Abandoned Cemeteries and Lost Burial Grounds with Edward Snyder

In this episode, Jill McClennen speaks with Philadelphia-area researcher and photographer Edward Snyder about abandoned and forgotten cemeteries and what they reveal about dying, grief, legacy, and conscious living. Ed explains how his interest in cemetery art grew into decades of documenting burial practices and the death care industry, including stories of cemeteries destroyed, built over, or only partly moved, leaving human remains under streets, playgrounds, and parking lots. He cites the Philadelphia Archaeological Forum’s map of 200 historic burial sites. He describes cases like Monument Cemetery near Temple University and the First Baptist Church burial ground, where thousands may still remain. They discuss what can happen legally when construction finds remains, the dumping of tombstones along the Betsy Ross Bridge shoreline, neglect and restoration efforts at Mount Moriah, Mount Vernon, and Har Hasetim, and how green burials and community events can fund long-term care. 

01:40 Cemetery Photography Obsession

04:51 How Many Hidden Burial Grounds

07:17 Monument and Lafayette Cemeteries

09:04 Construction Finds and the Law

11:09 Tombstones Dumped in Rivers

16:50 Grave Robbing at Mount Moriah

21:59 Turning Cemeteries into Green Space

27:48 Why Cemeteries Get Abandoned

29:12 Green Burial as a Lifeline

35:51 Camden Cemeteries and River Markers

https://thecemeterytraveler.blogspot.com/

Abandoned and Forgotten Cemeteries of Philadelphia and its Environs book on Amazon

“History Lives at Fort Mifflin” multi-author event

April 11, 2026, Fort Mifflin, 6400 Hog Island Rd, Philadelphia, PA 19153

“Abandoned Site Photography” Artist Talk Event with Ed Snyder and Veronika Schmude, April 15, 2026, Plays and Players Theatre, 1714 Delancey St, Philadelphia, PA 19103 

“The Challenge of the Abandoned Cemetery” presentation at the Spring 2026 Pennsylvania Chapter meeting of the Association for Gravestone Studies, May 2, 2026, Berks History Center, Reading, PA

Seeing Death Clearly episodes mentioned in this podcast:
How Natural Burial is Changing End-of-Life Planning with Ed Bixby

Reviving Philadelphia’s Forgotten Mount Vernon Cemetery with Brandon Zimmerman

Transcript

Ed: [00:00:00] That particular cemetery, which had 5,000 burials, was supposed to be moved. All the documentation says that all those bodies were removed when in fact maybe a dozen were. There are thousands of bodies under those streets right there right now. 

Jill: Welcome back to seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and funeral celebrant.

On this show, I have conversations that explore death, dying grief, and what it really means to live well. In this episode, I speak with Edward Snyder, a longtime Philadelphia area researcher and photographer who has spent decades documenting cemeteries and the stories they hold. What began as an interest in cemetery art and architecture eventually grew into a deeper exploration of burial practices.

The history of the death care industry and even the emerging role of death doulas, ed shares, insights from his book on abandoned and forgotten cemeteries in and around Philadelphia. We talk about burial grounds that have been destroyed, [00:01:00] built over, and nearly lost to history sometimes with human remains.

Still beneath the surface from the story of Mount Monument Cemetery, near Temple University to forgotten burial grounds. In Camden and Philadelphia, we 

Ed: explore why cemeteries become abandoned and what it takes to restore and honor them. Again. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. 

Jill: Welcome, ed to the podcast.

Thank you for coming on today. I know we actually met in person at the Punk Rock Flea Market a couple months ago. That's right. Yeah. You look a little different today. You got like a suit coat on. 

Ed: This is my work costume. Yes, 

Jill: exactly. Yes. The work costume. I, I have many of those actually at this point. So are you originally from the Philadelphia area?

Ed: I grew up in the coal mining regions of northeast pa and I have lived around and in Philadelphia since probably 1983. So I'm pretty much a long-term resident. 

Jill: I definitely really wanna [00:02:00] talk to you about your book and about, I dunno, would you call it a hobby that you research? 

Ed: So. It's not a job and it's not a hobby.

It's more like an addiction, I guess. I have been photographing and researching cemeteries since probably the late 1990s. I've been a photographer for most of my life, and I started photographing cemeteries around the late 1990s. I really was drawn by the artwork, the sculpture, the architecture. Then years later after doing that and making fine art prints and selling work in galleries, I noticed there were other things besides Marble Angels in cemeteries, and so it's.

Been an evolution where I've learned more about the history of cemeteries, burial practices, the people that work in cemeteries, the death [00:03:00] care business, and recently Death De. I did publish this recent book on abandoned cemeteries because I've traveled around the country and that seems to be a common theme.

Like the architecture in cemeteries, the sculpture, the style of tombstones, all that sort of thing varies by region, but across the US everybody's got abandoned cemeteries. I was just intrigued by that idea. It was totally foreign to me for a while. Having experienced Mount Mariah Cemetery in southwest Philadelphia, that was an enormous 200 acre abandoned cemetery, and that was the first one that I really experienced and ended up volunteering and being on their board of directors after a couple years.

But then I realized that abandoned cemeteries were all over the us. So the book that I wrote is mainly about abandoned cemeteries in and around Philadelphia, and the [00:04:00] cemeteries that are forgotten have been destroyed, maybe under the streets, the playgrounds, and the parking lots throughout the city, still with the bodies intact.

So that's what the book is mainly focused on. 

Jill: That is fascinating because I live outside of Philly and I guess I assumed there was more than I know of maybe like one or two abandoned cemeteries, but that's fascinating that there's some even under, and it makes sense. Philly's a really old city. It's been around a long time and so even before the settlers got here, there's was the Native Americans and so I'm sure there is.

Bodies probably under a lot of different things that we don't know about, but I didn't know that in the city that there was some that were hidden underneath. 

Ed: So do you want to guess how many there are? 

Jill: How many there are? My guess is maybe like five. 

Ed: So the [00:05:00] Philadelphia Archeological Forum has located 200.

Jill: Wow. 

Ed: And if you go on their website, there is a bar, historic burial. It's an interactive map and you could see where all these cemeteries are or were some where the bodies have been removed, some not, and these are the 200 that that group is actually aware of. It's a fun exercise. When I give lectures, I tell people to go home and find your address and see if you're living on top of an old graveyard.

Jill: That is actually really interesting. Now I'm gonna go and look at some of my favorite places that I go to in Philly, and I'm assuming they can't be that big of a cemetery, or are they pretty big ones that are just buried and hidden? Because I know there's still a lot of cemeteries all throughout the city that are not hidden.

They're still above ground. Was the entire city also [00:06:00] cemetery at one point? 

Ed: It's easy to think that it was. So I just gave a lecture on cemeteries that still exist that were here in 1776 and there are about 20 cemeteries that are still in existence, and some of them even still have active burials that were here before Philadelphia was established and some that were here certainly before.

The Declaration of Independence was signed, so at that time, Philadelphia's boundaries were much smaller than they are now. So if you consider Callow Hill Street to Christian Street 

Jill: mm-hmm. 

Ed: On the north and south side, and then the Delaware River to eighth Street. 

Jill: Oh yeah. That is really small. 

Ed: And there were probably a hundred [00:07:00] cemeteries.

I, I don't remember exactly what the acreage is, but it's a small area. There were some very tiny cemeteries because family cemeteries where people buried their kin on their own estates. Those are the small cemeteries that maybe there were five people buried. However, there were enormous cemeteries like Monument Cemetery and Lafayette Cemetery.

That were supposedly moved. And they had respectively about 26,040 6,000 burials. So Wow. Monument Cemetery was on Broad Street across from Temple University, and that was supposedly moved, or most of it was moved in 1956. And as Temple found out a year ago when they started digging for a new building.

Not all the bodies were moved, and that happens a lot. Even if the intention [00:08:00] is that all the bodies should be moved, then some are always left behind. There are some situations like the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia, which was near third and Arch Street, when there was an excavation to put up a new condo complex there in, I think it was 2017, they hit bodies.

They hit hundreds of bodies, and it turned out that that particular cemetery, which had 5,000 burials, was supposed to be moved to Mount Mariah Cemetery in 1862. And if you look on the internet, all the documentation says that all those bodies were removed when in fact, probably. Maybe a dozen were, so there are thousands of bodies under those streets right there right now.

There's a gamut of small and large cemeteries. Some that [00:09:00] were just built over and some that were actually moved. 

Jill: What do they do with the bodies if they find them when they're doing construction? Especially if that's one where like they don't even know where the person was supposed to go. They don't have any paperwork, they don't have any, what do you do with those bones?

Ed: So that's a very interesting question and the answer would differ. Depending on what city, what county, what state you live in. So in Philadelphia, in a situation like that, if you do not disturb the remains, you can build on or around them. But if you choose to move the remains, then a lot of statutes and laws come into play, whether people know what those are or choose to comply with them.

That's an individual unique situation and I think with regard to Monument Cemetery and what happened with Temple about a year [00:10:00] ago, it appears to me that they just, uh, decided to build over the graves. That's why a lot of places in Philadelphia where cemetery still exist underground, they never put up a building that requires a foundation.

It's always a playground or a parking lot or a rec center or something like that, for obvious reasons. 

Jill: That is fascinating. I had no idea. A friend of mine lives literally right next door to the Mutter Museum, so when I look out the window, I look down on Mutter and I always think it's kind of neat. I know there's some disturbing history with how they acquired some of the specimens they have there, but they have so many skulls.

I had no idea that we could literally be on top of. People's remains all throughout the city. It sounds like if you are traveling around any major city, especially some of the older ones up here in the northeast, we are probably all over top of people's remains and have no idea ever that that's the case.

Ed: I agree with you, and I think I [00:11:00] looked up the Motor Museum because I was proposing to do a lecture for them, and I think they are one of the few areas where there is no cemetery under them. But this sort of thing did happen all over the US in San Francisco in the early 19 hundreds. The city decided the city was no place for cemeteries.

So they evicted all the cemeteries, they dug up all the cemeteries, they moved, whatever remains they had to coma. Which is a small town south of San Francisco, and they dumped all the monuments and gravestones into San Francisco Bay. You see stories like tombstones wash up on the shore. There are photos from San Francisco where you could see stuff like that.

And the same exists under the Betsy Ross Bridge in Philadelphia, where there are tombstones and monuments littering the shoreline so they don't wash up on the. Speech [00:12:00] because a tombstone could easily weigh 800 pounds. They're just there and the water goes up, the water goes down, the tide rises and that sort of thing, and sometimes exposes these things.

And the ones in San Francisco only gets seen. When the tide goes way out every, every couple years for some reason, or during a hurricane or a storm. But in Philadelphia, we did the same thing. In 1956, the city dumped all the tombstones on the shore to strengthen the shoreline so they could build the Betsy Ross Bridge.

Jill: Oh, what a shame. I love cemeteries. I think they're beautiful. When we went to Europe for a trip, everywhere we went, that was the first thing I did was go into the cemeteries. And look at all the tombstones. They're so beautiful. So the fact that they destroyed them and dumped them into the bay or into the Delaware River, in our case, that is so sad.[00:13:00] 

Ed: One thing to keep in mind that I always try to point out really to myself from time to time and to other people that like we were not around. At those times when this stuff happened, all kinds of things were happening in the world, and it's really easy to say, well, that was a really bad thing. They shouldn't have done that.

But really, we don't really know what was going on at the time. I try not to be. Critical. There are situations with regard to Philadelphia, where with Lafayette Cemetery and a couple other ones, Lafayette by the way, was took up the area of the recreation center and ball field on Pacho Avenue. Where Pats and Gino's cheese stakes are.

So that enormous field with the basketball court and the soccer field, that was Lafayette Cemetery, I think it was 1946 when the city decided to obliterate that and they paid somebody to dig [00:14:00] up as many graves as. They could and get rid of all the tombstones and all the bodies. So they paid the guy a certain amount of money to do that.

Nobody cared what he did with the bodies or the grave markers. They just leveled it and developed it into a park, a playground, and it was discovered when. The foundation for the Neshaminy Mall was being dug, which I think was like 1968, they found where this guy dumped all the bodies, roughly 40,000 bodies.

You don't have to hold back and be diplomatic with that. That was wrong. And so if you go to the Ne Shay Mall now, right across from the mall, you'll see a giant. Open field that somebody keeps the grass cut. And there's a very small marker that says, this is in memory of the, something like [00:15:00] 46,000 bodies that were unearthed from Lafayette Cemetery, but nothing was ever built there because there were trenches of graves that were just dug and unceremoniously dumped, buried over, and nobody knew for decades.

Nobody cared. What happened, and there are situations like that, but there's also. Above board situations like what happened with Greenwood Cemetery in North Philadelphia. The cancer hospital next door wanted part of the land to expand their parking lot, so they bought. A part of the cemetery paid to have the graves moved to the other side of the property and they were reinterred and the monuments were set up on the other side of the property.

Everything was done above board and the hospital compensated the cemetery and I think gave them enough money to restore Benjamin Rush's State House, which [00:16:00] is what they use as their office on that property. Right now, people are capable of doing the right thing. 

Jill: I didn't know that about Greenwood Cemetery.

I know there's people, I guess, depending on your spiritual beliefs, but there's some people that disturbing a grief that's like really bad. Digging up somebody's bones spiritually can be like really, really bad. And so it's fascinating to think that there's 47, 40 6,000 bodies. I'm sure they're not all together, right?

They're probably like pieces of one person is spread out everywhere because I can't imagine they did it well if they were just dumping them in there. It's kinda sad, but I'm also the type of person that once I'm dead, this shell is not gonna mean a thing to me. I'm really care what happens to it, which actually.

I'm sure you know about the guy that was digging up Graves in Philly recently. He got caught. I don't know how they feel about that. 'cause I know somebody that knows [00:17:00] him and they sent me a message and was like, oh, they're trashing him online and he's a great guy. And I'm like, all right, he might be a great guy, but you're still digging up people and stealing them and then you're selling them to make money That doesn't sit right with me.

That seems like a really. Not good thing to do for a lot of reasons, 

Ed: for a lot of reasons. I agree with you. I volunteered for Mount Mariah for about 14 years. I actually left the board back in April, about a year ago, and I guess this stuff started happening in November, and certainly the guy was trespassing and I guess maybe it was easy to.

Get into to access at night. Because you come in through the woods and the mausoleums are far in the back and there are no police patrolling [00:18:00] the grounds or anything like that at night. I have so many opinions and diverse feelings about that whole situation. I have to think of it in very specific terms.

I cannot imagine him doing this at night, which was. Insane. The first thing that I thought of when I looked at his Instagram page, the word provenance with any kind of human remains just took on a whole new meaning for me that you just cannot trust that. Ever again because anybody that sells anything, and there are people that sell human remains online, and you could look at their websites and they say ethically sourced, and they say provenance and how?

Could you ever believe that after something like this happens and the, the disrespect to [00:19:00] the families and the descendants of these people is just unforgivable? I, I cannot imagine how any kind of reparations could even be made. I know the cemetery is raising money. They have a fundraiser to repair all of the damage to the crypts and also to.

Purchase security equipment and install that sort of equipment in various areas, and that all makes a lot of sense. You want to try to keep that from happening anywhere and. Really, it could happen anywhere. I guess I was kind of naive in thinking that the worst thing that could happen to a cemetery would be the bronze doors would be stolen from the mausoleums, which happened a lot around the Philadelphia area about two years ago.

It just never occurred to be that people would go further than that and [00:20:00] desecrate. These burial spots to the extent that this guy did. 

Jill: I was shocked when I heard it, and I know people that have skulls in their home that they have purchased one person. His house is full of a bunch of different things, and we actually had a conversation once.

I didn't think it was legal to buy these things. And it's like it is legal as long as you go through the right channels. And now I, I have rethought some of that 'cause I had thought to myself like, oh, that'd be neat to have a skull. And of course I always joke and I tell my husband that if he dies before me, that I'm gonna keep his skull and put it on our fireplace mantle.

But now I don't know if I would do that after learning that. I don't know how common it is, but it. I don't know. 

Ed: I think that what you said about making people have second thoughts about that sort of thing, owning a skull or selling human remains or something like that. Maybe that's a good thing that comes of [00:21:00] this, that people will all of a sudden have.

Reservations or second thoughts about that sort of thing and not treat it as lightly as some people do. And as far as Mount Mariah goes, it may be a good thing for the cemetery that people are paying closer attention to it because for years we have been trying to get people to, uh, help out, donate their time and money to keep the place intact.

And make improvements so that it could become a green space for the neighborhood to enjoy. And I really don't know that anybody that I worked with ever thought that something like this would happen. 

Jill: I know Mount Vernon Cemetery was one of the ones that had some of their mausoleum doors stolen after they had some press in the newspaper.

It's unfortunate for so many reasons. But I know [00:22:00] they're also trying to make their cemetery more into a green space for the neighborhood, and I think that's such a beautiful idea to. Make it more welcoming. 'cause that is one thing, cemeteries, they do take up a lot of space that is really not being used by the community other than putting the person there.

But you don't see a lot of folks. That's part of why I actually like cemeteries. 'cause when I go, there's usually not a lot of people, but it's unfortunate that it does take up some spaces that could be. Used by a community. So for Mount Mariah, what are they gonna do? Laurel Hill does events and things at their cemetery.

Do you think they would do something along those lines, or what's their thoughts of making it more community oriented? 

Ed: Mount Mariah has been doing that sort of thing for off and on over the last 10 years. Probably in the last five there has been a concerted effort toward larger events, [00:23:00] having larger events, the.

Money that people donate and for things like art shows and concerts and things like that. So at Mount Mariah, it's a little different than Laurel Hill because Laurel Hill has fencing and a gate, and they have hours when they are open. They have security and they actually have someone living there 24 7.

They have an onsite security. Person and Mount Mariah has not gotten to the point where they have enough funds to afford that. The events that have happened are both small and large, some arts and craft show that they have in the fall. Can easily draw 5,000 people. Then there are smaller events like tours and there are things like National Ice Cream Day [00:24:00] when the people from Bassett's Ice Cream whose ancestors are buried there will bring an ice cream truck out and there will be a small event and maybe a hundred people and they'll give out ice cream sandwiches.

And a lot of these happen within. Plain view of King Sussing Avenue, so the public sees what's going on and people are invited into to participate. 

Jill: I know Mount Vernon was recently, it wasn't necessarily technically abandoned, but for all intents and purposes it was basically abandoned. Is there still more cemeteries around Philly or like in the city or around the city?

That are abandoned. And is there any that people are trying to bring back in some form? 

Ed: Well, there are a handful that are sort of in various degrees of teetering on existence maybe so. Gladwin has [00:25:00] a Jewish cemetery that was called Har Has Team, and that was abandoned back in 1946 I think. Oh, and that has been just grown over for decades.

And the Beth David Reform. Congregation took over the ownership of that property, I think maybe 10 years ago, and they are restoring that property, which was an absolute mess. So the tombstones there are actually. Being restored individually, one stone at a time. It's a, that's a fascinating situation where people are putting an enormous amount of time and effort and money into this memory place.

This cemetery, which was started and I, I think 1898, and there are other cemeteries that are, they [00:26:00] appear to be intact. But I would say that if you're ever driving past a cemetery and the grass seems to be high and not cut, that to me seems to be a good indication that there are financial problems, and that cemetery is really on the brink of bankruptcy.

So there is a cemetery ha Yehuda. In Upper Darby, which has been in that predicament for a couple years now. Usually a bunch of volunteers get together form a friends group to cut the grass and try to do some maintenance, maybe a little bit of security, and that cemetery is. Not doing so well, not really sure what, what will happen to that.

There are other situations like the one that you may have heard about in Plains pa up near Wilkesboro, where somebody supposedly purchased [00:27:00] a cemetery at an auction as a piece of property. Did not realize that it was a cemetery. So this is called Good Shepherd Memorial Park and that situation, or is this small cemetery with a big community mausoleum that is falling apart and there's an owner, but the owner's really not interested in doing anything with the property.

The owner. Paid for it and would like to get their money back, I guess. But they're stuck with it. And at the same time, all these local residents and descendants that have loved ones buried in the cemetery and in the Crips of the community mausoleum, they're just watching the. Place fall apart. And for every abandoned cemetery, there's a unique story.

People ask me, you know, how do cemeteries get abandoned? And I think for everyone that's out there, there's a whole different story. [00:28:00] Mount Mariah was an absolute unique situation where all the board members that originally were part of the cemetery died off, and that was the end of that. And around 20. 10, 20 11, the place just became an overgrown wilderness and, and so yeah, there are a handful around Philadelphia that people are actually trying to keep intact and preserve the historical value.

Keep it as some sort of a green space for the public and maybe even turn it back into an active burial ground. Like Ed Bixby, the guy who purchased Mount Vernon Cemetery. That's his intent. So he's planning on having green burials on that site at some point in the near future. His expectation is that that will help pay for the upkeep of the [00:29:00] cemetery.

And he's done that with I think about 14 other cemeteries around the US over the last couple years. So that's a way to keep them intact, but it takes a lot of work. 

Jill: Yeah, I had Ed on the podcast before he officially announced that that was what he was doing. He was talking about this project that he was getting ready to get involved in, but didn't actually say the name of it.

And I know there is such a interest nail in green burial. 'cause a lot of people, they don't want traditional burial. They don't want the embalming and then they learn how. That for the environment being cremated is, and so green burial is I think going to be something that more and more people want. So I'm sure having another space in Philly where that's an option, I could imagine it's going to be popular as I know Mount Laurel does it, but the space that they have is limited for green burials.

'cause a lot of places the [00:30:00] traditional burial is. What was always there, and so adding in a green burial is a little bit harder for some cemeteries. 

Ed: It is true. I know both Laurel Hill and West Laurel Hill have green burial spaces now, and I'm not sure how active they are, how popular they are, but it is a way to make this available to people who want it for whatever reason.

I think it kind of covers the base where. You could put some sort of a grave marker there. The person may not actually be buried right under that marker, but if you need a tangible place to visit your loved one, a actual property to stand on and look down. That that covers that base. I know there are cremation gardens in various cemeteries where there are actual grave markers for the person who is buried in the urn under the ground.

So unlike [00:31:00] things like scattering ashes at sea, sky burials or something like that, it seems like a lot of people just want to have some tangible reminder of where that person. Was buried so that they could visit. I never really understood the burial at sea thing. I interviewed a guy in Southern California who does that, and that's a big deal and a lot of people do it, and that's his full-time business.

He buries at sea. When I was interviewing him, I was just thinking about, well, how do people feel about that? It's like blasting your loved one's ashes off into space or toward a star or something, and you have no. Tangible reminder or remembrance of that personal place to visit. I think that's part of the reason that.

People are so intrigued by those tombstones that were discarded on the shore under the Betsy Ross Bridge. Those grave markers just take on the personality of the [00:32:00] person who it's supposed to be in memory of. When you look at a grave marker in an antique shop for sale, you just get a weird feeling and it's difficult to explain why we feel that way.

A lot of research has been done as to why psychologically grave markers have such a deep meaning for us. And we brought this practice from Europe when the continent was first settled. People in Europe buried their loved ones in the ground. So we continued to do that and we still do that. And so will it eventually evolve into lots of green burials?

It might. 

Jill: And now every time I drive over the Betsy Ross Bridge, I'm gonna be like trying to look like, Ooh, do I see any down there? 

Ed: Well, don't look, don't take your eyes off the road. You cannot see them from up on the bridge. You have to go down to the waterline. 

Jill: [00:33:00] That is so interesting, and we are getting towards the end of our time.

We're not quite there yet, but I wanted to ask again just a little bit more about your book and then if you can tell me where people can find it and all those things. I'll put links. To all of it in the show notes, but you said your book, you aren't just focused on the Philly area or the book itself is about the Philly area, but you had also just found other abandoned cemeteries around the United States.

Ed: Thank you for putting the link in for the book. It is available at all online retailers and it is mainly focused on Philadelphia and surrounding areas, maybe 10 miles outside of the Philadelphia area. No further than. So I needed to kind of confine my topic. I also exhibit artwork, and one of the things I learned early on is if you're going to do a gallery show of your work, you have to have a very finite [00:34:00] theme.

That's difficult if you're an artist, also, if you're an author. So the book is mainly about abandoned and forgotten cemeteries in and around the Philadelphia area. There are other topics covered that are related closely to that people don't think about, but these are things that I've run into as I've researched and photographed and studied these properties.

Things like genealogy and how do you keep, uh. Cemetery from falling apart and going bankrupt. And if the cemetery is filled up, how do you keep it in existence? So you mentioned earlier fundraising and events and things like that. If you have a historic cemetery that has no room for new burials, there's no income, that's it.

That would [00:35:00] kind of be. The basic thumbnail sketch, the reason that many cemeteries are abandoned, because if a cemetery fills up, there's no income. And if that happens, the owners are faced with some tough decisions and one of the options could be just walking away. Unfortunately that happens a lot. I do try to focus on some of the success stories in the book, like Aha.

Hasa team and Mount Vernon. And Mount Mariah and I give specific examples of the huge efforts that had been put forth by various people to, to stabilize and restore those properties. 

Jill: Yeah. 'cause it is a shame. To see them abandoned like that. There actually was one in Camden and it was interesting because.

I could never tell for sure if it was the same cemetery that they just [00:36:00] built a road through the middle, or if it was two separate cemeteries, but on one side of the street, it's all cut and clean and it was well taken care of. The other side was completely neglected and abandoned and overgrown. And I kind of wanted to go wander around in it just the way that it was 'cause I wanted to see it.

But a few years ago, I guess a group must have come in and cleaned it up 'cause it looks better now. But there is just something that I don't know, in some ways I find it beautiful when they're overgrown and neglected. But it's also really a shame, but it does make sense that if you have no income, how are you gonna pay to take care?

Especially when there's such big properties. It's not like you just go out there with a little push mower and you're mowing, and if you have the tombstones, you have to mow around them and it's gotta be a huge job just to take care of the land itself. That is fascinating, and I hope more places will do what they need to do.

Ed: Was that Evergreen Cemetery in Camden that you were referring to? 

Jill: It might be, it's right by the Paco [00:37:00] station that I go to. And I also work in Camden. So like I drive around through Camden. Harley's the one right across from the Paco. That one's really well cared for. That's where Walt Whitman's buried. I stumbled upon that grave one day when I was there wandering around the cemetery and I was like, what's that down there?

And drove around and I was like, oh, look at that. There's Wall Whitman's grave kind of hidden in a little spot there, but this other one. I don't know what it's called there. I'm sure there's a sign somewhere, but it's still in that same area. There's a lot of cemeteries in Camden. There's even one that I could see from the train that it doesn't seem to be abandoned, like the lawn's cut.

But those are really old tombstones. You could tell they're the real old ones. A lot are falling down though. They're not standing up. I wanna go wander around that one one day too and check that out. But I haven't gotten there yet. 

Ed: I am surprised that I've not run into you in a cemetery in Camden, because I also work in Camden.

Oh, really? So I've seen all these cemeteries. I think the one you're referring [00:38:00] to is called Old Camden Cemetery. I was really intrigued by that one probably about a dozen years ago, and I did some research because I thought. Well, so yeah, so like you said, somebody is cutting the grass, so somebody's doing something there.

Jill: Mm-hmm. 

Ed: And it's a relatively large property, but there seemed to be not that many grave markers. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Ed: So when I did some research, from what I've read, the reason there are not many grave markers is because the property is owned by the city of Camden. So over the years when grave markers would fall over, the city workers would take them and throw them in the river.

Jill: More grave markers in the Delaware River. I have noticed the same thing. It's a large piece of land and it looks basically like just lawn. And so I was like, that's weird that they have such a big place with not that many grave markers, but that would make sense. Interesting. 

Ed: So the other one that's down the road from there is [00:39:00] called Evergreen Cemetery.

Mm-hmm. And that one was falling apart for a while. I know some volunteers were trying to keep it intact and they were cutting the grass, but I think Harley Cemetery, which. You mentioned That's the cemetery where Walt Whitman is buried. They have been patrolling that for the last couple years. Okay. And doing some maintenance work.

So there is something going on there. I don't know if it's a formal relationship or if they just decided they don't want to see this go to pot. So they're helping out, 

Jill: I wanna know the history, I wanna know what happened. And that probably is it, you said it's called Evergreen now, the cemetery. Yeah. 

Ed: Yes, the one that you referred to, it looks like there's a road that.

Separates the two cemeteries. So that's new Camden Cemetery on one side, which I guess is owned by the city. Okay. And then there's Evergreen, which is on the opposite side, and that I think is a [00:40:00] private grounds private property. 

Jill: Next time I drive through that area, I will look at it a little bit closer.

This has been so great. I'm so glad that we met in person randomly at the punk rock Flea market, and I will put the links to your book. Also the episode that I did with Ed Bixby, I'll put a link in for anybody listening that wants to also listen to that one. We also talked about Mount Vernon. I'll put a link to that one, so anybody that's listening, if they want to check those out.

Actually, one last thing I wanna ask about, you said you lecture. Is that like open to the public anywhere in Philly? 

Ed: I have a couple scheduled for this year. They're on various topics. I typically do them at libraries, so those are usually free. And can be attended by the public. 

Jill: I'll put links to them as well so people can check it out.

Thank you. But thank 

Ed: you 

Jill: so much. This was lovely. I really enjoyed it. 

Ed: My pleasure. Thank you so much. If you've been 

Jill: listening to my podcast for a while and you hear [00:41:00] me and my guest talk over and over about how important it is to create a plan for the end of life and to have the conversations with your loved ones about what's important to you, and you're thinking, okay, maybe it's time.

Maybe I should actually sit down and figure this out instead of just hoping it all works out later. I get it. These conversations can feel overwhelming or scary or just like something you'll deal with another day, but you don't have to do it alone. If you want help creating an end of life care plan for yourself or for someone you love.

Maybe it's your aging parents, a spouse, whoever it is in your life. You can book a complimentary 30 minute call with me and we'll just talk. We'll get clear on what's going on for you and what the next right steps might be. There's no pressure. Just support the links in the show notes whenever you're ready.

And if this episode made you think of someone, a sibling, a friend, or another caregiver, feel free to share it with them. Sometimes these conversations are easier to start when someone else opens the door. First, thank you for being here. The fact that you're even willing to listen to this kind of conversation means a lot.

[00:42:00] I.