Death Doula Talk on Medical Aid in Dying and End-of-Life Planning with Joy Rodriquez

End-of-life doula Joy Rodriguez talks with me about death doula work and supporting people who choose medical aid in dying. Medical aid in dying is often misunderstood and can be hard to access even where it is legal, especially when it is difficult to find participating providers. Joy shares her path from hospice volunteering in Washington to serving as a volunteer client advisor with End of Life Washington, helping families locate eligible doctors, understand the process, and prepare for the day of death.

 She notes that hospice would not allow her to volunteer if she did that work. After moving to Hawaii, Joy saw how limited education and navigation support left many unaware of the law, so she now offers paid doula support with a sliding scale. They discuss emotional labor, the value of planning early, how a person’s “line in the sand” can change as illness progresses, and keeping clients as the “captains” of their own end-of-life choices.

00:00 Clients Captain Their Ship

00:20 Show Intro And Episode Setup

02:12 Joy Journey Hospice To Washington

05:34 Volunteering And Finding Providers

07:29 Pay Emotional Labor And Access

09:02 Paid Doula Work In Hawaii

15:24 Education Gaps And Public Awareness

17:16 Autonomy Misconceptions And Doctors

21:58 Planning Listening And Lines Shift

28:08 Doulas Versus Social Workers

33:52 Scope Of Practice And Captain Metaphor

41:18 Wrap Up And Where To Find Joy

42:24 Final Call To Action

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Transcript

Joy: [00:00:00] I find it very important that they are captaining their own ship. I'm not the captain and I really want to make sure that the paradigm stays in a place where my clients are the captains and I am. Their crew to support them. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death. Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and funeral celebrant.

Here on my show. We talk honestly about death, dying grief, and what it really means to live well. In this episode, I'm joined by end of life doula, Joy Rodriguez for a conversation about death doula work and specifically our work with people choosing to use medical aid and dying. We talk a little bit about what it is.

Why it's often misunderstood and how difficult it can be to access even where it's legal. Joy shares her journey from hospice, volunteering in Washington to supporting patients through end of life Washington, where volunteers help families navigate [00:01:00] medical aid and dying, find participating providers.

And prepare for the day of death After moving to Hawaii, she saw firsthand how lack of awareness and support leaves many people without options under the state's law. We also talk about the emotional labor of doula work while planning early matters and how a person's line in the sand can shift as 

Joy: illness unfolds.

This is a compassionate eye-opening look at choice, support, and dignity at the end of life. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. 

Jill: Welcome to the podcast, joy. I'm so happy you made it on today. I do apologize again, I'm a little stuffy, so if I sound a little weird, that's why, but. I know we met through Zoom in a group that talks about medical aid and dying, and so I'm excited to talk to you more about it.

I know it's a topic that there's a lot of misunderstandings, a lot of confusion, A lot of people don't fully understand it. And so I think the more that we can talk about it, the [00:02:00] more we can help people understand the realities of what it is, when it's used, how it's used, why it's used, all those things.

But if you wanna start us off, just tell me a little bit about you, where you're from, where you grew up, anything like that. 

Joy: Well, my name is Joy Rodriguez, and I grew up in the Santa Cruz mountains of California and spent some time in Sacramento, some time over in Minnesota, and made my way to Washington State where I started my end of life doula journey with training and hospice volunteering.

And then I was in a training with a sacred passing and they said, oh, you are east of the cascade. Have you heard of End of Life Washington and I never had. And End of Life, Washington is a group that helps with end of life choices in Washington state. And they said, fair warning, since you're east of the Cascades, if you choose to volunteer with End of [00:03:00] Life Washington, you won't be able to volunteer with your hospice anymore.

And I said, that's incredible. That can't be real. That absolutely can't be real. And so I approached my hospice and I said, Hey, I am thinking of doing this because they don't have enough volunteers East of the Cascades while you hospice. You guys have plenty of volunteers. So what do you think of that?

Will I still be able to volunteer with you? And they said, no, it does not align with our. Protocols. And so if you choose to volunteer with End of Life Washington, you will no longer be welcomed to volunteer with us. And so I said, well then that's an easy choice. So I started volunteering for End of Life Washington, and it was an incredibly rewarding experience to be a volunteer client advisor East of the Cascades, because it's [00:04:00] really, really hard to find providers there.

Because so much of the hospitals and medical practices are controlled by larger organizations that have certain rules and regulations to them, it was very rewarding to be able to help my clients match up with, um, providers that were willing. To participate in the law for medical aid and dying and to help them through that process.

And then it was time to move for my husband's job. We moved to Honolulu, Hawaii and it was a dream come true to be able to live in Hawaii. And I thought that that part of my life was over because I approached Compassion and Choices and they didn't have a volunteer program to help. Individuals. They had things set up for education of practitioners, but nothing for individual people.

And [00:05:00] so I said, oh, okay, well, we'll see how things shake out. And then one of my mentors in Washington, someone from. Hawaii had her first aid in dying was a, was a EP for her first aid in dying death. And she said she was worried. And so my mentor said, oh, joy just moved there. Have joy on your team. And so then here we are.

That was in 2020, early 2020 and here we are in 2026. And I've been doing aid and dying as a doula since then. 

Jill: And when you are a volunteer, is it volunteering to help match people that want medical aid and dying with the doctors? Is it giving them information? Like what is the volunteer role actually like, because I don't know if there's a volunteer organization in New Jersey that does that.

I actually have not really looked into it yet. So what do the volunteers do? 

Joy: That was for End of Life Washington. [00:06:00] So right now I am not a volunteer. I am a paid end of life doula, but when I was with End of Life, Washington, the volunteer client advisors would help patients try and find doctors that were willing to look at their medical records and prescribe based on eligibility, and they would help.

You know, there needed to be two doctors in Washington State and so they would help with that. And then education was a big piece of the puzzle, and day of death was a huge piece of the puzzle. 

Jill: So as a volunteer, you would do what you do now as a paid death doula. Wow. 

Joy: Yes. That was a very easy transition to this position, and it's unfortunately that we don't currently here in the state of Hawaii, have an organization that does support patients with volunteers.

However, I do provide a sliding scale, and if anyone is [00:07:00] unable to. You know, economics should never be a barrier to be able to access any law. And this law in particular, I feel strongly here, it's called the RKR Choice app. I feel very strongly that economics should never be a barrier to accessing it. And so it isn't as far as having a doula to help.

And there's a couple of other organizations that do navigation, and so they also help with helping people find providers to help them. 

Jill: Yeah, that's actually an interesting point that. If it's a law, we shouldn't have a barrier, such as the cost for people to be able to access it. I hadn't really thought of it that way.

And also, you know, this opens up a whole can of worms in general, but it's like the fact that they have volunteers sitting with people the day of. That's work you should get paid for. That is a lot of emotional labor. It is. I [00:08:00] mean, I've done it right. It is draining emotionally, physically, in some cases. If you're there for a long time and it's also probably gonna be 90% women and women's labor tends to not be valued and like, so in some ways I'm like, that's great that they have a volunteer organization in Washington State also.

I feel like maybe, you know, jumping on a couple calls with people, answering some questions. Sure. But expecting people to go and sit with somebody the day that they take the medication. Paid work that should be paid work. And so I'm glad you're getting paid for it now because Yeah. I mean, I just, again, I don't know this end of life work in general is a lot of women.

It's just kind of, you know. Tends to fall. That caregiving at the beginning of life and at the end of life is typically women's work. And I know a lot of the conversations in death doula circles is just about how hard it is to get people to value the work that we [00:09:00] do and to actually. Make a living off of it.

And so you are getting paid now for doing medical aid and dying with people. What does that aspect look like? Like do you help them find doctors still? Do they come to you after they found the doctor? Like how does that part work out? 

Joy: Yes, to both. Because I've been doing this for several years here in the state of Hawaii.

I tend to get. Referral clients rather than people finding me through my website or other ways. I'm mostly word of mouth, client base. And so because of that, some of them come after they've already found their providers. 'cause the providers identify them as as people in a situation. Would need that extra layer of support that a doula provides.

And some of them don't know where to start. And so they start by, someone heard that joy's a doula and why don't you try calling her up and see what happens from there. [00:10:00] And so yes to both. And to circle back to your comment about paid versus volunteer is a huge can of worms and it's really interesting.

Because there are several states that have robust nonprofits that include a volunteer program, and those volunteers are required to put in quite a few hours of volunteer time. And so it tends to limit not only, as you say, to quote women's work because. We tend to have more time that we can volunteer, but also to seniors, to an aging population because they also are a population that has time that they can volunteer without having to make money to feed their family.

So I tend to call this my heart work versus. My belly work [00:11:00] because I have not seen a sustainable model where it could fill my belly, and that's okay for me, but I think we should name it and acknowledge it, that this makes it not an obtainable profession for a lot of people, particularly people of color and win, and people who need to make a living and.

Being a doula, you're right. Is hard, hard work. But yes, thank you for naming that and it is a national discussion. I know that this is a discussion that takes place and that doulas, since their roles are unlicensed and uncertified be become, the scope of practice is defined by either the doula or the organization that they sign on to.

Right. And then it becomes less valued. 

Jill: Yeah. Ugh. It's such a, I'm like, I feel like we [00:12:00] could talk for hours just about that one thing in and of itself because Yeah, it is. It's so tricky where, I was actually talking to somebody this week and she said, you know, like, oh, is this the only work you do as a death doula?

And I was like, yeah, no. I have I think three part-time jobs now at this point. And in end of life work, I went back to working in kitchens. I'm teaching baking. I'm teaching surf safe. I read tarot cards. I dog sit and dog walk, and I do death do of work because even all of those things combined are still not bringing in what I would consider a full-time income.

Thankfully, because my husband gets a full-time income. It's not as much of a priority, but it's not livable by any means. And. It's frustrating because I just feel like it doesn't have to be this way. I think there is a way for doulas, even though [00:13:00] we're not considered licensed or certified under any type of organization, I think there's still roles for us.

But again, even with hospices, like you said, but the volunteers, right? So many organizations are like, well, we'll take volunteers. And I'm like, there's only so much time I can volunteer and I don't mind volunteering. Like you said, it's hard work like this. I'm not doing this work 'cause I wanna become like a millionaire.

But I also would like to be able to say I could afford to feed my family, which I can't. And so, I don't know. It's definitely a big discussion and I think that's where, you know, for you, do you do any what I would. Probably consider like quote unquote traditional adult traditional doula work, even though I can't spit that out.

Where you're working with clients, preparing them for the end of life, supporting them through like a natural death, not necessarily medical aid and dying, or do you just solely focus on medical aid and dying? 

Joy: The majority of my clients focus on [00:14:00] medical aid and dying, however. With that statement being said, I feel like I do do traditional doula work because there's a certain part of our population whom I adore who are.

What I would call planners. And so they think about, oh, I have a diagnosis that may become terminal, or that is definitely a terminal diagnosis, but I'm not stopping treatment anytime soon. I'm not seeing this happening next week, next month, maybe even not next year. And then those clients I do maintain for years.

And it's wonderful and heartbreaking because you get so intimately involved with them. Yeah. 

Jill: Yeah. And that is, I think one of the barriers as well to this work is that because it is so intimate. Unless we charge a lot, I don't see any way to take [00:15:00] on enough clients at once, even if they were there, right?

Even if I had people coming to me at the rate of clients that I would need to make even $40,000 a year, which is low livable wage, I don't know if I could take that many because it is so intimate and there's so much emotional labor that goes into that work. I guess that's where like do you do any paid educational things like personally, either through Zoom or out in your community or with assisted livings or libraries or anything like that?

Or do you just kind of focus on the doula work itself? 

Joy: I do do some education through other, usually through other organizations. I'm always happy to come in and do a talk. I generally don't charge for them. Here in the state of Hawaii, our law passed in 2019, which was right. Before [00:16:00] COVID. And so when it became legal to ingest life ending medication, first of all, our law did not include any funding for education of the general public, and we did not have any organization that was willing to put funding into education of the general public here.

But, and then COVID hit, and so all of. The airtime was taken up by a very real, very pandemic, and it was not all the air in the room was gone. Right? So a lot of the, our general public don't even know that this law is legal here. They say, oh, isn't that something that happens in Oregon? You know, is really, really a common.

Response when people say, Hey, I'm thinking about utilizing my end of life choices, right? So I do. I'm always willing to talk to [00:17:00] organizations, to groups, and I do not, I don't at this point charge anything for that. I feel like that's one of my give backs to the community because it's just not common knowledge around here.

Jill: I find the same thing in New Jersey that so many people I talk to don't know that it's legal in New Jersey, and even if they do know about it, there's just still so many misconceptions about what it is and how it works, and so. One of the clients actually, that I worked with through medical aid and diet, it started with a conversation with their doctor where they found out their cancer was not going to be curable, barely was gonna be treatable.

Kind of gave them that like, we're gonna give you maybe six months. And they said, you know, I really, I just wish there was like a pill I could take and just like end it. And the doctor was kinda like, actually. Not quite, [00:18:00] but kind of. But not all doctors would even bring it up to people. There's definitely, even within the medical community, varying opinions on medical aid and dying.

And I think some doctors feel that it goes against their hippocratic oath of do no harm. And I guess, you know, on one hand I can kind of understand that, but as somebody that watched a loved one go through cancer treatments. If you're gonna say do no harm, but then you're gonna put a nineties 3-year-old woman through what I saw them put my grandmother through.

I'm not sure that that works because I feel like there's no way that that doctor. Thought to themself, we're gonna cure this 93-year-old, but they still did the treatments anyway, and we didn't know any better at that time. And it was brutal, right? It was not, there was harm happening. And so, I don't know, it just, it [00:19:00] feels tricky to me, this whole thing.

And this is why I think it's important that people talk about it and that we have honest conversations and talk through all of it. I don't have answers. But I do like to have the conversations around it because I feel personally that if I was dying anyway, I wanna have control over when that is. And if I got to a point where I was suffering and my family was suffering, I would wanna have some control over when I ended that suffering.

But again, that's me. And that's maybe not everybody's choice and opinion. 

Joy: Personal autonomy, right? Yeah. To me, that's the forefront of any end of life choices is being able to have that personal autonomy of choosing if this law. Is the right thing for you and your family to utilize, or if it isn't, but that's the crux to me of personal autonomy, is to be able [00:20:00] to make your own choice and not someone else making that choice by withholding information from you.

Yeah, and I'm sorry you went through that with your grandmother. That sounds brutal. 

Jill: Yeah, it was not ideal. It's what set me on this path though, to become a death doula because I realized. We did not have the right questions. We did not have the right answers. We didn't have the right support. I was confused.

I was overwhelmed like all of this stuff. And when hospice finally got involved, I was like, oh, thank God. There's people that are showing up now and helping me understand what's going on and supporting us and making sure she's clean and comfortable and all these things that I couldn't do. So I love hospice.

I cannot say enough good things about hospice. Also, they can't do everything, and I think end of life doulas, we have a place in the end of life, and not just end of life. Because again, that's the thing, [00:21:00] hospice doesn't come on until somebody is, you know, six months or less. They have to stop treatment.

It's not like. With death, doulas. 'cause you even mentioned planning, you know, and I feel like this is a great time to talk about planning about people's choices and what it is that they want. And I have so many people that when I talk to them, they'll say, well, I'm not ready for a doula yet. And I'm like, well, kind of.

We need to have this conversation sooner than later. Like, don't wait until mom or you are at your point in your journey. Where you're like, okay, I think nail is like the end. I could still help, but really, ideally, let's have these conversations. Now let's talk nail, let's plan nail for what's important to you so that we can try to make sure that you get the care that you want at the end of your life.

But if we don't plan for it, and if we wait, it just makes it harder. So when you plan with [00:22:00] people. What does that process look like for you and your clients? Again, just planning for what's important to them at the end of their life. 

Joy: A lot of listening. I think it includes a lot of listening, a lot of active listening with the feedback to them, what they're saying to you and you.

Is this what your. Saying is important, really trying to help them clarify their thoughts on truly important to them, because that's one of those unique things about having a medical aid and dying option on the table is that. You can figure out what is really important to you and what you're willing to let go.

So I've had people that said, it is vitally important to me that I'd be able to leave my house, go to my yoga classes, go out every [00:23:00] day. This is my line in the sand. The minute I can't go to the. Jim, I'm done. I love my body. I think I'm a sexy creature. And the minute I can't have my body be what I want it to be, I'm done with this.

And that was one of my long-term clients and he ended up using a walking stick and carefully making his way gently. To the gym once a week and standing there and watching other people work out and giving tips. And for him that was enough. So that line in the sand moved for him. You know, which I think is important to understand too, is that even as you suss it out, these checking back ins of what is important to you changes.

Right. But for him still, he still is like, I am a social creature. [00:24:00] I need to be around my people. And when my world becomes not being able to. Be out and about and around my people. That's it. And he had the most wonderful, this particular client had the most wonderful living wake where everyone celebrated him and roasted him, and he was blissed out and he had exactly what he wanted.

And it included a lot of coordination and a lot of love from a lot of different directions. And I think that doulas are integral to that, to that coordination. The listening. 

Jill: Yeah. I love that idea of doing the celebration now, letting people say to you now the things that they would say at your funeral.

And I think that's a lot of the work that I feel like I do when I am talking to people, just even out in public or a lot of the message that I [00:25:00] say on my podcast is, let's not wait until the end. Be present. Let's show up and tell the people that we love, how much we love them and how much we appreciate them.

And it's changed the way that I live my life by becoming okay with the fact that one day it's gonna end. It doesn't mean that I want it to end soon, but I know that I have no control over it. So I'm gonna show up fully now. And I love how you said about listening. It seems like that's been one of the biggest things that I've had clients say to me.

Not even just clients, I've been like out in public and I've had on like a shirt that'll have either the name of my podcast or the name of my business. And so people are like end of life clarity or seeing death clearly. Like what is that? What does it mean? And so the folks that want to talk to me about it, they'll talk to me and they'll say things that other people.

Are afraid to talk about or to [00:26:00] listen Again, I'm not even necessarily talking to them. Sometimes I'm just listening to what they're talking about and they'll say like, other people think I'm crazy if I try to say these things or that I'm being morbid or whatever else, and I'm like, I don't know. It's just we need to have these conversations.

So giving folks that space to talk about what's important to them without coming back and saying. Like I have somebody that I talked to the other day that cancer treatments are seeming like they're not going as well as they want to. Again, really hard on their body. It's not an ideal situation. They're getting to the point where they're starting to talk to the doctor about like, what's next?

Because it doesn't seem like this is going great. I'm not afraid to die. So what's next? Well, then they called in the social worker because the person's quote unquote suicidal. Because they're not afraid. They're not afraid to die. They don't necessarily want to continue the [00:27:00] treatments, and part of me is like, okay, maybe this is protocol.

Maybe the doctor has to, when somebody says certain things, but then the person said to me, it's so nice to have somebody that when I say I'm not afraid to die. And maybe I would look into medical aid and dying or going to Vermont because it's not legal in my state, so I can't do it here. But maybe I would go there that they're not judging me and they're not treating me like I'm insane, like I'm crazy, like I'm suicidal.

When really the reality is I don't think this is working, and if it's not gonna work any longer, like I don't wanna continue down this path. It's so frustrating. But that's again, I think a role that we can fill where maybe, sure, maybe doctors, they need to call in the social worker. Maybe they need to go down all these paths.

But then why not have a doula on staff so that when somebody wants to have this hard conversation about if treatment's not working, [00:28:00] maybe it's time for me to stop, even if I know that that means I'm gonna die sooner than later. I don't know. Again, I don't have answers. I just have more questions. 

Joy: Well, I've worked with some really fabulous social workers and I think that particularly oncology, social workers are gifts from heaven.

And it might've been the protocol of that. Uh, hard to say what the doctor was thinking because I don't know that organization at all. But I would expect that when people graduate out of their chemotherapy. And get to a place where there's no longer medical treatments that are effective against their cancers, that that is usually when the social worker starts arranging hospice.

And so I would expect that it would be his protocol when someone says, I don't want to continue treatments that he calls in the social worker. 'cause they usually are the [00:29:00] ones that make all of the arrangements to head over to hospice care. 

Jill: And I wasn't there for the actual conversation, so you're right.

I mean, maybe the goal of the social worker was to start the hospice conversation. Maybe they didn't get there this time. I don't know. Because yeah, I think, you know, social workers are, you're right. They're like angels. They're amazing. I've worked with many through palliative cares and hospices and even the law office that I work with, they have, I don't even know how many that, again, they don't call them social workers.

Through the law office. They're like care coordinators or something like that. But they're all trained social workers and they're amazing. I think they do really great work. 

Joy: She's, and I wonder something to explore in our wonderings is where that role of the doula versus the role of the social worker in a well-supported care team, where they overlap and where one is different.

Than the other, because [00:30:00] what I've found in the cases where you have a well-supported family with strong social work support, either from hospice or from the medical team, depending on their disease progression, that I as a doula fill a different role because those social workers, at least here in this state, are incredibly overworked.

And they have so many patients. While I can only really handle three to four clients at a time, like you said, it's too heavy to sustain as a living wage. For me, that's three to four clients. Anything above that, I start not giving them the service that I want to provide to them. So yes, I'm with you. And I wonder though if that's where the overlap that we are.

Similar, but we're not licensed like the social workers. We don't have our masters, we don't have our licensed clinical social work [00:31:00] degree. We don't have all of those other things that social workers do have that we should acknowledge their profession has. But we do have the time and the ability to listen.

Jill: Yeah, and that's where, you know, again, at least through the law office that I work with, one of the social workers is also an end of life doula. But you know, she's the one that kind of got me involved because she said I can't do both for a client because the role of the death doula is not to recommend.

I think listening to what you said, you should do this, this, and this. Whereas a social worker, that's partially the role that she fills is all right. After hearing what you said, I think we should fill out this application. I think we should look into this organization, right? Like their role is definitely a little bit different.

And so I think in some ways that is still a role that a doula can fill throughout the whole end of life care spectrum. Again, whether [00:32:00] it's working with palliative care teams or working with hospices or working with elder care attorneys. Just kind of being that person. Where now I find through the law office, at least the people that I am getting recommended to it is more just like they need somebody to talk to about the fears, the anxieties.

You know, somebody's on hospice, somebody's getting transferred on to hospice. What does that look like? Just kind of being that space to have. A conversation so that they feel supported. Where I am not the one that's saying, oh, you should do this thing. But then in some cases there was somebody that I worked with where I did reach out to their social worker and say, I think it's time to really have the hospice conversation, because based off of what I'm hearing.

I think it might be time. And so then together we kind of had a conversation of [00:33:00] like, is this the right time to recommend hospice? How do we get the person? And so they were the ones that helped get the person connected to the right hospice for them based off of where they were living or whatever else.

So, I don't know. I mean, I do, I think we fill a really important role. But it is hard to find that place where, again, we could get paid for not just volunteer. And again, I have nothing against volunteering. I mean, I volunteered in multiple hospices and hospitals. I feel like my podcast is volunteer work.

You know, I don't make any money on this, if anything, I pay to have the podcast hosted and all that stuff. But I feel like it's important that we have these conversations. So I love to do it. But yeah, again, there has to be that balance between paid work and the work. That I give because I want to.

Joy: Absolutely. And it is a challenge we all face, and I think a reminder too is warranted in this case that the scope of [00:34:00] practice of a doula is what the doula or the organization that they practice under define it as. And that flexibility is one of the major advantages of being unlicensed and uncertified.

The minute we put ourselves in that box, we lose that flexibility. So under your hat, as a doula for your law office, you are placed in a role where you do not suggest things. You leave it to the social worker to suggest. Paths under my practice as a doula that has its own LLC, I know that people are coming to me because they would like their options laid out to them.

And so for them to say something like, well, what would you recommend? You caveat things, right? Well. Maybe this, but [00:35:00] if you think about that, then maybe kind of, right? So you want to make sure that they are making their own choice, or that I make sure that I am standing beside someone who's making their own autonomous choices.

But at the same time, I recognize that the reason why I'm standing next to them. Instead of someone else is because I've walked this path that they haven't walked yet, and that's why they're asking me to walk beside. 

Jill: Yeah, and that's where having these conversations earlier as well allows us to get to know somebody, what's important to them, what do they care about so that when they have to make some of these decisions, we can take the information that we have learned from them in the past and say.

Alright. Maybe it is time to start looking at these different options because we're not just recommending it based off [00:36:00] of, you know, again, like my profession says that when you get to this point you should do X, Y, and Z. It's like, well no, we had this conversation and I think maybe it's time for us to start thinking about these things.

'cause when you do your conversations with people, do you actually write it down as like a plan? Is it more just like. Sometimes I've said to people, I'm almost like a life coach, but end of life where I am gonna. Sit and talk and listen to you, and I'm gonna maybe help you work through some things. But I'm not a therapist.

I'm not a counselor. It's definitely more like a life coach, but you know. Is that something where you just mainly listen and talk or do you actually write out a full plan? How's that part Look? 

Joy: For me, I don't have a formal plan that I write out with people. I think a lot of it is listening. I do try and note things.

I try and bring to the forefront, Hey, I heard you say this. [00:37:00] It's this. So that. More often than not, it's not. More often than not, I find it very important that they are captaining their own ship. And so when I went and saw my attorney to set up my will and my trust, I felt very much that she was guiding the ship that we were navigating through to get to the end result of having a binder that had everything legal in place.

And that was good because that was the role that I had hired her to do for my family. But as a doula, I don't, I'm not the captain and I really want to make sure that the power dynamic stays in a place where my clients are the captains and I am their crew. To support them. And so I don't, I don't put together a life plan and I think that, that you do is, is admirable [00:38:00] and also, and also well within your personal scope and, and probably exactly what your clients are looking for.

It just doesn't seem like that's for me where, where I'm going with it. Yeah, 

Jill: yeah. No, and I actually like the way that you worded that about letting them be the captain. Because I have had this. Come up where there's a client that I've been working with now for a couple of years. Originally they only were supposed to have six months, tried an experimental treatment, have now been around three years longer, which is wonderful.

I'm certainly not complaining. It's 

Joy: wonderful. 

Jill: And I still, we meet once a week. We still talk about treatment and how the treatment's going, and now they're starting to feel things shift and change, right? So I'm still supporting them through what I would consider my scope of practice. And they also see a regular therapist, which is wonderful because I'm not a therapist.

And they said to me one day, so my therapist wants to know what we're working on [00:39:00] together. And I said, well, I mean we're not really working, quote unquote working on anything together. Like I'm here for you to just talk about whatever it is that you need to talk about. And they've mentioned that more than once.

Like their therapist wants to know what I'm working on with them. And I'm like. Well, I mean, is there something you want to work on? Like do you wanna do a legacy project? Like is the, if there's something you wanna work on, fine, but I don't feel that there's something specific at this point in their journey that we need to be working on.

Again, like we talk through what's going on. Sometimes their treatment makes 'em really sick. They don't think they want to do it. Sometimes then they go back to like, well, maybe I should, because the doctor says if I stop, then like, you know, so like if they bring that up and we talk it through, fine. But there's times I'm like, we just talk about other stuff that's going on in their life and going on in the world.

And I did feel a little bit of, I dunno if it's imposter [00:40:00] syndrome, it just, it felt weird that their therapist wants to know what we're working on. And I'm like, look, I'm not, I'm not, I'm therapist. I'm, I'm here for you. I'm here to support you with whatever it is. So whatever it is that you wanna talk about or work through, and if you don't wanna make an appointment next week because you feel fine.

Then we don't have to have an appointment. We can spread it out every six months. I'll be here to work at your rate. So I like the way that you said that about letting them be the captain of their ship. I'm not here to force you to work on some specific thing with me and to write out a plan or do if somebody wants to.

Sure. But yeah, I don't know. That was weird to me where I didn't know how to answer that in some ways where I was just like. Is there something you want to do? We can do it if you want to. I don't know. So, 

Joy: well, I don't think you're imposter, and I can see where you feel that way, but perhaps the therapist was feeling threatened.

Perhaps. Perhaps. I wonder. [00:41:00] But yeah, it's that. Interesting thing about the scope of practice for a doula, right? The scope is what you define it to be, and for you with this particular client, that scope is a once a week check-in, right? So, 

Jill: yeah. Well, we're getting at the end of our time. Why don't you tell us where people can find you?

If you have a website, it's social media, anything like that that you wanna direct people towards? 

Joy: Okay. Well, thank you very much, Jill, for taking your time and for giving this hard work to our community. Thank you for the national voice that you're giving to doulas. I greatly appreciate your podcast. I am Joy Rodriguez.

I live in Oahu, Hawaii. My website is honolulu death doula.com, and my company name is Burden Lifters. LLC. So thank you again for [00:42:00] having me on your podcast. 

Jill: Oh, thank you so much for coming on. And I will put links to all that in the show notes so people can easily find you. But thank you, joy. This is a good conversation.

I like to talk these things through because there is no easy answers to it. So the more that I talk about it and the more that people get to listen to our conversations, I think the better. We will all be for it. So thank you, 

Joy: thank you. 

Jill: Thank you for joining us for today's conversation. If you're listening to this and you're thinking, okay, maybe it's time, maybe I should actually sit down and figure this out instead of just hoping it all works out later, I get it.

These conversations can feel overwhelming or scary or just like something you'll deal with another day, but you don't have to do it alone. If you want help creating an end of life care plan for yourself or for someone you love, maybe if you're aging parents, a spouse. Whoever it is in your life, you can book a complimentary 30 minute call with me and we'll just talk.

We'll get clear on what's going on for you and what the next right steps might be. There's no pressure. Just support [00:43:00] the links in the show notes. Whenever you're ready. And if this episode made you think of someone, a sibling, a friend, or another caregiver, feel free to share it with them. Sometimes these conversations are easier to start when someone else opens the door.

First, thank you for being here. The fact that you're even willing to listen to this kind of conversation means a lot.