Innovations in End-of-Life Care with Funeral Director Ken Biery

In this episode of Seeing Death Clearly, host Jill McClennen, a death doula and funeral celebrant, is joined by Ken Biery, a seasoned funeral director and founder of the Funeral Service Collective. Ken shares his journey from military service into the funeral profession and the experiences that shaped his commitment to innovation and family-centered care.

Together, they explore how the funeral industry is evolving, including emerging ideas such as sustainable memorials, underwater cemeteries, and the growing role of live-streamed services. The conversation also highlights how younger generations’ desire for meaningful, personalized experiences is reshaping traditional funeral practices.

A central focus of the episode is the potential for collaboration between funeral directors and death doulas. Ken and Jill discuss how these roles can complement one another by offering emotional, spiritual, and educational support to families, and they outline practical ways death doulas can begin building relationships with funeral homes. This episode offers thoughtful insight into how collaboration can strengthen end-of-life care and better serve communities.

00:00 Introduction to Compassionate End-of-Life Care

00:39 Meet Ken Beery: A Journey from Military to Funeral Service

00:55 Innovations in the Funeral Industry

03:08 The Role of Death Doulas in Funeral Services

08:47 Challenges and Opportunities for Collaboration

17:59 The Importance of Personalized Memorials

24:02 Collaborating with Funeral Homes

25:02 Building Referral Partnerships

26:48 Addressing Certification Concerns

32:18 The Importance of Teamwork

35:25 Generational Differences in the Industry

38:14 The Role of Technology

43:24 Concluding Thoughts and Contact Information

https://thefunsc.com/

https://www.instagram.com/funeralservicecollective

https://www.facebook.com/funeralservicecollective

Transcript

Ken: [00:00:00] Ultimately, we're all trying to show compassion and care to those who've lost a family member, either as a funeral director or as a death doula. We're all serving the same basic human need, and that is care and compassion with clarity at the end of someone's life. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly.

I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula, and recently a funeral celebrant. On this show, I sit down with guests to have honest, thoughtful conversations about death, dying grief, and life itself. My hope is to create an inviting space where you can question what you think you know and consider perspectives you may not have encountered before.

In today's episode, I'm joined by Ken Biery, a seasoned funeral director and the founder of the Funeral Service collective. Ken shares his journey from Kentucky to Colorado, his background in the military, and the experiences that shaped his approach to funeral service. We talk about the innovations in the industry from sustainable memorials [00:01:00] and underwater cemeteries to the growing importance of live streamed services.

We also explore how funeral directors and death doulas can work together in meaningful collaborative ways to better serve families at the end of life. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. 

Jill: Welcome, Ken to the podcast. Thank you for coming on. I know a little bit about you because we actually met in person at the New Jersey Funeral Directors Conference.

We chatted for a little while there. And we just thought that it was such a great conversation that I invited you to come on the podcast. So thank you for being here. 

Ken: No, my pleasure. 

Jill: Just start us off. Tell us a little bit about who you are, where you're from. 

Ken: I'm originally from Kentucky. I live in Colorado now, just north of Denver.

I started my career as a funeral director in Kentucky. I've been a funeral director for 28 years now. I started out serving in the military as a combat medic, and after the Gulf War I came home and I went to mortuary [00:02:00] college at Cincinnati College of Mortuary Science and started my career in Northern Kentucky.

And so I've done everything from being a funeral director on Balmer to manager to, uh, regional manager of multiple locations. I got to a point. Jill, in my career, I, I felt like we could do things better as an industry, and I felt like there was something missing. So I decided to go back to college because I had my associate's degree in mortuary science and I about to concentrate my, my bachelor's degree.

And while I was there, I realized that the things that were missing were. Innovation and probably a little more focus on how we serve families with different programs, ideas. So I came back to Northern Colorado where we've been living for a while, and I started my funeral home consultancy group, the funeral service collective.

I shifted pretty quickly to really focus on innovation and programs to help funeral homes serve families better, to bring in revenue. [00:03:00] I. An out of the box thinker. I look at things a lot different than 99% of every funeral director I've ever met. And when I met you, I was really intrigued because I actually spoken to a few death doulas in the past.

I feel like there's a real possible symbiotic relationship between what funeral directors do and what you guys do. Of course. I feel like that's not maybe the common thought, especially among funeral homes and funeral directors, but. I think that it could be a win-win if we work together. So that's kinda my background and where I'm at right now.

Jill: Yeah, and I agree with you. I think it is a win-win if we can work together and thank you for your service in the Gulf War. You know, that was definitely a time that I remember, I was not too old, but I was old enough to understand what was going on, so thank you for that. When you started in the funeral industry, what were some of the things.

That you [00:04:00] started to realize could maybe be done a little bit differently, and have you seen any changes made to some of those things already over the years? 

Ken: Yeah, I think initially when I got into the industry, it took a couple years to really see what families were wanting and how trends were changing.

I saw a long time ago the disposition there were, you know, we had barrel and cremation and that was really about it. But I. You know, there's so many new things to do with natural organic reduction, alkaline hydrolysis. There's so many things you can do now, I have a client in Spain that I visit quite often, and we're doing underwater cemeteries on the coast of Spain, the memorial parks, and you can scuba or snorkel to see your loved one grave.

And it's a. We had to restore a reef that's been damaged. It brings back local fish and coral, and it's a beautiful sustainability project. I feel like those things are just now coming about, but they've been needed for quite a while. 

Jill: I know there's one somewhere in New Jersey, like off the [00:05:00] coast of Jersey.

Mm-hmm. It's like these big concrete balls. It 

Ken: just looks like, yeah, it's, it's called a reef ball. The biggest one is in Miami, but other ports along the ocean have some kind else of this. Ours is a little different where we focus more on sustainability and rebuilding a reef. We look for certain sites, not just anywhere off the coast, right, where shipping is, or human have destroyed a reef, and we try to.

Create ours in that situation, so we can bring that back. So, but yeah, there is, they're, they're all over the world. 

Jill: Do the ashes go. Into the concrete that makes the reef fall or are they inserted in the little capsule into the ball? Yeah. How's that part work? 

Ken: They're actually mixed into the concrete. It's petroleum free concrete, so it's safe for marine life, so it's just mixed into it and put into a mold and it becomes part of the structure itself.

Your ashes do, we're actually working with a university in Cadis, Spain that's working with sugar beets to create a sustainable concrete out of sugar beets, and we're gonna [00:06:00] be testing that in our site as well. So there's no concrete, no manmade materials in this. It's all natural. 

Jill: Yeah. It's fascinating.

Sugar beets. Interesting. Yeah. See all the things we don't know about. What are some of the things that you've started to hear about or see that you think are exciting new innovations that might be coming to us or are already starting to come to us? 

Ken: Sure. I, I know IFI really feel that live streaming is so important and that really started when COVID.

Came into play because very few funeral homes knew what live streaming was. But we had to turn to that to facilitate funerals because we were restricted on how many people could attend live. Streaming is still a very large part. It needs to be, I think, larger. It has such great impact for people who really can't be there because of our society.

Everybody's moved to different cities, states, countries, and people may not feel well enough to go to a funeral release they can watch. So I think livestream is important. I feel. That there's [00:07:00] really good memorialization right now. I work with a company called IMO, which is instant messaging obituary. When someone passes, often people have to find what funeral home they're at.

They have to either read in a paper. Most people don't read the paper anymore. They go online, they do a search and they can get all kinds of hits and different things. It's nice to get directly to the source. So what What this company does is they create a text message, mini obituary, which just has a service details, but it's sent to the family and they can immediately send it out to as many a thousand people.

A hundred people could get it within a very short time, and they'll be able to read the details and have a link to send them back. To the funeral home's actual website. They're getting the right information. It also gives 'em an opportunity to send a sympathy card at that moment when they are reading that obituary, which is wonderful because that card is printed, it's got handwriting fonts.

You can personalize it. It's put into an envelope, it's stamped address it, mailed to the family. It's kind of old [00:08:00] fashioned, but it's wonderful. No e-card, you know? And you can actual. And they use real card designers. It's really a beautiful thing. So I think that's the memorialization type property that have come forward as well.

I also believe that anything that engages the families with the funeral home and the families in grief are a game changer. And there's a lot of those products out there now, some of that is digital. Some of it is gifts. I think that's really important part because ultimately we're all trying to show compassion and care to those who've lost, either as a funeral director or as a family member, a deaf doula.

We're all serving the same basic human need, and that is care and compassion with clarity at the end of someone's life. 

Jill: Yeah, because there's definitely been some resistance to Dex Doulas, I think. To any established business, there's always gonna be resistance to new things, and I get [00:09:00] that. I understand that.

I don't take it personally, but I've also met a lot of resistance from hospice and from funeral directors and from really anybody that's already worked in this space. There's this idea that whatever death rule is due, they already do it, and so they don't need us. But in the long run, there's always holes that need to be filled.

There's those gaps because nobody's gonna be able to do all of it. And death doulas really do fill a lot of the gaps that exist. We wouldn't be around if there wasn't gaps to be filled, right? This would not be something that all of us would've started doing. That's how I got into it. I saw gaps. In my personal experience and thought, huh, all right, there's gotta be a better way to do this.

And so when we try to work with funeral homes, I mean, again, I haven't tried that hard. Some of this is just reading [00:10:00] things that have been posted online in groups or whatever else from funeral directors when it comes to death, doulas, there also is a death doula. I don't remember what state she was in that did get sued by a funeral home and it's now gone to the state Supreme Court.

This is not settled yet. We do have some overlap in the sense that we often help people pre-plan for the end of life. Mm-hmm. Which may include funeral planning, but it seems like it would be a good thing to find death doulas that you could work with that can help. Direct people towards your funeral home, and then you can take it over from there.

So in your experience, what have you seen that maybe are some gaps that death doulas might be able to fill in the funeral industry? 

Ken: That's a great question. I believe that if you look at different rules for funeral directors, we've got the legal, logistical. Part of the funeral. That's what [00:11:00] we do. There's a lot of care, there's a lot of personalization, a lot of your time that goes into serving families, but I feel like death deal is probably.

Are better at handling the emotional, the spiritual and educational side of death than we are when someone passes. We have a certain amount of time to complete paperwork, get things filed, schedule things, and move along a timeline in which certain tasks you have to be completed for a funeral to, to be complete and taking a place for a family.

But I think with death do is if, if they're early enough, which they can be, if it's a, a long. Illness, you know, terminal illness situation where they can spend a lot of time again with that spiritual, emotional, and educational side. And I think that's kind of the gap that we're missing. 'cause we have a, again, a certain timeline.

We gotta get this done by this date, it's Wednesday, I gotta get all this done in two, three days. So we don't always have the time to do it. So the gap we're, that's the gaps that we're missing is [00:12:00] probably that more intimate care. Situation that, that you're going to be in, then I would be in as a funeral director.

Jill: 'cause that is what we do. We are good at talking with people about the emotions that come with death and the beginning stages of grief when somebody has died and processing all of the emotions. We can definitely work together. I don't know if it would be something where. Having a death doula as a contracted employee, even if it's just to deal with the really, really difficult deaths, the difficult families, that there's maybe a lot of arguing amongst each other.

We're good at coming in and mediating a conversation between people. It's really just that they're grieving and so their emotions are coming up. So maybe that could be something that funeral homes. Could do rather than having one person like on staff at all time, but using us [00:13:00] as a, if needed, call us kind of basis.

Ken: Yeah, I would certainly agree. I've been in that situation with families where there's harsh feelings or separation among certain members and there's fighting. As a funeral director, that's very difficult because we're trying to accomplish. Certain goals in a certain timeframe. When that's happening, it's very hard to be in the middle of that.

We try not to be, because we're on the logistical side, we've gotta get these things accomplished and it's very difficult. So I think that's a great point, Jill. That is a great role for you as mediator for death tos. We try not to get involved in that. It's probably a little beyond most of us to do that.

And maybe we're not cut out for just because we've, we're busy with other things or emotionally not prepared for that. I feel like your training and personality will lend you to be a lot more open and easier to handle situations like that than we could so. I think it's a great idea. I see it also as funeral directors and a death dos [00:14:00] could do a lot of things together.

They could do educational programs together. They could do referral programs together. They could even help each other with revenue, with referrals, and helping each other that way as well. And I think that having a death do on staff's a brilliant idea, or at least someone that you have a relationship with that you can reach out to at that time.

That's a great innovation there, Jill. I like it. 

Jill: And that's why I love these conversations because it allows me to talk things through and think things and then we talk about it more. And you know, that's why I love my podcast so much. I get a chance to talk to people. My goal is always, like you said earlier, I think we all have the same goal when we're working in end of life care.

We wanna provide service to families during. Possibly the most difficult, if not one of the most difficult times in their life. Any way that we could do it to me, seems worth talking about and trying to come up with new ways to [00:15:00] support people, especially as the world changes. It's changing so fast that yes, we need to change with it.

Ken: I agree. 

Jill: Yeah. 'cause I know you mentioned the live streaming of funerals. I had never even heard of Zoom until the pandemic started. I was working in a kitchen. I didn't really. Use a computer too much. So I had never even heard of Zoom until then. And it does make a lot of sense to me because with today's world the way that it is, we move around so much.

We're not staying in the same places. I have friends literally all over the world at this point. So live streaming a service for the people that can't be there. Even now that the world has kind of gone back to a new normal, whatever that is, are you still seeing a lot of people using the live streaming services for funerals?

Ken: Not as much and and I, and I think that's really a failure on part of the funeral directors because our industry traditionally is not very open to anything new. [00:16:00] We love being a traditional industry. We say, Hey. We've done this for five generations, we're gonna do this the same way. And that's not really a healthy trend or a healthy business outlook for any business.

So I feel that a lot of funeral homes have walked away somewhat from live streaming because they don't see the value in it, but it really is still a need. Honestly, we are struggling as an industry with revenue because of cremation rates. 

Jill: Hmm. 

Ken: And if you could offer live streaming for even $40 or $20, that's revenue in your pocket.

Funeral home owners have kind of lost sight of that, and they're looking for making big money on casket sales or earned sales, but there's so many other smaller things like live streaming that could be impactful. You mentioned families moving around in. I think that exposes people to different cultures, different societies.

Because of that, I feel like that's bringing a progression to the [00:17:00] industry where people want more personalization, they want more of an experience, and I think death dual could take a very big part in that trend. As we move forward, as as funeral homes, again, we're slow to to accept any innovation. We fight against it, which is crazy.

But if you could give your families better choices and better opportunities, that's always gonna be a good reflection upon you and your business. And I think we miss that because we're still looking at doing it the way we've done it for a hundred, 150 years. And it's not always the healthiest way to look at things.

But I really believe that if we can put that relationship together. We can serve families so much better. Because you look at the millennials, gen Zs, gen X, all these groups, they want experiences. They do selfies of what they eat, what they're wearing, where they're at. They want that experience. They wanna record it.

And I think that, and I, I don't think I know that's the trend and uh, I think that play a really important part in that. 'cause you could do amazing [00:18:00] things with families and with the deceased before they pass. That would be memorable. I know of a death doula who helps write out cards with their, with the person they're, they're working with.

Who's, who's, who's Termin Ill for like weddings or anniversaries or birthdays so that when they pass, those can be given to 'em every year or when those certain, you know, March hit in their life, right? Certain birthdays, 18th, 30th, 40th, whatever. And I think that's stuff that as funeral directors, we don't do.

And that's something you guys bring to the industry that would be so amazing to, to develop those things alongside the doula that. They can serve our families better and give them what they really want. And that's experiences. 

Jill: You're right, the younger generation and even my generation, I'm 47, so like that midlife generation.

Ken: Sure. 

Jill: We are definitely more about experiences that [00:19:00] are personalized. Versus the traditional, what's always been done before, when I did my funeral celebrant training, which is why I was at the New Jersey Funeral Directors Association conference, they talked about how many people, because the only option that they've been offered is a traditional funeral, choose to not do anything.

They're like, yeah, then I'm just not gonna do anything at all. Right? And so you're not gonna sell 'em a casket, you're not gonna sell 'em an earn, and you're not gonna sell them anything. Because they want something different or they want nothing at all. And as a death doula, I've been learning over the last few years, I could say when I first started my training, you know there is some negative beliefs about the funeral industry in the death doula community.

There's definitely a little bit of the. You know, the stereotypical that they're only out to make the money by selling the caskets and pushing the most expensive one while people are vulnerable. And I'm sure that is true about [00:20:00] some. Mm-hmm. But like everything, that's not everybody. It's not every funeral director.

Ken: Sure. 

Jill: And so I have changed just because of my personal experience of losing some people and then going through the funeral process. For one person while not doing it for another around the same time, and realizing how important it was for me to go through this experience, taking the time and honoring the person and honoring my emotions, and being together with friends and family and doing the whole thing.

So maybe it doesn't have to be the traditional funeral, but having some type of a service, whatever that means to you. I believe more and more is important because as humans we need community. We need ritual, we need those things. It's just part of our makeup. And so losing out on the experience because we feel like it has to only be this one [00:21:00] specific way is a disservice to all of us.

And so I'm hoping that over time we are gonna see some shifts and changes towards. Doing things differently as somebody's dying. I have talked to people that have done, I don't know, sometimes they'll call it like. A living funeral where they'll have the party or the service before they die. While they're still alive.

Yes. Or creating unusual memorial services for a family after somebody has died. They didn't do the traditional thing. They maybe got 'em cremated, got the ashes back. Maybe they did some fun with the ashes, but then they had the party afterwards. So if we could all work together, it seems like it would help.

All of us, not just the doulas and the funeral directors, but it would really help all of us. 'cause I do think we need that ritual. We need that in our lives when we've lost somebody that we really love. Or even if we didn't love 'em, 

Ken: right? Still gonna take care of some kind of [00:22:00] funeral or disposition for 'em.

But I agree with you. I feel like in the perfect world and for a funeral home, if they're going to really serve families well, I think there's different elements that we can add. I think that besides funeral directors. We should have event planners, we should have death tos, right? Because then that's what you're talking about, having either no service or something completely different than the traditional funeral that we're going to be presenting to the family.

And we may not have that. You know, we're drawn to the industry for certain reasons. For me, it was all about the science of embalming. I thought that was fascinating. It was a combat medic. I saw a lot of death, blood guts, stuff that was stuff to me that was appealing. Embalming, the science, the art of that, and that's what brought me into the industry.

But I realized that I'm actually very good with people. I really loved spending time with families and helping them get through the one. It could be one of the hardest times of their lives. Some it is, it's it, and they, they never get over it. For some, it's marginal because they're young and there's different deaths they'll go [00:23:00] through.

I feel that if we had the right personnel. To make that experience something that they really want, and that could be event planner and a funeral director all working together to move through the end of life, the middle of the funeral. What happens after someone passes if you put that team together?

That's the best way to really serve. You're really putting the families first and not separate agendas. 'cause you're working together, you know, collectively to produce something that they'll always remember and have a fond memory of. In the past there aren't as many fond memories of funerals. It's all sad because of the traditions and.

Not that I think that we shy away from tradition. I think that's important. But there's new traditions forming because of new generations, new thoughts, new ideas. Right. The traditional right now may not be traditional in 20 years. 

Jill: Mm-hmm. 

Ken: Even in five years it could be completely [00:24:00] different. 

Jill: Yeah. Because traditions do change.

Ken: Change. Yes. 

Jill: And so I do have a lot of death doulas that listen to my podcast. I'm sure there's. Some of them thinking the same thing that I am thinking, which is, okay, so now what if I wanna approach a funeral home and say, hi, I'm a death doula. I think we should figure out how to work together in supporting families and in supporting people so that they have a better experience around a really terrible situation.

Ken: Yeah. 

Jill: What would be. Ways that we can approach them so that they could see the value. Because then I have to think that they're getting value out of it. Of course. 'cause it's still business. They're not gonna wanna do it just out of the kindness of their heart for us, right? But what would be ways that we can say to them, we can provide value to you as a death doula, and if you bring us on as a contracted employee, or think about using [00:25:00] us, how could we maybe do that?

Ken: I think a referral partnership is a good way to start. Say, Hey, I work with these families and they're looking, they wanna see a facility. They have questions about how the logistical things happen, right? We can facilitate that together. I can bring this family to you and they can take a tour. It doesn't have to be a cell, it doesn't have to be, Hey, you're getting this family.

I'm gonna give them to you. But it could be opening the doors that way. And, and I think that leads into education. I think that you could do an education package where you could both kinda get together and because, uh, funeral directors, we want people in their buildings. 'cause not many people have funerals and buildings anymore.

Right? They're going to churches, parks, you know, wine bars. They're doing things differently. But if you could have an educational program where both the funeral home and the death doah present together and you get people in the funeral home to be part of that. I think that would be strong. I think you guys would be integral in integrating pre-need as well.

[00:26:00] Helping direct families to say, Hey, maybe it's time to look at, you know, prepaying for this, preparing for this, right? Mm-hmm. So here's a good pre-need program with this funeral home. Maybe they could help. And that also leads to a revenue collaboration. Which is important as well. Different things can be set up to make sure that you are getting repeat business and that that you know, because that's gonna bring you revenue, right?

You're bringing us business that'll give us revenue. We can refer each other back and forth. If I was in your shoes and go into a funeral home, that's what I would do. I would probably talk about those. I don't know how many, is that three or four points that I brought up? I would probably bring those forward, throw 'em into chat just to make sure you get, or whatever your ideas are.

I think that those would be areas where you've gotta go in friendly and open to understanding where they're at as well. Mm-hmm. Right. Because there's a lot of fear that exists around, around death doula in that industry because, you know, we're most funeral homeowners are worried about, you know, there that you guys are working without oversight.

You go back to the [00:27:00] case you talked about earlier with the death to get, she had sued, hit a cease and desist order, I believe it was in Indiana. It is going to the Indiana Supreme Court now. Originally she had to stop what she was doing until her lawyer went back to court, and then they said the judge was smart enough, said, wait a minute.

This is different. You know what, what she's doing is this is, this is freedom of speech. She's just sharing, she's helping, she's guiding. And so you've gotta understand that funeral directors get a mortuary college, right? They get their degree, they have to be licensed, so they have to take state boards, national boards, they've gotta do CEUs, right?

They've got all of these things that they have to keep up. License in order to do it. And some states are even have to be bonded. So they have to do all these things to keep their license, to perform their duties. And they say, wait a minute. A debt to, doesn't really have to have really any rural certification within a state or federal.

They feel a little bit like, Hey, we get to do all that. Why shouldn't have to do that? Right. So I think being [00:28:00] open, just to understand where a funeral director or a funeral home owner is when you approach them, is really key to be able to have successful. Conversation and relationship with them. So 

Jill: like every relationship, we need to be open to hearing the other person's point of view.

Sure, 

Ken: sure. 

Jill: But again, easier said than done for sure. 

Ken: Yes, for sure. 

Jill: Yeah, because actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I did one time do a networking group close to me, and I presented with a funeral director. On end of life issues. This was a couple years ago now. I can't even remember the exact topic that we did, because I am thinking how, you know, we go out into our communities.

There are so many topics that we could present on together about how to support people. 

Ken: Yes, 

Jill: it's always good to get the community involved and get the community behind it. Both communities not asking for death dos to help out. 

Ken: Yeah. 

Jill: Then why would the funeral [00:29:00] homes want to use us? The criticism about us not having a.

Specific certification that is overseen by any state or federal type of thing. I can understand the hesitance in that, can understand people being a little bit resistant because there are different death doula training programs. We all go through different ones and they're not all made up the same.

Somebody could go to a weekend long. In a hotel somewhere and say, okay, now I'm a certified death doula. But that doesn't mean that they know how to actually do the work. 

Ken: Sure, 

Jill: I can understand that hesitance, but I think what we do is so different that I don't feel the need right now to have that overseeing body.

What we do is more. Like a life coach. We're just talking to [00:30:00] people about what's important to them and helping them get clear on what's important to them, and then we point them in the right direction. To have the people that like, you know, I'm not gonna write up somebody's will. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a grief therapist.

But if you just need somebody to talk to, if you need somebody to help you think of ways that you can work with your grief tools that you can use. But I will 100% say if it's. Something that I feel like I can't handle, I have no problem being like, I will find the person for you. I will find the therapist.

I'll find the funeral home. I'll find the lawyer. Yeah, I will find all those parts for you. Yeah, but that's just me, right? I can only speak for myself. 

Ken: Sure. I appreciate your sentiment and I agree with that. I feel that's a healthy way to handle things. One of the problems in our industry is that we control the funeral directors and estate.

Control the state board. Everybody on the state board is a funeral director or a funeral home owner. It's not always open to an outside [00:31:00] member of the board. Some do, some do not. Licensing for what we do is important because we need to know how to do certain things, especially when it comes to public health risk.

Those are important things that should be, has checks and balances that there, there is some kind of governing body for that. But I don't believe we should control every aspect of death. Most funeral homes, or most states believe that the funeral director has to have every bit of control over a funeral, and that's, I don't think that's, that's healthy or smart.

I think that there's talented people like yourself and other death doulas that could bring so much forward to help families because of the control issue. If they're not getting those services, they don't know about it. I think that's a real tragedy in our industry is that we can't let go of the little bit of control enough to say, Hey, we're not perfect.

We are good at these things, but we need other people as well. And I think that's, that's would be a a, [00:32:00] that should be eye eyeopening experience for states to really recognize and to understand that, that the role that other people could play. Or help with when someone passes or is passing could be so much better for families.

So much better for communities. So much better for funeral directors because, because that control we, you know, we have drinking problems, drug problems, we have, you know, suicidal problems because there's so much we feel that we have to, to be responsible for and that's not healthy. It's nice to be able to say, okay, I've got a team around me who can help me with this.

I feel that that's the best way for funeral directors and doulas to work together as a team and to recognize each other for that. Say, Hey, I don't do what you do, but I sure need what you do. I can do what you can't do, but let's put it together so that you know, it's all about the community. It's about the people we serve.

At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. [00:33:00] 

Jill: It's delegating out to other people to do the jobs that we can't do. It makes me think, 'cause I'm originally from kitchens, right? We have an executive chef, and then you usually have multiple sous chefs, and then you have your line cooks, and then you have your prep cooks, and then you have your dishwashers.

We all need each other. You wanna put the executive chef in the kitchen by himself and see how much gets done. You can't just do it all yourself. I think that's important in so many industries. We do, and we say it in kitchens too, people turning to drugs and alcohol, even suicide. Look at Anthony Bourdain and Burrell, the chefs that.

It had everything that every one of us line cooks ever wanted, and yet in the end, the stress and the burnout is real. Yeah, we can prevent it, but I feel like we're such a society right now that has taught all of us that our strength is in our individualism and being able to do everything ourselves [00:34:00] and not ask for help, that asking for help is a weakness and it's.

Kind of backfiring on us. I think that's why a lot of us end up turning to things that are negative to our health, to self-medicate, this feeling of stress and overwhelm and the anxiety that we feel when we can't do it all alone. So working together could help relieve some of that. I have no problem supporting anybody through.

What they're experiencing around end of life for some of these funeral directors. Just having somebody there that can support them, even just being able to talk to us, you know, that could really be helpful as well. 

Ken: That's a good point because we have a lot of struggles on industry right now. Revenue's being a big one.

The other one is really keeping employees. There's been a big turnover. We have a lot more women in the industry than we ever had in the past. Right. It was always a predominantly male business till probably [00:35:00] 10 years ago, 15 years ago. It was as short time as that has been. But now that you have a lot of women that come into the industry, and there's different reasons for that, a big part of that is that there's a lot of burnout.

Because we take too much on individually instead of looking to having a team. And I think that this is the right time because I feel like is a, is not just in this industry, but is a culture around the world. People are more open to working with others than they ever have been. I'm not seen as perfect.

It's still got a long way to go, but I feel like I've noticed in my world that there are more people willing to help out. Probably generations ago where, hey, you're the parent, that's your job, right? Or you are this professional, that's your job. I feel like today we do have more collaboration, more collectivism, and I think that those are super important to really work those relationships and progress those relationships.

'cause I know that I have a proclivity myself of, you [00:36:00] know, okay, I've got a task, I'm just gonna go do it. Uh, and that's just me being an older guy, right. 56. Oh. That was the way I was raised and brought things in my company. It's a family company, so I've got my son, my daughter, and my son-in-law. They're younger than I am by far.

I see that they are always more willing to discuss and have meetings and get everyone else's ideas. I don't tend to do that as easily. I'm learning that, but I think it's through the openness and accepting that we can be better in every facet of how we serve families. 

Jill: There is definitely something to be said for.

Coming together with your team and having meetings where it's not just the boss talking at people, it's having discussions. 

Ken: Yeah, 

Jill: I was saying about the podcast, even when we have discussions, we can really come up with ideas that we wouldn't have just had on our own. If it wasn't for something that somebody says, then we think of something, then they respond and you go back and forth and that's when these innovations and ideas.

Can really [00:37:00] be birthed into reality. Yes. I love that you're trusting your children and you said it's your son-in-law as well, my Sonin law son-in-law as well. To really take on some of this and to start some of these conversations so that you can really come up with some new ideas. 'cause you're right, the younger generations, they just think differently.

They do things differently. They grew up in a different reality. Even probably our generation is closer, like forties and fifties. I think we're pretty close, but I look at people that are in their thirties now. That 10 years of difference. For me, the internet was a thing in high school, but it wasn't a big thing.

Not everybody had it, right? It's not like we all had access to it in our homes by the mid two thousands. Everybody had it. Well, a couple years after that, we literally had it at our fingertips. Yeah. So these generations, they're just changing and not all of it is good. There's definitely some negative things that come with it, but there's also some [00:38:00] really positive things and that they just think and do things differently than we do, and we need to trust them and mentor them and guide them, not just try to force them to do the things that we did, because that's the way that it's always been done.

Ken: I would absolutely agree. Having that cell phone in your hand gives you more opportunity to see things on a larger scale, things that are maybe not in your area, but in all over the world, that it does bring kind of an openness to an acceptance more than we've had in the past. Again, I don't think everything on the internet is good.

Here's a lot of negative, but there could be so much good. Because of the communication we could have with other people that, that, that could enrich our lives, businesses, everything we do. So, yeah. Mm-hmm. I agree with you on that. 

Jill: It is a shame though that we get so caught up in the negative stuff.

Sometimes I get up in the morning, I look at my phone, check my email, and read the news. 

Ken: Yeah. 

Jill: It is unfortunate. But then at the same time, we're talking right now, [00:39:00] right? We're able to connect. We wouldn't be able to do this if it wasn't for technology. 

Ken: Sure. 

Jill: So many classes and workshops that I've taken have all been because of technology.

We wouldn't have had that same opportunity, but I find that there are more people wanting to do more things in person. Again, that's why getting out into our communities and connecting with other businesses. 'cause for a while I tried doing so much online where I was like, I'm just gonna do it all online.

That's why they say you're gonna make all your money anyway. But now I'm finding going back into the community, meeting with people in person and doing classes in person is really important. So we need to find that balance. 

Ken: I agree, and I think that work and life balance is important. These conversations lead to opportunities that we may not have had in the past, but yeah, I agree.

There should be more balance in how we do things in life. 

Jill: We do need more balance. We do. It is for sure. I have found personally, and I mean it sounds like when you [00:40:00] were in the military, you saw a lot of death and dying and maybe had a similar experience, but. It changed the way I live my life when I started thinking more about death and you know, I'm really just starting to understand that life is not.

The things that are important are not what we're taught are important. The money, the careers, the cars, the people around us are what's important. Those experiences are what is important. It's an unlearning and relearning of finding balance within myself and also then trying to balance the world around me.

My little bubble of influence of my family and friends. I want to spend. Quality time with them. I wanna have the conversations. I wanna do the things that fulfill me and make me feel good because then I'm not gonna have as much of the burnout. But it is an unlearning. I really have this struggle within myself of [00:41:00] if I'm not constantly dizzy, then I'm not worth anything.

It feels like that's almost the internal dialogue, so it is hard to unlearn that, but it's important that we all do. 

Ken: Agree. And going back to what you said earlier about people wanting to have those experiences, one of the things that we've seen, and you also mentioned not having services anymore, this has been a big thing.

I think with the baby boomers, that's been a big thing. It just put me in a pine box. They, me in the backyard cremate me no services. That was kind of their thing because their parents were so. Over the top. Traditional, they've gone away from that. But we have the National Funeral Directors Association, which is the FDA, our biggest association, the biggest funeral association in the world.

Right. It's in Wisconsin and everybody belongs to, it's a big deal, but they do a lot of polling and, and they, they, they do, they do a lot polling to figure out trends and help funeral homes. And one of the things, he had a, a pool that came out recently, which is interesting. It focused [00:42:00] on people. I think it was.

45 and younger. And the focus was of this pool was, what kinda services do you want to have? A lot more people said they would love to have a more traditional funeral celebration. I wouldn't say. Home type of setting, but that they're open to having more of a service than maybe the baby boomers are open to.

And again, it comes down to experiences. It comes down to sharing and having conversations, being with the people that you love and having people around you. And I think they see that as being a very important part of realization that we kind of got away from in the past generation. So I think that trend's gonna come back and we can enhance it greatly if we can.

Offer those experiences of compassion and care through what death doulas do. I think it could be a very important part of funeral service going forward is to understand what it is you guys really bring. Like you said before, [00:43:00] if you just wanna talk, you're the person to come to. And if there's something that you don't know or you're uncomfortable with, we will find somebody.

I think that's something that's missing in our industry and I think it's such a valuable thing that you guys could bring, that debt tools could bring to our industry so that these future generations get the services that they want and the experiences that, that they're looking for. 

Jill: Yeah, I agree. I think that's amazing.

We are at the end of our time though. 

Ken: Oh, 

Jill: I know, right? We are. It flies by. That was very fast. I know, I know. Well, that's what happens when it's a good conversation. Tell us where, and I'll put links in the show notes. You don't really have to spell things out, but tell us where people can find your company, where they can find you, if anybody wants to reach out to you.

Ken: Sure. Yeah, I would love that. 'cause I think I would love to have more conversations with death doulas and see what we can bring together. But they go to my website, which is the Funeral Service Collective, or actually it's the fun sc.com. So, just so you know, the fun c.com, they can [00:44:00] email me there. My cell phone number is there, my business number is my cell.

I answer every call and I'm always open to collaboration and understanding and to learning what we, what I can do. Is a innovator and consultant to bring to the industry. Conversations with them would be very valuable. But again, the fund.com, our website is the funeral service collective.com as well.

Jill: Wonderful. Well thanks so much, Ken, and I'll put the links in there so people can easily find you. 

Ken: Perfect. 

Jill: I really enjoyed this. I appreciate you taking your time to talk to me. 

Ken: Yes, Jill, it was wonderful. I enjoyed meeting you, Atlantic City, and this has just made it even better, so appreciate your time as well.

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