentleman asked me, interesting questions come out of these too, but he asked me, he says, "Did you have your book edited?"

And I said, "I did." I said, "I did editing first. I went through it a few times first," 'cause I'm big on grammar and everything, and I want my style of writing, but I want it to make sense. And he says, "So when this other person read it," he said, "did that bother you that they made comments?" I said, "No, that's their job.

Secondly, you have to learn to let go of that ego. Because when you let go of that ego, the whole world opens up." And he sat there, and I just, you could see him absorbing that information, so it was pretty [00:09:00] cool. 

Jill: And it is an interesting point where when the editor edited the book that I was part of and sent back the changes that should be made to my chapter, it does feel a little weird, where you're reading through it and you're like, "Maybe they don't understand why I wrote it the way that I wrote it," or whatever else.

Yeah. But in the long run, when I made the changes, it made it a stronger chapter. Yes. It really did help the reader be able to read it and help it flow better. And you're right, it's only your ego that wants to be like, "No, they don't understand. What are they doing?" "Why are they changing it?" You know, that's their job.

Their job is to make it- Exactly ... the best that it can be, and in the long run I was so happy with my chapter when it was done. Yeah. I was really proud of... 'Cause I was one of those people that didn't think I could write. I didn't know how to write, I wasn't a good writer, all this stuff. So I pushed myself out of my comfort zone to really write this chapter, and I don't know, now I feel really good [00:10:00] about it.

I was really- Yeah ... proud of myself. But it's not a whole book, so I'm impressed. Tara Hardy onto your second, talking about your third. And why don't you tell us a little bit about your first book, about Nick? 

Wendy: Okay. And Nick died by suicide. It'll be 14 years ago this May. And it was very interesting that the night he died, or the afternoon and that evening when they determined who he was, the chief of police came to the house with one of his detectives.

And the chief doesn't usually make these calls, but he came to the house because he had known my kids since they were little, and we were friends. And I did some work for him when he was in college, so he came to let me know. And so my husband was standing next to me, and when he told us what they determined, which was it was suicide, my husband, who is Nick's stepdad, just fell into a chair next to me, bawling his eyes out.

He just ... 'Cause Nick was really his best friend. They get along so well. And he was [00:11:00] crying, and I'm standing there. I probably appeared somewhat unaffected, but my feelings that I was feeling that I didn't express then was, number one, I felt so bad for Nick that he ended up in that position. I felt so bad for him.

And secondly, I had this overwhelming, it's hard to describe, this overwhelming cloud come over me and just- engulfed me that said, "Now you have a job to do." And I felt like it was a message from Nick. And I'm standing there, so I was in shock over that, not what they were saying. And so I was thinking about that, okay, what would my job be?

And the chief continued to talk a little bit, and he kept it brief. He's just an awesome guy, and he asked me if I could spend some time with the detective. I said sure, because I was okay. I, I'll have to tell you another thing too, that I was [00:12:00] expecting it at some point, which is pretty sad. But Nick was a fifth-generation suicide in my family, and he had been sick.

No one noticed it. Only I noticed it, only 'cause I knew him so well and he shared things with me. I never asked him if he was suicidal, but he shared some pretty deep things with me. So I knew he was in a bad place. So the expectation of that happening one day, believe it or not, took the edge off of it. It was almost, it was a twinge of relief that it was done.

Mm. So hearing the words that, "We think it was suicide," the last words I ever wanted to hear. But then when I fe- felt that little twinge of relief because I had been worrying about it for at least 10 years. And so it's an interesting journey. And when I hear other people's stories, there's al- there's always this little teeny bit of a thread that runs through all of our stories that's the same, [00:13:00] and that is very interesting to me as well.

So I went to, I went to have Reiki done by a friend of mine, yeah, after a few months. Mm. And I was doing okay, and she was really amazed at how well I was doing. But I'm a very curious person, so my curiosity kicked in and I was just trying to discover as much as I could about Nick and suicide, the whole thing.

It was almost like I was preparing to write a book. And so when she was done at the end of the Reiki session, she says, "So Wendy," she said, "it appears you need to write a book." Oh. And I said, "Really?" And I said, "About what?" And she says, "You're doing some writing, right?" I said, "Yeah." "What are you writing about?"

And I said, "Memories of Nick." Because honestly, I thought I was going to forget him. Mm. And I guarantee with all people, you will never forget your loved one. Don't worry about that. But I thought I was going to forget him. And she said, "So all of that material you're putting together and all the people you're talking to," she said, "So a [00:14:00] book, uh, a book is indicated here."

And she said, "And besides that," and she was a medium as well, said, "You have a friend here who is conveying that to me." And I said, "Would his name be Nick?" She laughed. He has a very strong presence, and I know a lot of people don't believe in the spirit world, but so many people, friends of mine that have been messaged, I will put it that way.

So I said, "All right. That's good information, and I will see what happens." She said, "Let me know." So of course, when I did write the book, I let her know. But there was two other mediums I went to, and both of them, and they don't know each other, they're from different parts of the state, and both of them came up with the same thing.

So I decided, okay, going to write a book. I love to write. I started writing at 3:00 in the morning after Nick died- Mm ... 'cause I woke up and just wrote [00:15:00] and wrote every morning, two, two hours maybe. I don't know how many words. I didn't track any of that. Like I said, very unconventional, but I just enjoyed it so much.

I enjoyed learning more about my son. I learned so much about him afterwards through Facebook and all of that, and talking to people. Mm. And so I always say it was a gift from Nick, the gift of writing that I never thought I ... I didn't realize I had that gift. So I've learned so much over the years. I- it seems like yesterday, but I've done so much, talked to so many people.

I've literally had people referred to me who are dealing with someone in their family who's, who is suicidal or someone in their family who died by suicide. And I'm not a psychologist, but I can listen and I can give them resources, and it's been so fulfilling. So I absolutely love it. There's [00:16:00] no money in it, but it's, I, I just love it.

And I have work that I do, other work that I do that brings me in some income. I'm supposed to be retired. I'm going to be 77 this month. I'm just like, I'll never retire, especially not from writing. I just love it. And Nick has turned out to be a joy in my life. When he was alive, yes, he was a lot of fun, but there's something about having written the book and understanding him more.

That's the other thing, he was a veteran, so I didn't understand that part. So understanding him more and what was going on in his life, getting to know better his friends, even his employers. Everybody was so close to him. So I've got this entire new family surrounding me. It, it really is an amazing experience.

So I was told the other day by a [00:17:00] psychologist who works with the elderly, and she was listening to me talk about everything that I'm doing, and she literally pointed at me and she said, "Post-traumatic growth." I said, "What is that?" She said, "It's a real thing, post-traumatic growth. So you've taken trauma and you've turned it around into a positive thing for you."

And she said, "And I can feel like you want to do that for others, too." I said, "I do." I thought that was interesting 'cause I, as soon as I got home that afternoon, I looked it up and it is a real thing. So I like all the positives. I don't like the negatives. 

Jill: Um- I'd never heard that term before, post-traumatic growth, or maybe I have somewhere along the way.

But I feel like so many people that I interview on my podcast... Again, I feel like most of the people that come on my podcast, I have talked to people who have had children die by suicide, by drug overdoses. One woman whose 12-year-old just didn't wake up one morning. [00:18:00] Went to bed, just didn't wake up in the morning.

Wendy: Oh my God. 

Jill: I know. Isn't that crazy? And so I talk to so many people that have gone through some of the worst experiences that I can imagine, especially as a mother, and yet everybody has that same common thing of, "I would have never wished for this. I would have never wanted to go through this. But the reality is, I did, and so what am I gonna do with it?"

Wendy: Yeah. 

Jill: And I think that's the best that we could do as a human, right? We can't stop- Yes ... ourselves from suffering. No. But do we wanna live out the rest of our life- Being in this pit of despair, which some people- Yeah ... I'm not judging the folks that do, right? If that's the best they can do, that's the best that they can do.

Personally, myself, I would want to use that experience to help other people, like you are. Yeah. I think that's just the best thing that we can do with our pain, is use it to help other people [00:19:00] going through the same thing. 

Wendy: It's so important. It hurts my heart when I hear that someone is struggling or has been struggling for years.

I went to a support group for parents who had lost children to suicide. Did that a couple years ago now, and I was curious. I wanted to see what do they talk about, what do they do. And so I was sitting in the room and I introduced myself to the moderators. There was a man and a woman. They were very nice.

And listening to all the people around, going around the table one at a time, and there were a couple of couples there who had lost a child. So they're going around the table and they're talking about their loss. You, you could feel the tension as they were talking about it. And every single one of them said, "We have not talked to our neighbors about it."

Or another one said, "We moved out of the neighborhood. We moved to a different town." Another one said, "My mother doesn't [00:20:00] even know." I was like, "Oh my God." And so every single one of them, that flavor came out at the end of what they said. And so I was next. I was the last one. And I'm sitting there and I'm the- I said, "Okay, I'm feeling a little freakish here, to be quite honest with you."

I said, "Because the day after my son died, there were people, I mean, customers calling us that had heard about it, asking if we were okay. We had others dropping by with food. We had friends, peers, people that we knew from the chamber of commerce either dropping by or if we were out shopping or something, stopping and talking to us.

And we were very open. It's like our door was just open to all of this conversation. And people knew that we were the type of people that would want to talk about it, and would want to soothe others who were feeling so bad. Oh my God, how could this happen to them? They're such [00:21:00] nice people." I heard we were nice people.

I said, "That's a ... At least we're nice people." But the fact that there was that communication, it was just so important to me. Mm. So when I hear someone who doesn't ta- One person said it'd been 14 years and she had not told her sister, who lives on the West Coast. I said, "How can that happen? How can that be?"

And then the last thing I thought was, looking around the table, all these people, if they don't tell somebody, they're all gonna blow up. It is just- Yeah ... emotionally, it's just not natural not to talk. That's one of the suggestions that I have when people are referred to me, to hear my story and ask me questions and, 'cause they're in a bad place.

They're trying to ... Like one woman, she called. She's got her granddaughter living with her who's late teens, and she says, "Wendy, I don't know what to do. She's so down," telling me all about it. And she said, "But she talks [00:22:00] constantly." I said, "That's good." Yeah. She said, "It is?" I said, "Yes. Most people don't talk." I said, "So always encourage her to talk about it," because she could literally work her way out of that by talking.

Yeah, there is all sorts of people out there, but again, I feel so bad for those that are not doing something with it And that's what I wanna encourage people to do. 

Jill: Yeah. And you're right. There's so much shame in our culture still- Yes ... around suicide, right? Yes. And so, and I would say probably almost everybody knows someone who's died by suicide.

Wendy: Oh, yeah. 

Jill: It, it's unfortunate, and even for me, my boss died by suicide, and it was a big secret. Nobody wanted to talk about it. They all wanted to- Yeah ... hide how he died. And of course, it eventually got out. But it was like this weird kind of, "We can't say how he really died." It was just, it was a sudden death.

We're just gonna tell- Yeah ... [00:23:00] everybody it was a sudden death kinda thing. Yeah. But then that just leads to more shame so that if somebody is feeling any suicidal thoughts, they're not gonna be as likely to talk about it. Or like this woman's- No ... granddaughter, if the grandmom tries to shut down the conversation, "Oh, you don't really think that, right?

You don't really feel that way, right?" Then they're just gonna hold it all in. It'll get 

Wendy: worse. 

Jill: Exactly, and then it just gets worse. Sometimes- Yeah ... just saying it out loud- Yeah ... can really help somebody feel better. So you're right. Talking about it openly, again, in an age-appropriate way, depending on if you're talking to children.

Right. My kids did ask how he died. At that point, they were young enough where I said he died suddenly. Couple years later, we were talking again. I said he died- Yeah ... by suicide. They wanted to know how. "Nope, we're not gonna talk- Yeah ... about that." But I didn't wanna lie to them. And I know- Yeah ... that there's people that would be like, "You're planting the seeds."

I'm like, look, if somebody has the idea that they want to die by suicide, [00:24:00] it's not gonna be by me saying that my boss did that's gonna plant that seed, right? Yes. It's not how it works. So- Yeah ... I know. I just, I wish people were more comfortable talking about things that are uncomfortable because I feel like it would help all of us.

I love 

Wendy: that. Yeah. No, it's true. I went to a networking event. It's once a month, and I go every month, and there's about 70 people there. 

Jill: Wow. 

Wendy: Somehow, in an hour and a half, we all get to say who we are and what we do. When my book was published, so in January, I went and I announced that the book had been published, and I had said previously that if I could in some way be a part of the eradication of suicide, especially among vets- But both times, so that was in December and then in January.

So both times when I did my little one minute, I got a huge applause. Nobody else did. So I just hit a nerve with a lot of [00:25:00] people. Mm. And I tell people, I said, "I, I just put my brave pants on and I'm going in and I'm talking about this." And every single meeting I've been to, so I've been to about six now, every single one I have someone come up to me and tell me, "Uh, I'm in the same club you are.

I lost a son to suicide." Last month is, "I lost a brother to suicide 10 years ago," and he had never talked about it. Mm. Encouraged him to go to a group, support group for suicide. So he actually went to this place that does sibling lunches. So in other words, he's a sibling of a guy that he lost to suicide.

And he went to this lunch. He told me about it. He said, "So I went to the lunch and I talked to this guy next to me who lost his brother." He said, "It's the first time I ever talked about it." He says, "It felt so good." I said, "Yay," you know? So he will start spreading the word, too. It's like a spider web. [00:26:00] It just keeps growing.

Jill: Yes. Yeah. And yeah, you're right with the veterans that come back and die by suicide. My half-brother was in the Army- I think he did three tours in Iraq. He was there for a while, and when he came back, he is doing pretty well. Yeah. But I know some of the other people that he was with are not doing- Yeah

as well, and it's really frustrating to me that as a country we can't do a better job of supporting these people when they come back, and they risk their lives for us. And the fact that people come back and the best option to them is to take their own life because they can't live with the things that they saw, the things that they did, whatever it is- Yeah

that's heartbreaking. That's really 

Wendy: heartbreaking. Yeah. It's so... yeah, again, I wrote an article to an e-magazine, and it was about, about Nick joining the Navy. I titled it, I Think I Joined the Navy. It's exactly what he [00:27:00] said to me when he called me at work that afternoon. He got home, I, and I said, "Don't you think you should know?"

Jill: Yeah, exactly. 

Wendy: But that's the game he would play. But, and so again, I was curious. I researched veterans, their return home, what that was like. There's so much written about that, and I encourage people to read those, to do that research themselves because we have so many veterans coming home. I literally did not know how to react to him.

I didn't know what to say, what to do, and, and 'cause he was in the Navy, he was on a submarine, so he had a different set of stressors. But the submarine I found out too is about 85% of the kids, I'll call them, because basically they are, on a submarine, come from broken families. It's, what? I said, and Nick came from a broken family.

And they said it's the comradery and it's like they don't advertise it. It's just [00:28:00] an attraction that they have to it. So he was in nuclear power, so that was very stressful for him. But it became his family. It became his home so that when his time ended and he came home, he literally left his home again.

First time he left our home to go to the Navy, then he had to leave a home, and he's a real homebody. Very loyal. It was not good for him. And so between that and having no patience with the residential people. He said, "You people." He said, "I don't understand you." So it was so difficult. But now that I understand it, I understand what he was going through, I feel bad that I didn't understand it back then.

Yeah. So again, I just encourage people, learn what you can about these people coming home, these scenarios. How can we help them? So there's a lot of work to be done, that's for sure. 

Jill: It really [00:29:00] is. How old was Nick when he died? 

Wendy: 32. 

Jill: Okay. 

Wendy: Yeah. 

Jill: Yeah, and that's young. Yeah. That's not... But I can understand that especially, like you said, coming from a broken home myself, right?

That is the life that I grew up in. I did not join the military. I actually went into food service. But in some ways, it is very much the same. We go into- Yeah, serving. Yeah. Yeah. We go into a group of people that we become family. We work crazy hours together. Yeah. We work under intense, stressful situations.

Wendy: Yeah. 

Jill: We're all a bunch of misfits in food service. It's very rare that you find somebody that's, "Oh, I'm pretty well-adjusted, came from a good home." Yeah. They're not the type of people that typically go into food service. And so I understand in some ways that feeling of belonging that you find. Mm. And how when you leave that, like I don't work full-time in food service anymore, and there is a part of me that had to grieve that loss- Yes

of [00:30:00] identity- Yes ... of myself and who I am and how when I meet people now, how do I introduce myself? Yeah. And I imagine for your son, that's even more intense. Because I've actually been on one of the Navy ships. I used to live in Virginia Beach, where there was a whole bunch of them there, and I was going to culinary school, and so we were going onto the ships to recruit some of the guys that maybe were getting ready to leave and go back to college.

Yeah. They are intense. They are so tight. Mm, yeah. And I'm not big. I'm only 5'4", like 115 pounds. I'm tiny. And even for me being in that space, I was like, "Oh, I don't... I couldn't live like this. This is a whole different level of- It 

Wendy: is 

Jill: Of not, and yeah, and then being on a sub under the water, like I can't even imagine.

So I'm sure for him coming back to normal life and having to interact with a bunch of ungrateful humans that just wanna complain [00:31:00] about everything, and you're like- Yes ... "Look, you have no idea." 

Wendy: No idea. It's kinda put me in a position like that too, because having lost Nick, I lost a husband back in '88 to cancer.

Jill: Oh, no. 

Wendy: I lost my dad to cancer when he was 70. And so going through those losses and then... I'm a great people watcher. I like to just sit and watch people, and I'll be sit- sitting and watching or maybe listening to a couple of people at the next table complaining about stupid things. Yeah. It's like, and you don't wanna wish trauma upon somebody, but you wanna wish that they were less ignorant to certain things so that...

'Cause who knows who's sitting around them who would be really annoyed by their conversation, their, what do we, their elite conversation. I'm sure that's not the type of people they [00:32:00] are, but that's how they come across. I just, I wanna come across as a person who cares. I love everyone. It just, I enjoy people so much.

But if I don't enjoy them, if they're the Debbie Downers of the world, no. In fact, I heard on the news the other day and I laughed. They said, "You know those Debbie Downers?" And I'm sitting there listening, nodding. And they said, "Debbie Downers, if you hang out with a Debbie Downer, it'll actually take years off your life," and it just cracked me up.

I believe it. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Wendy: I believe it. 

Jill: Me too. 

Wendy: Yeah. 

Jill: And that's one of the things that my old boss, one of the things that we used- 'cause we taught together, so we taught students, we taught baking and culinary and ServSafe and all this stuff. And so he used to tell all of our students that who you hang around with is who you become.

And so for some of our students, it was such a life adjustment because when they came to school with us, when we started teaching them, some of their [00:33:00] friends would start to get, "Oh, what, you think you're better than me now?" kind of thing, and they were like, "I'm actually losing my friend circle." And Chef would be like, "Great.

That's a good thing. Those are the people that will just continue to drag you down. Now's your chance." Right. "Make the changes. Find the new people." And I've never understood that when people spend time with somebody that just does nothing but complain, I'm like, "You're just- I know ... making yourself more unhappy and giving yourself more to complain about."

I don't wanna be around that. And I think even for me, I've had some trauma in my life. I've had some things that have happened, certainly nowhere near the level of some other people. But what I find is I'm also a curious person like you are, and I wanna talk to people. I wanna hear about them and their real life- Yeah

and their real stories. And some of my students have been through intense trauma, really intense, and it is sometimes difficult to sit and hear those stories because it does make you feel a little [00:34:00] bit guilty for complaining about stupid things, right? It does make you feel a little bit of shame. It makes you feel intensely.

But that's okay Yeah And all that's done is opened me up to being able to just embrace all of life in a way- Yeah ... that I could have never in the past. And that's why I take this deep dive into death and grief, and people say to me, "Oh, isn't that really hard?" Yeah, sometimes it is really hard. Talking to a mother whose son died, my son's 15, that is my worst nightmare.

Yeah. But I also know that avoiding talking to you is not gonna keep my son safe- No ... any more than talking to you is gonna make my son die, right? I can understand both those things. Yeah. But I can also open myself up to feeling all of the things. And so many people avoid wanting to feel anything. Mm. So then yes, their car not being perfectly clean is the worst thing in the world to them, and that's all they wanna talk about when they're at lunch, and you're sitting next to them being like, "Really?[00:35:00] 

Really? Okay. Can we get a grip, please?" 

Wendy: Oh, it's so true. It's so true. And about changing, people changing or changing your friends, there's a phrase that's always stuck with me: If you can't change a friend- And I think it was after my first divorce that that was said to me because after a divorce, a lot of friends change.

But yeah, I'm right there with you. 

Jill: We're getting close to the end of our time. We still have a few minutes left. I know. Okay. It flies by. Um- It 

Wendy: does. 

Jill: I know. I know, which is why I love it. Again, I never know where the conversations are gonna go. I always enjoy this, but I just wanna make sure that first off, we give you a chance to talk about your books, where people can find it, where they can find you, and then if there's any last things that you really wanna share while we still have a couple minutes.

Wendy: Okay. All right. So the name of my book is Hey, It's Me. I got off the top of one of Nick's letters. Oh. It started his letter, "Hey, it's me." In fact, I put the letter in the book. [00:36:00] It's pretty funny. But then I found out there's a lot of books out there with the title Hey, It's Me. 

Jill: Did you? 

Wendy: Yes. 

Jill: Okay. 

Wendy: So my author, my name that I use is Wendy Jurgens, but I put my maiden name in there, so it's Wendy Hare, H-A-R-E, Jurgens, and you can find it that way.

And it's got... It's a very muted cover. It's a blurry cover- Okay ... with Hey, It's Me on it, and in the blurry cover, there's an old truck. That was published in December. It's been a lot of, uh... I got my first royalty check last week. 

Jill: Ooh, congratulations. 

Wendy: I know. 

Jill: It's 

Wendy: funny. It was more than $2. That's a good 

Jill: thing.

Um, 

Wendy: yeah. And as I said, I'm writing my next book about pet loss, have not got a title yet, but expect to have that done by the end of this year. I have to give myself some grace, maybe sooner. As far as anything else, uh, I don't know. I- I'm just so happy. I never thought I'd be this happy in this time of my life.[00:37:00] 

I chalk a lot of that up to the writing that has helped me, and in being more open with people, and helping more people. In fact, my... I have a girlfriend. She's a leadership coach, life and leadership coach. It was suggested she and I do a workshop, so we've put a workshop together. We call it Grief to Growth.

Ooh. So I talk about my book and grief, and I'll keep it fairly light. People can talk to me afterwards if they'd like, but the grief, what grief is, grief I've had, and then swing into, okay, what do we do next? How do we grow out of this? Post-traumatic growth. So we're, we've been working on that. Our first presentation is going to be in May at a senior center.

We can't wait. I'm, I'm afraid I laugh a lot, but, and I make her laugh, so that's ... It'll be fun. And people say, "Grief to Growth?" And we always say, "It'll be fun." Encouraging people to come check it [00:38:00] out. Uh, and I, and like I said, too, I'd love to work with people and help them start a writing program of some sort, even if just a journal.

Anything. Yeah. So that'll, that might be another opportunity that comes up. A little writing workshop. 

Jill: So- That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. I can see you leading a writing workshop at some point- Yeah, yeah ... to help people use writing in whatever way that they want to. Yeah. Like you said, it could be journaling.

When my grandmother was dying, I started a blog, which is what I used. Mm-hmm. A lot of my blog entries in my chapter of the book. It was so therapeutic for me to write. Yes. And I hadn't revisited those in years. She died, it'll be 15 years this summer. I hadn't revisited that blog until I went to write the chapter, which I wrote it last year.

And I remember starting the blog just because I needed to get out what it was like. Yeah. I had a six-month-old baby, and my grandmother was on [00:39:00] hospice, and it was not what I expected, because hospice is not well understood in our country. So it was not- Yeah ... the 24-hour nurse is gonna be there, grandma just sleeps a lot.

That was not my experience. And writing about it was so helpful for me. Yeah. And then even revisiting it later. Mm-hmm. Just rereading it, and some of it was difficult to read. Some of the- Yeah ... really hard experiences, but then also some of the really beautiful moments that I'd forgotten about- Yeah ... that I wouldn't have remembered if I didn't write them down.

So for sure- See, yeah ... writing is so helpful. 

Wendy: It's fun to look back at what you wrote years ago, 'cause you learn so much. You improve. And 

Jill: you change. 

Wendy: Yeah, you do. So, but thank you so much for having me on. This has been fun- 

Jill: Oh, you're so welcome ... to, fun getting to 

Wendy: know you. 

Jill: And we have fun. People are like- Yeah

oh, a podcast about death. I'm like, you would be surprised how much I laugh and how much we have a really good time- Right ... on this podcast. It's not- Yeah ... sad and [00:40:00] depressing and super morbid. It's life, and that's what I like- Yeah ... to talk about. And your book, is it on Amazon? Like, where can people find it?

Yes. 

Wendy: It is. It's on Amazon. You can also find it on Barnes & Noble site. 

Jill: Okay. 

Wendy: It's also on Kindle. 

Jill: Nice. 

Wendy: And I haven't got an audio, I'll say, yet. 

Jill: I was just gonna say, yet. I'm sure it'll get there. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll put a link in the show notes to it- Okay ... so that this way people can easily find it. Okay. And if anybody wants to find you, would we just give them your email?

Like, how could somebody reach out to you? 

Wendy: Yeah. Email, even phone call, text. But easier to text, because I don't answer the phone if I don't know who's calling me. 

Jill: Same. 

Wendy: But text. Yeah. Uh, I am open to calls. Love to talk to people and- Hear their stories. Yeah Mm. 

Jill: Wonderful. Maybe you'll start a podcast one day.

Wendy: Maybe. 

Jill: I'll put your email in the show notes. Okay. So if somebody wants to reach you, they could email you first. You can give them your number. Okay. But I think that's wonderful that [00:41:00] you open yourself up to talking to people who are going through a similar experience. 'Cause like we said- Yeah ... I'm sure there's so many people out there that are going through it and just don't know where to go.

They don't know who to reach out- Right ... they don't know who to talk to. Right. So I think- Right ... it's beautiful that you're offering- Thank you ... that. 

Wendy: Thank you. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Wendy: Appreciate it, Jill. 

Jill: Oh, you're so welcome. And really, Wendy, thank you so much for coming on, telling us about Nick and about your whole story, and your new books, and all the good stuff you're working on.

Wendy: If you've been listening to my podcast for a while and you hear me and my guests talk over and over about how important it is to create a plan for the end of life and to 

Jill: have the conversations with your loved ones about what's important to you, and you're thinking, "Okay, maybe it's time. Maybe I should actually sit down and figure this out instead of just hoping it all works out later," I get it.

These conversations can feel overwhelming, or scary, or just like something you'll deal with another day. But you don't have to do it alone. If you want help creating an end-of-life care plan for yourself or for someone you love, [00:42:00] maybe it's your aging parents, a spouse, whoever it is in your life, you can book a complimentary 30-minute call with me.

And we'll just talk. We'll get clear on what's going on for you and what the next right steps might be. There's no pressure, just support. The link's in the show notes whenever you're ready. And if this episode made you think of someone, a sibling, a friend, or another caregiver, feel free to share it with them.

Sometimes these conversations are easier to start when someone else opens the door first. Thank you for being here. The fact that you're even willing to listen to this kind of conversation means a lot.