Reflecting on Life, Death, and the Journey Ahead with Stephen Wilson

In this end-of-year episode of Seeing Death Clearly, host Jill McClennen sits down with her husband Steven to reflect on three years of podcasting. As the year 2025 closes, they discuss personal and professional highlights, stoicism, aging, and emotional experiences with death and grief. They delve into broader societal issues like elder care in the United States and the balance of everyday life. Jill also shares plans for future episodes, re-inviting past guests to explore their evolving perspectives. This candid conversation touches on navigating uncertainty, staying connected, and living intentionally.

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:36 Reflecting on the Past Year

02:14 Guest Highlights and Future Plans

03:13 Navigating a Chaotic Year

06:47 Thoughts on Aging and Society

16:35 End of Life Conversations

21:33 Home Funerals and Personal Rituals

23:41 The Importance of Pre-Planning

24:22 Challenges in Discussing Mortality

28:18 Caregiving and Government Support

33:24 Reflections on Life and Death

41:08 Looking Forward to the Future

43:22 Podcast Appreciation and Future Plans

Transcript

[00:00:00] This is what Jill and I talk about when we're, this is not an unusual conversation. This is the stuff we talk about when we're driving and the kids will be in the backseat. We'll chime in, chiming into the conversation. Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach.

Here on my show. I have conversations with guests. That explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

In this episode, I'm wrapping up 2025 with a conversation that's become a bit of a ritual for me on the podcast. Sitting down with my husband Steven, for my end of the year episode. This is also the final episode of the year, and I'll be back with a brand new one on January 11th, 2026. We reflect on three years of podcasting and talk about what this past year has held for us, [00:01:00] both professionally and personally, as well as what we're looking forward to in the year ahead in a year that felt especially chaotic.

Our conversation touches on stoicism, the inevitability of aging and our emotional experiences with death and grief. We also talk about broader societal shifts. The state of elder care in the United States and the ongoing challenge of finding balance in our everyday lives. This is a reflective, honest conversation about navigating uncertainty, staying connected, and continuing to live with intention as we move forward.

Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Alright. You ready? Mm-hmm. Okay. So let's see. This is the end of 2025, so this is our fourth time doing this. I don't know. I've done this a couple times. Now I like to wrap up my year talking to Steven. This will be my last episode for 2025. I'm taking off two weeks My.

Next episode will be out January [00:02:00] 12th, 2026. And yeah, that's the beginning of my fourth year, which is crazy. Like I did four years of podcasting happen. It definitely flew by. Oh, well we're in that spreadsheet though. I love my spreadsheet. I got everything there. I have everybody that I've ever interviewed this year.

I'm definitely gonna invite back some people that I talked to over the years that I just really. Wanna talk to again. So I'm excited about that. So they know it yet? No. Can you name names? Okay. No, no, I, well actually no. So one is Brandon from Mount Laurel Cemetery in Billy, but actually we're probably not even really gonna talk too much about the cemetery.

He does this whole other thing and his real life. That was super fascinating. So we're gonna talk about that. I just did Barbara Carnes again, she was top of my list of people when I sent that email. They immediately were like, yes, she would love to. Which is super flattering. I know. You know how exciting, like when I get to talk to Barbara Carnes.

Yeah. So that was cool. But yeah, there's definitely at least five or six people that [00:03:00] I've talked to over the years that I'm gonna invite back. So we'll see. We'll see. I'm always looking for new people, but also I do like to follow up, see where people's lives have gone, see how they feel about the world right now.

'cause man, that's one thing. Whew. This year. This year was crazy. We didn't have any crazy, there was like several mass shootings yesterday. All it's like we shooting. Are we talking about, did you see the video of the guy in Australia that tackled the shooter? Yeah, that was craziness. Good for him. But. I mean, it's just, we were in New York City.

Every time I go anywhere with you and the kids, you were making fun of me when the truck passed me twice yesterday on the turnpike and you were like, oh, that's 'cause your mom drives slow. And I'm like, you know what? I drive. It's tricky 'cause you actually don't drive slow, but I do drive slower now than I used to.

I merge a lot differently when I go to change lanes. I really look like three times to make sure. Because I can't even [00:04:00] imagine. I mean, I told you the other day that if anything were to happen to you and the kids, I would go back to my Catholic roots and become a nun because I just can't even imagine what that would be like.

Hopefully, knock on wood, I will never have to. I hope not. I hope not either. That would be terrible. I don't know what I would do without you guys, but possible though. But that's it. That is it. I mean, I think nail. It's interesting 'cause I wouldn't say I live in fear of these things happening. It's definitely not that.

But I think there's this part of us, especially when we're younger, that we feel invincible and that this will never be us. These things maybe happen to other people, but it's never gonna happen to me. And now I just know that these things do happen to people like us every day. They do. And there's nothing special about me, so it could be me.

I mean, I think you're special. No, I know, but you love me. The universe doesn't think you're special then. Exactly. I'm no more special than any other puny little human. On this [00:05:00] planet, and we really don't know when it's gonna be us. But I do enjoy my life more in a way that I didn't used to before. And it's like, I know I've been saying that now for a while, but it becomes more and more obvious to me.

Like even this weekend when we were in New York, I really don't like to be cold. I'm somebody that I get very uncomfortable. My body gets really tense. I'm not comfortable when I'm cold. But the cold didn't bother me this weekend, even though it looks like it in pictures 'cause my nose got really red. It went through the whole thing because part of me knows that one day this isn't gonna be here, like one day I'm not gonna be able to go to the city even if I want to, just because I'm gonna be older or I'm gonna be dead.

I was able to just appreciate everything more and relax more and not worry about things as much. And something that Ryan Holiday says in his daily dad, the stoic. The kids wanna get in the pool with you and you don't want to 'cause it's cold, uncomfortable, just do it because they're not [00:06:00] gonna be kids forever.

And they just wanna have that memory of their mom or dad like jumping in the pool or go to New York City and being uncomfortable in the cold. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because this is the chance. What are you gonna do? Not go not hang out with the kids 'cause you're a little uncomfortable. Just be uncomfortable. Just be a little uncomfortable.

Exactly. Just be a little uncomfortable. And I mean, that's why the stoics meditate on death a lot. Right? I don't think it's a coincidence that. I've started to embody more stoicism over the years that I've gotten comfortable with death. I don't want my life to end anytime soon, but I have no control and it's going to, we have some control, eat well and exercise.

That's true. Three times free MEE lanes. I do. I really do mitigate the risk. She can't eliminate it. Yes, exactly. We can mitigate, but we can't eliminate it. I feel like this year there's a lot of. Grieving that I'm doing for the life that I thought our kids were gonna grow up in, that [00:07:00] I'm really starting to believe more and more is probably not true, are changing a lot.

Things are changing, but you're having anticipatory grief grieving something that hasn't happened because Right. The kids are pretty awesome. They are awesome. There's no point in grieving a future that may or may not happen the way you want it to be. Yeah. And that is true. I can't worry about things that have not happened.

That's not healthy. It doesn't do any good. It is strange to be living in such strange times of watching things historic, as you know. I like American history. I try to think of 50 years, a hundred years, 200 years from now. We're living through a time in American history where people are gonna look back and be like, it must've been so weird to live through that turbulent time in the country's history.

Mm-hmm. Where's the average person living through? Yeah, when there was the rise of AI and the disruption of the federal government and the rise in antisemitism again, and it's the rise of China, the fall of America, like, who knows? [00:08:00] Yeah. It's a strange time. It is strange times, and there is something to be said for studying history a little bit and to understand.

That this is just cycles that humans go through. Every 250 years or so is about how long An empire. An empire, exactly. Imperial power. And we're at our 250 year mark this year, or I guess next year, 2026. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I think that does give you some feeling of. Not necessarily hopefulness, but just kind of like, all right, it's just another cycle that we go through.

It doesn't help ease some of the fears, though. This past year was almost like our American Revolution tour where we visited anti teem, Harpers Ferry, Gettysburg, Washington Crossing, and Princeton Battlefield. So we really went into the American history of a war that was brutal. A couple words between the Civil War and Revolutionary War.

Yeah. But it's just like when we were there [00:09:00] and you're watching the videos, and you're reading all the stuff, and we feel so far removed from it. You know, like we're there posing for pictures in a battlefield where there was like thousands of people that just laid there dying. And you know, I just don't want that to be my kids.

Right. But then there's that conundrum of I just don't want it to be me and my family. Right. And I don't want it to be anybody. I don't want. Anybody to have to go through that again. I wish we could figure out a way. On the micro level, it's hard and scary and you don't want people dying violent deaths like that.

But at the macro level, they were patriots. They dislodged the monarchy and formed a new nation, presumably all time Democratic ideals. Were still struggling with that 200 years later. Yeah, they certainly don't want our kids to die in another revolution like that, but Somewhats kids may have to. Yeah. In the long run, those people would all be dead right now anyway.

Yes. It's hard because there's part of me that knows that death is just part of the [00:10:00] human existence, is dying on a battlefield any worse or scarier than laying in a hospital bed after multiple rounds of chemo connected to machines being kept alive. Not really alive for months. Right. Is that any better?

Glorify soldiers that died? Was that quotes better to burn out and fade away? Was that Neil Young? I don't know, but yeah. You remember the people that memorial people that died in glory? Yeah. And they gave their life for something that they believed in. And so. Weird to think that we could even realistically be having a conversation of like, what if there really was a civil war?

When I look out my window, it's calm, it's peaceful. Even New York City was beautiful. It was gorgeous. There was a ton of people there, but nobody was screaming and yelling. Nobody was pushing and shoving us. [00:11:00] It was just beautiful and diverse. I think the internet has a lot to do with that and social media.

It's a lot easier to yell about things than be rude to people, and you don't actually have to deal with the consequences of it. Yeah, that's true. You're able to say things that you would never say out loud to somebody face to face. You lack consequences online, for the most part. You lack consequences and you also lack the.

Feeling of empathy that you would feel if you said something like that verbally to a person and you were able to see their facial expressions and their reaction. You can type it away and then scroll on to the next video and never actually have to feel any of those things that we would normally feel if you were to say that to somebody's face.

Right, which makes it easier online. Like all the AI stuff now where, you know, we send a lot of [00:12:00] videos through TikTok, Mayo, and Beans. She just turned 12 yesterday, which is crazy. Our baby's 12, but now so many videos, it's like, is this real or is this ai? It makes me feel weird. My body doesn't like this.

Everything that I see now, I have to look at it closely. And really question it. Is that even real or made up? They are getting really good. It is getting harder and harder to tell. And I saw this one video that Aina sent. It was a guy that was like walking outside of a building and there was like these two teenagers.

And there was like this weird like, oh, you old person, you can't even tell ai. The guy's like, oh, whatever. He walks through the teenagers and they disappear because they're ai, ai tv and like that one, like my, my Body physically. I remember you had a bad reaction to that. I didn't like that at all. Mind fuck [00:13:00] watching.

I was like, oh, it was totally a mindfuck. It totally was. And I don't think we're built for this, which is gonna make it really interesting. As we move forward, we built this. So yeah, but we built a lot of things that we, we don't know what to, how about like nuclear weapons? We built a whole lot of things that we don't really know what to do with or how they handle.

You don't know. Human beings built those and are experts in those. We can be experts in everything. No, but when it's in our face, we can't be experts in ai. But we also have to interact with AI and learn how to. Live with ai. I don't know. That's gonna be strange, Ken. It feels like this year in particular was just a really strange year.

I did start looking for full-time paid work, going back to a real job. Not even that we need it now, [00:14:00] but fears that your job was at jeopardy because you import food for a living. Tariffs definitely are a little crazy, very disruptive this year. Very disruptive and, but like looking for full-time work and realizing that I'm definitely at that age where people are gonna look at me.

And be like, why would I hire her when we could hire a 30 5-year-old or even better, a 25-year-old that we could work to death and pay little to nothing because they're only 25? And that was definitely a little bit of a grieving process. Aging for me is not. Stressful is not even the word. I think some women in particular get real anxious about aging because of society and the things that it teaches us and tells us.

I don't have a lot of that, but like you said, I do eat well. I take care of myself. I do my face yoga and massage my face at night to keep my [00:15:00] wrinkles minimum. Maybe can't stop them altogether, trying to stay as healthy as possible, but it's definitely. Affecting me more than I thought it was going to.

It's more in this feeling of not having usefulness, like when you get to a certain age, society views you as not being useful, even though I feel like there's a lot of wisdom that comes with age. They are trading wisdom for youth, but also we worked in an industry where. I didn't necessarily need wisdom.

I needed youth. I needed somebody that could stand for 12 hours a day, pump out a bunch of cupcakes, decorate a bunch of cakes, and carry 50 pound bags of sugar and flour if it was me, I mean, not that I applied for a job in a kitchen anyway, but you know, I also do look back and I think, oh yeah, well, if somebody was applying for work with us, and I had the choice between a 46-year-old and a [00:16:00] 26-year-old.

The 26-year-old has some of the things that I would've needed. More than the wisdom of the 46-year-old. So I don't know. That's been interesting. Aging. Aging is weird. Mm-hmm. Watching our parents age is weird. Yeah, for sure. I don't really watch my parents age. I see them a couple times a year and I'm like, oh, you've gotten older.

Yeah, that's true. 'cause we don't see your parents every day practically like we see my mom. Right. And I don't really see my dad very often either. And thinking about the amount of care that parents. Potentially might need. I try not to stress and worry about things that might not even happen, but, well, you work with clients that are going through particularly difficult teaching experiences too.

It doesn't have to be that way. No, it's true. I think that's the frustrating part too, knowing that it doesn't have to be as difficult as it sometimes is, and trying to get on this soapbox and talk to people about it, [00:17:00] and also knowing that we. Don't have all of our stuff together either. As much as we maybe should, but we're still better than a lot of people.

So we have a lot of conversations and we do have some of the important paperwork in order, but we probably should review some of like, like I tell people, right, you need to review these things. Well, are we doing like a goal setting for next year? We have a whole day set aside to set our goals for next year.

We evaluate our end of life plans. Yeah. 'cause I mean it does change too. The older we get, the more that things are gonna matter in different ways than they did when we were younger, when we first started talking about it in our twenties. Yeah, I think I'd like to cremated in there and now that we've been to Steelman Town, I think I'd like to be there 'cause cremation's bad for the environment and, and it's a pretty chill place at it.

There it [00:18:00] is. It's beautiful there. Did you see that post someone posted on your end of life Clarity page about you could like have a funeral in your backyard. Can't bury someone in your backyard, but you can like Yeah, there's not a lot of rules. I'm not sure how true that was. Yeah, it's kinda like that guest.

I think my favorite guest of yours this year was that woman. I can't, Ian. Oh, Sherry. Sherry, yeah. Uhhuh. Her interview was fun to listen to. I think you like her too because she sounds like your Memaw. She was kinda like, like the Southern attitude accent. Exactly. She definitely reminds me of talking to your Memaw, but she had that kind of like.

There are no rules. You don't have to do a lot of things you think you have to do. Mm-hmm. Burying and funerals and all that stuff. And that's where I did my funeral celebrant training in September, and I've started interacting a little bit with funeral directors and funeral homes, and this year is gonna be a big push to get more involved with that end of life.

It's definitely interesting. [00:19:00] Some of the people that I've talked with, some are still in the funeral business, some have left because of it just being like a lot of things in our country. We do it the way that we do it 'cause that's the way we've always done it. And then also funeral homes are like, uh, people aren't going through full funerals anymore so now we're struggling to make money.

And it's like, well that's probably 'cause we need to start doing things a little bit differently. But they don't really want to yet. So we'll see. That's gonna be interesting stepping into that world, because you can do home funerals. You can, like we have a nice backyard. We spent a lot of time in our yard.

Mm-hmm. We've had parties back there. Put a tent back there. I just interviewed a woman. Her podcast episode is not out yet. I ended up talking to her for a full hour after we recorded, I can't remember if we talked about this before. Or during the recording or after we stopped recording, she was saying we could actually take a section of our front [00:20:00] yard where the garden is and make that a quote unquote cemetery.

And Yeah, seriously and like bury ourselves in our yard, have to be like, when it becomes a cemetery, has to be open to the public. So like we would have to allow people to come and sit in that part of the garden if they wanted to. Can do that anyway. Oh, for sure. Pitches on the yard. Oh yeah. I mean, we lot people enjoy our yard.

I love it when people walk by and they are like, oh, I go outta my way to walk through your garden. You know? But yes. So part to resale value of the house? Yes. At least where we are. Yes. I agree with that. If I'm dead, I wouldn't care. True, true. Once we're dead, we wouldn't. And there'd be some weird, it would be like no way that they would raise the resale value in their house.

No, in their minds. Because they'd be, I gotta get this. Oh, school. And that's where in the long run, you never really know. No, exactly. But yeah, so tax breaks. Oh, I don't know [00:21:00] now why the President Bird is a ex-wife has golf course, supposedly. 'cause he gets tax breaks. 'cause it's a cemetery. I mean, he did it.

That's a perfect example right there. True goal. Do whatever he wants. The 19th hole. So weird. Say hi to the ex. Oh. But yeah, so I mean, I think actually we could, I did look it up once for my presentation that I do on funeral alternatives or like burial alternatives. And in New Jersey you can actually bury somebody in your yard, huh?

Yeah, there you go. You just, you have to have it like rules them. As a cemetery, there are no rules. Yeah. But home funerals for sure. You can keep your person's body at home. You can use ice packs, like there's a way to do it. There are home funeral guides that will help you do the whole thing. For those DIYers out there, that's where, you know my comment in the Facebook group, 'cause there was definitely a couple people that were like, I don't know, it's cool, but I don't think I could do it.

It really would [00:22:00] depend on the person whether I would want to have the body home, like when Aunt Karen died. You know, I sat with her for a little bit, but I certainly didn't feel this need to sit with the body for like hours. I didn't feel the need to like washer myself like it just, I was able to be with her when she died and work through the whole thing then and after she died, sit with her for a little bit and then let her go.

But for sure, God forbid, if it was one of the kids, I would. Definitely need it to be something deeper and more personal. I would need it to be a little bit more personal and need more time. I would need to bathe them, dress them, and have a whole ritual, you know, of course that's if it's possible, forbid if one of 'em dies in a car accident or something.

I will not have that. Even if it was you, if you were. To get ill while you're younger and like care for you for a while, then yes, I probably [00:23:00] would need more of that. But my mom, I think I'll be able to just kind of process and move on without the need to be there. But I think the beautiful thing is.

Having the option to do what it is that you need. Yeah. And not feel, because so many people do. I thought before I got into this work that if somebody died, you would have to call right away. The corner comes out and they take the body and then it goes to a funeral hall. Yeah, exactly. And you go through the motions, which is fine.

It doesn't have to be that way. Correct. And it's good to think about these things beforehand is like the whole point of your existence these days to think about these things before it happens. 'cause then. Can actually get what you want. That's where this year I've definitely not changed the focus of my business.

I've realized that if I'm gonna work with any clients, pre-planning with them is going to be very important. I did have a few [00:24:00] situations this year of working with somebody. Where I got called in when the person was dying in the hospital. That is really hard. It helps them At that point. It's more just putting out fires.

It's like crisis management at that point. It was hard on the family. It was hard on me. It just was not an ideal situation. I don't regret doing especially the one. But Why do you think it's so hard for people to talk about their mortality? If you talk to people and you're like. You will die a better death.

Feelings of peace and acceptance. Everyone's be like, that sounds great. And you're like, all right, let's get to work doing it. They're like, nah, I don't think I'm just gonna hold off until I'm dying and then I'm gonna die with fear and anxiety and that's gonna be the way it is. It's like, I don't understand.

It's so weird. I don't understand it. Think it's American thing. I used to think it was just an American thing. I don't know if it's only an American thing. It's definitely like a modern society kind of thing, I think has led to it. Becoming [00:25:00] harder. Some of it is our lack of being around people that are dying.

Back in the day you were in the house when grandma died, because where else was grandma gonna die? By the time you were old enough to take care of your parents or your spouse, you'd already been around probably a few people that had died, even some of whom were your siblings. You were around death more and male.

A lot of people have never been with somebody when they died, have never been with somebody even as they're actually dying. Right. They've only been around people that have been very sick, and it scares us because it's terrible. It's terrible to watch somebody that we love suffering. Yeah. And so we have this feeling that if I don't think about it, if I don't talk about it, maybe that'll.

Keep me from feeling afraid. I don't know. I remember, I think it was this year, you [00:26:00] had dream clients reach out to you and they were people our age, they had the money to pay for you. Both the parents were going through some health problems, dementia problems, and the family was like, let's take care of this now.

And then that happened and then you reach back out and you're like, well, we'll just wait. And I was like, why? It's just gonna get worse. It's just gonna get worse. There was no alternative to it not getting worse. I think that was when I really understood the business model as it was very difficult. 'cause they were like your avatar client.

Yeah. And they were just like, you know what, let's just put this off until it's a worse time. I know. And it was crazy too because the phone call with the siblings, I mean, they were like. This is amazing. This is so, they were so into it, but of course also I think two of 'em were government employees and at the time they both were living in DC and talking about the fact that they were watching all of their coworkers get fired.

So I think some of it was just [00:27:00] panic over spending the money and dealing with something on top of dealing with real life. But also, yes, yes and yes and exactly. That's like, there's always a reason not to talk about it. Now. There always is a reason not to talk about it now and do have compassion for people.

Of course. You know, when I think about how. There's heavy cultural currents going against what you're trying to promote. And it's not just one person though either, right? So like maybe I am wanting to have the conversation, but that doesn't mean that my parent or my spouse or my children want to have that conversation.

So you're also dealing with trying to navigate this whole collective of people. That are avoiding this conversation for all their different reasons. Everybody has their own reason and so yeah, it's really challenging. There is [00:28:00] shifts and changes happening. I mean, I do think we were headed in the right direction, but it's like, and I really don't want to get political on my podcast.

I You're gonna go, I'm trying so hard to like not bring my politics into. But everybody has their own politics. Everybody has their own politics. It is a reality that Kamala Harris had a plan to help with elder care. Yes. And burned in desperate need of that as a nation. And people don't understand it dropped the ball so bad on that because not only was there inaction from this current administration, it's the opposite.

They're potentially cutting it. You're gonna have even less help. When their parents are dying and they don't understand, they only see Medicaid and Medicare as a poor person thing. Whatever their validation is in their head of why it's okay to cut these things, they have it. What they don't understand is that caregiving a loved one is exhausting at best.

There's a person that I'm talking with right now, caregiving an [00:29:00] 11-year-old child and their mother with dementia full-time. Even in a facility, even with paid caregivers. And when we talked about how much money it was costing a month, it's like $40,000 a month between all of the care that mom needs. And it's like, we can't do this though.

This is not a long-term solution, so what am I supposed to do? And now, especially with the fact that, and I always get these backwards, Medicare is for old people. Medicaid is for like. Caring for the everybody. I'd say I think that's right. But now with like potential cuts to Medicare, that is part of how people are able to afford the care and this person's not even working because they were actually laid off this year, which is terrifying in and of itself.

But I don't know how they would do it if I was trying to work a full-time job. Right. I couldn't do this. And so all of these people, it's like the Mahas, you know? And again, I was about as hippie and [00:30:00] crunchy as you could get when our son was born 15 years ago. I mean, I was hippie, hippie, crunchy. Crunchy.

And it has changed over time for a variety of reasons, because I've learned, and I've just changed my mind on a lot of things. But there's like this segment of the population that has this like. They want to have control over. Things like not vaccinating their children and control over the foods that their children eat.

And again, I am 100% behind a lot of these things, but how they ended up going towards where they're going, I don't understand, but I'm like, do they true effect? Do they know what they voted for? Like do they understand all these people that are like, I wanna have a homestead and grow all my stuff and drink my raw milk, which I teach also serve safe, which I know that raw milk is gross.

Not because it's risky. Yeah. I mean, raw milk. Maybe if you like owned your own cow and you were washing and cleaning, okay, maybe. Sure. But like factory farming nowadays you [00:31:00] don't want raw milk. We also understand that now we're all gonna have to care for our elders, and they're living longer because of healthcare, which is wonderful, right?

We have measures that keep people alive longer, but that also means it's keeping them alive longer. And so we're gonna end up with a generation of people that are our age. That are going to have to spend their entire day and night caring for somebody. It doesn't have to be that way, but we do also need the government to help.

We needed the government to help fund it, and Kamala definitely was like. I'm gonna give some extra money towards caregivers because that's not covered. You still have to pay for caregivers outta your pocket, and it's so expensive as it should be. It's a lot of work. If I'm paying somebody to come into my home, to bathe my parent, to change their diapers, to feed them, to do the things that I physically cannot do mentally and emotionally, I cannot do it.

They should get [00:32:00] paid well. Unless y'all got an extra 20 to $40,000 a month laying around, you're gonna have to do it yourself by yourself, because now all these things are being cut. Well, to be real, who's doing the caregiving in this country? Exactly. Women immigrant. If you are to go into nursing homes, if you are to go into home healthcare agencies, which I did work at one briefly a couple years ago, a lot of the caregivers are immigrant women.

Economy. So Yeah, I know. It's funny. I came from food service, which is a lot of immigrant men because you've got the cooks, the men in the fields picking the produce to the dishwashers, to the prep cooks, the busers people have no idea how much labor in food service is from. Immigrant, sometimes undocumented, sometimes here legally.

Mm-hmm. But either way, they're all being sent back now. I know, and this is where I feel so much [00:33:00] grief for. People too, just like the suffering, the shootings and people in war zones around the world. I know those things have always happened. That is the only thing that I think can keep me grounded, give me some compassion, not let me turn towards like hatred and anger myself.

I know this is just part of the human existence for better or for worse. And then it's interesting. Some of the people that I talked to on my podcast were like. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like my podcast is all over the place, but the common thread is always death, eyeing and grief, right? And living life, talking to people that are psychic mediums or have had near death experiences and even religious people, right?

If you believe in heaven, there is that part of us that's like, well, I guess whatever's here isn't really it. Right? I don't know what comes after this. Mm-hmm. Uh, there definitely seems to be. Of course there's never gonna be evidence, like we can't recreate these things in a lab. Maybe eventually, except we're also [00:34:00] losing all of our scientists right now.

But that's again, a whole nother thing going to other countries Exactly. That are leaving for other countries, including somebody that I did talk to that was like, my sisters, you know, this scientist, and she does all these things and it's really great and she's moving to Sweden, good for Sweden, bad for us, but either way we.

Can't prove it, but it definitely seems interesting that there is common threads that run through all of these stories, right? And that these stories have been for as long as human existence, as far as we know. So I don't know, maybe this is not all that there is, and I don't know. I don't know if that makes me feel better though.

Animals think around death. 'cause like animals grieve for sure. And then there's animals that have consciousness as far as we can tell, like elephants and dolphins and mm-hmm. Pretty intelligent. Yeah. Mammals. Do they live outside of the moment? Are they living an ideal life? 'cause they're like always fully present.

They might [00:35:00] be living an ideal life, right? They really might be. You know, we or they or they have anxiety about getting sick and dying. When they see one of their tribe members or whatever, their pack or whatever, do they see that and think, oh man, that's gonna be me one day. Or they just like, I don't know.

I don't know either. I know. I'm like, and I think there are people that say they're pet psychics. She psychic or zoologist or something. Yeah. Studies this or any zoologist or pet like down there listening or if you know any, send them my way. That is actually interesting. I've definitely seen the videos of dolphins, whales.

Elephants, especially if it's like their child, they won't leave their dead child hump back with Carried its, yeah. Dead baby around for like weeks. Yeah. It was very clearly grieving. Correct. Like that is, do they have that ability to think, this is sad and also it scares me because I'm gonna have to do this?

Or is it more just like, this is sad. That's kind of where it [00:36:00] stays. Oh, this is sad because we we're supposed to have a life together. They're supposed to enjoy their existence with me. Yeah. I don't know either. This is what Jill and I talk about when we're, this is not an unusual conversation. This is the stuff we talk about when we're driving to New York City and the kids will be in the backseat.

We'll chime in chiming into the conversation, which you know, I'm sure for, for some people that probably seems very strange, but also I don't ever want my children, we just try to be open and honest with our kids about everything. I really don't want them to ever feel that anything is a subject they can't talk to us about, that they can't come to us with.

Especially as they get older. I worry for sure about. Drugs and alcohol with teenagers, early 20 year olds, and so many of us that are like, I don't know how I survived. There's definitely times I look back and I'm like, I cannot believe I survived some of these things. But not everybody does. And that is [00:37:00] where you get older.

You get that. Wisdom of I survived it. Presumably, you see people are like, well, I didn't wear a bicycle helmet when I was a kid and I survived. And it's like, yeah, but your neighbor down the street didn't, and that's why we all have to wear bicycle helmets now. Exactly. And they're here to be like, well, I survived, or, or I died.

Exactly. Exactly. The dead people aren't here, so that's why you should do this. That's true. And so, you know, I do want them to feel comfortable coming to us and talking to us about things. They know we have Narcan in the house. They know what Narcan is For that expired one. I wanted them to spray. Oh yeah.

To try it to see what it feels like to spray it, to see how much pressure you have to use into anyone. We're not gonna use it on anybody, even though Verina did ask, she's like, what would happen if you used it on me? But I wasn't overdosing. I'm like, I don't really think anything. Still probably would feel something, but it wouldn't do anything to you.

Not like if you were overdosing. Yeah. It's amazing to me like what a. Crazy thing that somebody could be overdosing and dying and you just gotta [00:38:00] spray this stuff up their nose and it'll like immediately blocks opioid receptors. Yeah. Sometimes they need more than one dose, but we do have Narcan in the house and the kids know we have it and they know that if they were to ever be out anywhere, if any of their friends that we have it and that they could call us and we, we would be there.

I want them to feel comfortable with that. But there is still that fear. The one person I talked to in my podcast whose daughter died in a car accident, driving in the snow, we were driving in the snow yesterday, and no matter what you do, you can't protect them from everything. Mm-hmm. But you know, we try to teach them and make sure that, like you said, we minimize the risks as best as we can.

Also knowing that life is totally random. Or on the other hand, you can believe in the like, but also when it's our time, it's our time. You know? Like if there is a greater power that chooses when our time is, it's [00:39:00] not gonna matter how much I exercise or eat. Well, if my time is to die when I'm 48, I'm gonna die when I'm 48.

I don't know. There actually was something I heard of recently that I can't remember where it was, if I read it or if I listened to it. I don't know at this point. I read and listen to so much, but they were talking about this experience of like grief that people go through when they did everything right and then they still got a terminal illness and they're still dying.

How they then grieve the fact that they didn't actually. Enjoy some of the things in their life. I actually had a conversation at a networking event with a guy who works in hospice. Young guy, really nice. We were talking for a while about exercising and eating well. He was like, yeah, you know, whenever I go out with my friends and they order french fries and they're like, come on man, just have some french fries.

I'm like, no, I can't eat the french fries. And I was like, you can eat the french fries, eat the vern fries once in a while. You need to still [00:40:00] live your life. I love french fries. I eat really well most of the time, so I could eat french fries sometimes and not feel guilty about it because I don't wanna be on my deathbed thinking, well, I've spent my entire life not eating french fries because I thought they were gonna kill me.

And the one story was a woman who was vegan and did yoga and did all the things right? All the things that I have done in my life, all the things that I'm still doing, even though I'm not vegan. And then she ended up still getting some cancer fairly young and was dying and was so angry about it because she did everything right and she lived her life not eating things that she wanted to eat, that she enjoyed eating, and she was just angry and had to grieve all that she lost while she was living her life.

Mm-hmm. It was fascinating and also really sad, right. If you have addictive personality though. Don't do the things that may harm you if it's actually going to, that's true. I don't do [00:41:00] heroin. I don't do coke. Thankfully, I was smart enough to never do those types of drugs, so I stayed away from all that stuff.

What are you looking forward to next year? Anything? What are I looking forward to? Look forward to seeing my parents more. My mom retired. Spending time with y'all. Yeah. Hope to have a good professional year on growth. I don't know, just being present. Being here. I don't look forward too much. I don't look backwards.

Yeah. You naturally live that way. You always have. Well, I have good parents for sure. That helps set that frame of reference. Yes. They give you a good foundation. Yeah. Which does help. Absolutely. I think we're doing that for our kids. We Absolutely. You're doing that for our kids. Okay. Appreciate it. You're a good dad.

Well, you're a good mom. We try. We love our kids and we love each other and they know that. I think they feel safe and comfortable and happy. Was the thing they said the other day. Something like if your kids sing in the house, you know they're comfortable and they're happy. Maybe I [00:42:00] didn't even send it to you.

I'd like read it online of like a kid that is like walking around singing. They're comfortable, like they feel comfortable in their environment, like they're in a relaxed state. But hear both the kids just singing and humming. I can hear the 15-year-old in the shower at night, humming along, having a good time, just living life and loving life.

Fully present, fully present in the shower, singing, drinking a seltzer. Yeah, he's got a eat as a whole. So yeah, I think we're doing a great job and I appreciate it. I think next year, not that this year was a bad year, because it genuinely was not a bad year. This year, I feel like there was just a lot more unknown and anxiety.

It was a disruptive year. I'm hoping that 2026 is just gonna be a little bit more like, all right, let's just do what we gotta do. I'm hoping my business will. Figure itself out. But again, I love having the time that I have with the kids. And if my business was busier, that would definitely be harder trying to find that balance.

But [00:43:00] I think this year's gonna be a good year. And then I'll talk to you at the end of 2026. We'll see. Actually, we should listen to the last year episode and see what we talked about. See how this year lived up to what we talked about last year. I know, but either way, I love you. Love you too. Thank you for coming on.

I'm proud of you. Thanks, honey. I genuinely could not do it without you. Before I wrap things up, I just wanted to say thank you to those of you who have been listening for a long time, and to anyone who found the podcast more recently. I'm really grateful you're here. This podcast means a lot to me and I genuinely love the opportunity it gives me to sit down, have these conversations with my guests, and then share them with all of you.

Looking ahead to next year, I'll be inviting back some guests from past episodes. And I already have a lineup of new conversations that are either recorded or scheduled. If there's someone you'd love to hear back on the show or a topic you'd like me to explore and try to find a guest for, [00:44:00] please let me know.

You can email me. My address is in the show notes. Or find me on social media. Thank you for listening, for sharing the show, and for being willing to sit with conversations that aren't always easy, but are a real part of being human. Thank you for your messages and for being part of this space with me. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

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Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death. Clearly.