Death Doula and Funeral Celebrant Stories with Caroline Fenelius-Carpenter

For over 25 years, Caroline has walked beside the dying and their families, offering support, stories, and sacred presence. Her work as a death doula and funeral celebrant has brought her into homes, long-term care facilities, and sacred circles, where she’s helped others navigate grief and end-of-life transitions with honesty, humanity, and compassion.

Caroline’s journey began as a volunteer, eventually leading her into long-term care where she found her calling—sitting with people at the end of their lives and learning from their stories. She described the deep spiritual moments that arise when sitting quietly with someone near death, where small miracles and lessons in compassion reveal themselves. Over the years, she’s supported grieving families, helped children understand death, and made space for people to feel and express the messy emotions that loss brings.

She shared that many people today don’t follow one faith but instead build a patchwork of beliefs. However, when death nears, fear often rises because the topic hasn’t been discussed. Caroline believes these conversations matter. She even normalized them in her own family by talking openly about funerals during car rides and creating playlists with her children for their future services.

In her work, Caroline has learned to hold space for both deep sadness and lightness. Sometimes, her goal during a funeral is simply to get someone to laugh. She’s also created rituals like “ice catchers,” made from frozen petals, seeds, and fruit, which families hang on trails as an act of remembrance and quiet healing. Whether she's singing hymns or playing rap music requested by the deceased, she meets each moment with authenticity and reverence.

Caroline’s work reminds us that grief is muddy but not hopeless, and that legacy, love, and laughter can walk beside sorrow.

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Transcript

Caroline: [00:00:00] Death has become my church. I learned so many life lessons. It's so humbling. And even for my kids and my husband, I. It makes us have these difficult conversations about life, about living. It's not all about dying. It's just opened up different things. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach.

Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a. Space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

In this episode, I talk with Caroline Fenelius-Carpenter, a death doula and funeral celebrant who has spent over 25 years supporting people at the end of life. Caroline shares powerful stories from her work, and we talk about how grief brings both tears and laughter, and how rituals can help families [00:01:00] heal.

Caroline talks about normalizing death conversations with her own kids, even making playlist for their future funerals. Through her gentle, honest presence, she has helped families face death with love, humor, and meaning. This conversation is a moving reminder that while grief is hard, it doesn't have to be hopeless.

Join us to learn more about conscious dying legacy and how to hold space for both joy and sorrow. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome, Caroline to the show. Thank you for coming on today. If you wanna just start us off, tell us a little bit about who you are, where you come from, anything that you wanna 

Caroline: share so we know who you are.

Very good. Thank you for having me. My name is Caroline FIUs Carpenter and I am an end of life doula and an efficient in cor city of Cort, the Lakes F Town called Fenland Falls, which is just north of Toronto. It's a small town, so I've been doing death work for. Over [00:02:00] 25 years. I started as a volunteer and I moved into working in long-term care.

That's where I got my feet wet and then just helping my community. Beautiful. Yeah. 

Jill: And I know debt doulas were kind of, not that we're new. The term I would say is new. Yeah. But the work is very old. Right. There's been people doing this work forever in our communities. And what originally drew you to doing this work?

Because I think a lot of people. When you say that you work with people that are dying, they're like, oh, that's so sad. Isn't that depressing? And it's definitely not work for everybody. 

Caroline: So what drew you to it? I was born in Sweden. We moved to Canada when I was a baby with my parents. Most of my family was in Sweden.

I started being interested in sitting with people and getting their stories and things like that, and especially older people when I was a young age. And it was like I felt if I could help them, maybe there was somebody. In Sweden helping my elders. So it was a karma kind of [00:03:00] idea. Becoming an end of life doula.

I didn't even know there was such a thing. And there's a funny story attached to it. I was doing palliative care and funerals and my husband woke me up one morning at five 30 and he said, we live on a back road and there's a llama in the middle of the road. I said, you go to work. I will take care of the llama.

I woke my son up and he just followed me out the door. I said, we need to go rescue a llama. We drove up the road and we were kind of struggling having, like catching it. So, and I knew the people that, there was people down the road that owned a llama. I'd never met them before. So we drove and this is like 5 36 in the morning.

We figured out which house they were. I knock on the door at like six in the morning and this woman answers, she's around my age, she's and she's English. And I said, I said, do you. Do you own llamas? And she said, I hate those damn llamas. They're my mother-in-laws. I said, it's up the [00:04:00] road and I'm worried about it getting hurt or other people getting hurt because they run into it.

So she jumps in the car with me. So there's the three of us. We drive slowly around the road and, and we kind of get it from behind. So we are pushing it down the road kind of thing slowly and we're chatting away and it, and. She of life, doula from England, she had taken courses and we got talking about death.

It was exciting to meet someone comfortable talking about death. In the work that I do, my kids and my husband are great, but you know, they can only take so much. For me, death is kind of become church. I never really belong to church. And church in our town is made up of our town is a. Town of maybe 2,500 people and there's eight churches at a young age.

I learned if you went to this church, you couldn't talk to these people, and it was kind of segregated and didn't make sense. So for me, death has become my church. I learned so many life lessons. It's so [00:05:00] humbling. And even for my kids and my husband. It makes us have these difficult conversations about life, about living.

It's not all about dying. It's just opened up different things. I've sat with hundreds of people while they're dying over the years, and the thing I love about it is that you never stop learning. You're never an expert. And the people that say that they're an expert about it are so full of shit. And like even doctors and stuff like, and I've taken different courses and stuff like that, but.

There's doctors that have gone to school for many, many years and nurses and stuff, and they're uncomfortable with death. So you kind of become this like bridge, you know, to help them. Their job is to save people and to keep them living and a lot of times our job is just about comfort and just being there and just shutting up and listening.

We don't have to fix anything. You're just there kind of coaching them. As they move on. That's the beauty of it. You're always [00:06:00] learning. It's the little spiritual kind of magical things that happen because you're quiet and in that moment with them, they're so close to that veil that you get to witness some pretty amazing things, you know?

Jill: Yes. To all of that, and I just made a note and wrote down, death has become my church. I love that. Yeah. That's just a really beautiful way of putting that. Feeling because I think I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. Where I'm not religious. I took my vows to become a Buddhist, but I don't really even say to people, oh, I'm Buddhist.

That's the one path that I follow the most at this point. Yeah, but I think you're right. Like in so many ways, death has really become my teacher. It's become my teacher about living life. Isn't that what most religions are really there to do, is to live 

Caroline: life? And it teaches you lessons about compassion. I, I had somebody question me once, is there [00:07:00] anybody that you would never sit with while they were dying or do a funeral for?

It made me think and I was like, no. A few years ago I did a service, I. For somebody who had sexually assaulted me when I was younger. Wow. And it was very cathartic and I didn't do it for him, I did it for his family. We were kids at the time and we became different people later on. We grew up in the same place.

It was very cathartic and I was able. To laugh at stories because I'm very honest with my services. I'm not gonna sit there and fluff it up. Everybody has these crazy things they do and mistakes they make. It was kind of nice 'cause I was able to share some of the things I did back to him. It was very cathartic.

I've sat with different people that made wrong decisions. I've done services for people involved in the sex trafficking trades, everybody. We're all born and we all die, and the stuff we do in between, [00:08:00] that's part of the lessons and learning how to cope. It's part of life, right? 

Jill: Yeah. Yeah. And it is an interesting question 'cause sometimes people will ask me, I.

Of, you know, when you're sitting with people like different religious beliefs or whatever else. Yeah. And I'm like, it's not about me and what I believe. No. I'm there to support people through their experience, even if they believe things that are totally different than me. Yeah, and I think that's part of what I love so much about end of life work is that you've realized that your differences really are so silly.

Trivial when you're at the end of life things that, you know, if I was to walk down the street and somebody has a very different viewpoint than mine, it might be, you know, contentious. It might be that there's a lot of angry energy and all this other stuff, but when people are dying, they lose a lot of that.

Even if you believe things that are different than me, they get this sense of clarity of what's really important, and it's very rarely. That their political beliefs or [00:09:00] religious beliefs being different than mine is important to them. Yeah. It can still be something they're working through, but it's not our differences that are important.

Caroline: Yeah, and it's like you may not even know when you're in that moment because you're there to support that person, but you're also there to support the family. It's kind of this dance between the two. And I'm finding now a lot of times people don't go to church. They'll pick things from different beliefs.

They'll take a little bit from Buddhism from. The Hindus and indigenous people and nature, and they kind of create something for themselves, but then at the end. They get kind of scared and panicked 'cause they don't know what's gonna happen because they haven't talked about it. And that's the problem too, is people need to talk about it.

It doesn't mean it's gonna happen tomorrow. Yeah. Like I remember we had a little film night in our town and people would go to the local high school and they'd have films from the Toronto Film Festival. So films that. People from a small town probably wouldn't go [00:10:00] see because you don't live in a bigger center.

My kids were like eight, 10, and 12 maybe, so we took them to this thing and it was Captain Fantastic. The movie about this family that lives in, I think it was, I. In like Northern California, like, you know, it was, and they lived off the grid and raised their kids and taught them at home. The wife died and her parents were, I believe Catholic.

They buried her in a cemetery. So the family goes down in this bus and they bring her body back to the mountain to, because she wanted to be cremated. My husband and I show up with the kids and one of the people that were running the film festival, she comes up, she goes, I'm, we're a little concerned. I said, oh, my kids will be fine.

Like they're not running. They know. And she's like, no. She goes, they're swearing in the movie. I said, it's fine. And then she goes, there's nudity. And I said. I'm Swedish. So they've seen nudity, it's not a [00:11:00] big deal. And then she gets really quiet, like this was like the worst one. She goes, and there's death.

And I was like, I said, well, I'm an end of life doula. My kids know about death. They would come with me even to my work and you know, open the door as we brought people out and stuff. She just kind of looked at me and she just, well, fine. She co. So she let us in. So at the end, like in part of the movie, there's a scene and the kids are singing Acapella Sweet Child of Mine, guns N Roses song, and I'm like, that was so awesome.

It was just so amazing. I said to the kids in the car, we're driving home. And I said, so when mommy dies? I said, you know that scene in the movie where they're on the mountain and she's in the shroud and she's on fire and they're singing, you know, sweet Child. I said, that is what mommy wants when she dies.

So then they got really quiet. My husband, I call him car, he looks at me and he is like shaking his head like, oh, I Overp spoke again. Yeah. And then all of a sudden my middle boy pipes up. [00:12:00] He goes, huh? Goes, I would've thought you'd want Sweet Caroline. So I turned back and I said, that's awesome. I said, yes.

I said, that's perfect. I said, that's the perfect song for mommy's funeral. And you know, so it's creating these conversation and they would. We would be at hockey practice and I would get the call. I worked in a long-term care center. Somebody had passed away. I liked walking people out 'cause I'd sit with them and sit vigilant.

It was kind of closure for me. And so my boys would come and they knew the routine. They would wait outside the door. I went in and would help them, the funeral home, get them on the gurney, and then we'd walk down the hall and cover them with a quilt. The boys would run ahead and they'd take off their hat.

They pushed the button to open the door, stand there, and then run to the next door, push the button and stand there. And it was just kind of, you know, it was just, that's something that their mom did. And even when we had pets pass away or friends pass away, it made them more comfortable [00:13:00] talking about how they were feeling.

One of my kids gets really aggressive and physical, like he's out there. He'd hit a pillow or chop wood or do something like that. My other boy, he'd, he'd kind of be in it and then he'd like, I need to go to my friends. 'cause he is the middle child, right? He has his group of support. He'd go to his friends.

And then my last one, when our dog passed away, he, he stayed, like, he stayed the whole thing and sat there and held the dog and petted the dog. And then afterwards. He had a big cry and then he looks at me, he goes, can we get something to eat? And it was so cute because it was like, that's how they all handled it in different ways and they found their own way.

It wasn't like we sat down and had a discussion, you know, this is how you handled death. They just kind of figured it out, what worked for them, right? Because what works one time doesn't work another time. Even with me, when I do services, I've done a lot of services for people. With family dynamics and when they've died of [00:14:00] suicide and small children, I've used different tools.

Some are harder than others 'cause you know, the people and they're, you know, they're a part of your life. I've gotten very good at grounding myself and building a bit of a wall and things like that. I used to drink wine while I did my services and stopped doing that because that just took me down a darker hole.

It didn't. Mm-hmm. And then I got to doing. A lot of services. So it was a lot of wine, which isn't so great. And the boys know my routine. We had one situation where a very, very close friend of ours had passed away and I worked a lot with his service. It was funny 'cause he would wake me up like he'd passed away, but there was three nights in a row.

I would wake up at a certain time, it was the same time each night, and I had to write, write, write everything out. It was like three nights in a row and I was exhausted 'cause I was working as well. So finally I said, okay, I got it. You don't need to keep waking me up. I'm good. I've got it all. And then usually what I would do, especially [00:15:00] with a service like that, is I'd try to cry it out.

Kind of the night before. So I had that outta my system and for some reason it just didn't happen. We went to the service. I did the service. After I was done, I kind of ran out. I'm like, I need a cigarette. I came back in, I was fine, and then my husband went home 'cause he was really upset. My son waited with me, came and got me.

They had the family gathering after. Then we drove home and there was a song that came on that was his song. And I just like started ugly crying, like it was like couldn't breathe. Like I was ugly crying and, and my son knew that I hadn't cried and I just kept saying, I'm okay. I just need to let it out.

We get home and my husband's at the door and he thought I'd been drinking or something because I'm a mess crying. And I just ran up the stairs and my son's yelling at him. He goes, dad, dad, she's fine. She just needs to cry now. Just leave her alone. And he was only like 15, 16 at the [00:16:00] time. He just kind of knew.

It wasn't like, is mom gonna be okay? He's just like, no, she's good. Just leave her alone. And I was fine. It's kind of interest, even now, I see them as these. Very empathic and they feel other people's feelings and know what to do. They don't get so worried about fixing stuff. They're just kind of there in the background and they go out and get physical, either jump off a bridge into the water swimming or playing hockey or playing baseball or something.

You know, kind of just kind of getting it outta their system and, and it's kind of neat to see that they figure it out in that physical kind of way. 

Jill: And I really like the point that you made. It wasn't that you sat your kids down and were like, we need to have a really intense conversation about death and grief.

Yeah. That's the thing that I think a lot of people. Get overwhelmed with when death do is especially so many of us are like, we need to have these conversations in our families. Yeah, you need to talk about what you want, these [00:17:00] things with your families. Yeah. People have this feeling of like, okay, I need to call a big family meeting.

Yeah. You couldn't do it that way. If you create end of life plans, do your will and get everybody together. Call the family meetings, sit down and do it. But a lot of it is really more just about having the conversations. Normal, natural, just like you talk about anything else, and I think a lot of people don't talk about anything that deep or important.

Right, exactly. We 

Caroline: avoid those conversations and I think they feel it needs to be perfect. Like even in the car we'll drive, my kids played hockey and baseball. They're older now, but you know, even along the drives, like we'd have tune singing or playing and stuff like that. I'm like, oh, that song I want for my funeral.

My kids have a playlist that says songs for my funeral. They've gone to funerals for kids their own ages or close to, or they've known that I've done services for, you know, it doesn't matter what age you are, there's, you know, things happen. So, and that's kind of been interesting too, and it's [00:18:00] not even like, and it's individual conversations, telling them the weird, magical things that happen, just throwing it out there to see what they think.

Experiences that I've had when I've sat with people that have, that are passing away or. Been or have died and these little weird little things afterwards that kind of make you realize that we are just this tiny little piece in this world that the world is so much bigger. 

Jill: Right. Well, I wanna know more about your weird, magical things 'cause I love that stuff.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, if there is any, you know, little stories you would wanna share. Yeah. That of course. Don't give away personal information about people. I. Love that stuff. It's something where I don't always know what I believed about anything. Yeah. I'm kind of open to all possibilities. It does seem kind of weird to me that we would just like disappear and that would be the end of it.

So yeah. 

Caroline: Any of that stuff you wanna share? I'd love to. Yeah. Like I had one situation, I was called in. To help [00:19:00] with this family. Their mom was dying and she wanted to die at home, and it was a real big struggle. 'cause in these rural areas with healthcare in Canada, it's probably the same in the states.

There's so much, and especially the rural areas, it's a struggle getting consistent care, especially with palliative care. I was called into this family and this woman was very stoic and proud. They hadn't really talked about death, so I kind of went in and I was kind of letting them take the lead. I was kind of sitting back, I was there, you know, 'cause they, and they wanted to do a lot of the care.

When family's able to do the care, I would rather have somebody that loved me that I grew up with doing care on me than some stranger. And it gives them good closure as well. 'cause they're face to face with how much pain this is and how hard this is for that person. So this woman. And the doctor had said she won't be here by Saturday.

Well, Saturday came and she's the captain of her ship. And that's what I say to families when they tell you this [00:20:00] is gonna be the day. It doesn't happen often, so you kind of just have to let it be what it is. She held on and held on. I went and I sat and finally I was there by myself with her. I had a little chat with with her, and.

We talked. I said, are you scared? And she nodded. And I said, do you know what's gonna happen? You know when you die? She like shook her head. So I told her this story that I'd heard on the radio about when you're dying, you're on one side of a river and people are packing your canoe and supporting you and they're sad and packing your canoe with supplies for your journey.

You have a guide in this canoe. So they've packed everything and everybody's sad, and there's a heaviness and you're so tired and exhausted and in pain, and then you, your canoe takes off and it gets into the middle of the river and there's a veil and fog and things like that. And you can feel, I. The sadness and heaviness on the one side.

Then you can also feel excitement on the other side of the river as [00:21:00] you get through the fog and you see a shoreline and you see people and they're running and you hear familiar voices and you're realizing those are voices of your elders and, and people loved ones that have passed away and they're coming to greet you and your canoe lands and they're there to greet you and take you.

So I told her that story. After that, she kind of settled and I just kind of left her. 'cause she was a very private person, so I just kind of left her, you know, and her breathing really changed. And then that night I stayed till about midnight. And then the next morning her doctor phoned me and said, you know, the family's really struggling, like, can you go?

So I went right over. So I drove over and I said, well, I'll see what kind of magic I can do. Oh, I went in and. The family had gone. I said, just, you know, gimme a few minutes. So then I sat with her and I just held her hand and I whispered her and I said, we're in the canoe. I said, we're in the canoe and we're [00:22:00] gonna go to the middle of the river.

And I kind of described it again like a yoga nidra. Okay. So I said, we're in the middle of the river. And then I said, we're coming. And I said, I can only take you to the other side. I'm with you in the mud. And then. We're getting to the other side of the river and we got there. Then I said, everyone's here.

I said, you know, your people are here. And then she passed away within like five, 10 minutes of that. I was in shock. It felt like I was coaching her almost. I was with her and her son came. I said, I think she's gone. He was just shocked. He said, what did you do? I said, I didn't do anything. I was just talking to her.

I was with her. Mm-hmm. I said, I said, but she is, you know, she's, she is. Peaceful now like she was. 'cause she had fought it and fought it, and it was such a humbling experience to feel that. And then I had it a few months after that. I did a service for a young man. He had died of suicide. His playlist for his funeral was a lot of hardcore [00:23:00] rap, like gangster rap.

So I had it on my playlist. I had a celebrations of life playlist. A few weeks after that, I was sitting vigil with a farm lady. She was the sweetest little lady. Very religious, like she had been going to church and stuff. So we were sitting there and I was holding her hand. Um, I was singing to her like hymns and things like that, that I had on my playlist.

And I queued up a few songs. So then all of a sudden I'm sitting there and I've got my eyes closed and I'm having this moment with her and I look down, or I, I hear this sign, I'm like. That doesn't sound like one of my thugs. And I looked down and it's thug's mansion and I'm like, no. And I'm pressing my phone with my finger and it was my thumb that needed to change it.

Well, it wasn't changing, so finally I got it to like turn off. So then I'm, I put on another star and I'm sitting and I kind of laughed to myself 'cause I could picture him up there laughing his ass off. I texted his mom and I said, oh, he's in the house. I said, he's [00:24:00] in the house. And soon after that, she took her last breath.

As I was walking out, I was kind of picturing that he was there to help her. I was kind of the connecting piece that he was there helping her get to the other side. And I messaged his mom again and I told her what I felt, you know, and it made her feel good. Mm-hmm. Because it was such a. And that he was there helping her, you know?

And then like I've had, like even when I'm working on services and stuff like that, when I'm doing like a funeral service, I usually just write it out and I don't edit it very often. It just comes through and then I read it and sometimes I've been up there and I'm like, Ooh, that feels weird in my mouth.

Like that's not language that I would use. I had one situation. Where it was an old farmer, he'd lived on his own for a long time. Doing his service was a struggle because there wasn't a lot of information. There wasn't a lot of people to [00:25:00] get information from, so I was pulling different things. A poem came to me about a gate.

I thought, oh, I'm gonna go to the funeral. There's gonna be like, you know, small group of people. And so I got this service done and I get to the funeral home. It's packed. There are so many people in there. I went up to the front and it got really hot. My heart was racing. I had a hard time breathing and looking at all these people and spotted people I knew.

I'm like, if I'd known you knew 'em, I could have gotten more information about 'em. I got through this. There was feeling like I was almost gonna pass out and having trouble breathing. Finally, I got done with the service, walked out quickly. To get some water, to get some air. The funeral director said, you did really good.

I said, I felt like I was really struggling up there. So then I got a glass of water and I sat for a little bit. And then after that I found out that he had died of the part, like he had trouble breathing and stuff. So then after that I [00:26:00] started, I would say to whoever I was doing, 'cause I have a ritual, I'll like, like candles and I kind of invite them in kind of thing.

And then after that, when I do a funeral, I get to the door, I'm like, okay, I'm good. You stay out here. You can observe, but do not. Sometimes a light will go off or little things like that, and that's fine, but I'm like, do not come in here. You can be on the outskirts. That's fine. He was excited to see all these people that had come for him.

He felt that there wouldn't be anybody. It was so weird because I hadn't visited the farm and there was a gate, and the way this poem described the gate was like, and people were saying, so. Did you go to his farm? I'm like, no. And it described this gate to a T. It was the craziest thing. I did another service where the two daughters, he was a kind of a man's man.

He had two daughters and he was divorced from their mom, so they grew up with their mom. So I did his service and I found this [00:27:00] poem and, and friends was really important for this man. So I found this poem. I was going through my stuff and I copy and pasted it right from the site. It was this picture of, and it was about something about your, your friends.

It was YER, like it was weird spelling, and then it had a picture of a cowboy and a horse and guys round up a campfire. I copy and pasted it and the girls wanted the service Afterwards, I gave it to them and they looked at the picture and they said, where did you get this poem? I said, I found it. And they said, this exact picture, this exact poem is hanging in his kitchen above the sink.

Yeah, it's like, that's very cool. I can't explain things. They just, you know, and it's, and it just kind of reminds you that they're there, like, and they're around and, and sometimes it's messages that I'm reading out to people and it's like, it really needed to hear that, or [00:28:00] that's something dad would've said or always said.

It's a very humbling experience. I'm able to give the message. That they want to give and then they can go peacefully. Yeah. But it's, and even like coming home and I'd see things, there's one person that I, she was my boss when I was 11. I worked at the library. That was my first job. I was struggling at my work in long-term care, so I took a bit of a leave to take care of her, 'cause her daughter needed some support.

So I took care of her. About 20 years prior, we had worked on a book about the history of our town. So while we were working together, it was kind of like, oh, we're gonna visit this book and update it. Oh, we would work on that a little bit. So then she, and the first day that I came to sit with her and chat with her and help her, there was a fox in her bay and she goes, oh.

She goes, that's funny. She goes, I haven't seen a fox there in so many years. And we just sat there and watched this little [00:29:00] fox and it was running back and forth and it was so cute. So then they ended up moving. The day that they moved and we didn't see the fox again. This fox was on their front porch. It was like they were leaving the house for the last time.

She got to their new place, the new apartment, I don't even think she was there one night and she got really sick, was taken to the hospital and they deemed her palliative. I went in to visit with her and we chat. I said, we're gonna finish this book in your memory. She passed away. The local funeral home, I phoned them 'cause I knew I was doing her service.

I said, would you mind if I came with you when we went to get her at the hospital and bring her home? And that was no problem. So I went with them. I followed them in my car. We picked her up. Then I followed them back. As we're driving through this little town, a fox runs in front of the road and I'm like, oh, hi Mrs.

Up, kind of thing. It was so funny. I did her service and we worked on [00:30:00] this book. Some days we're a really hard, there'd be times I'd say, oh shit. I would see a fox. I would see it in a card. There would be a mom fox with baby foxes. It was the weirdest thing, and it was like, okay, Mrs. Allen, and it would gimme that energy to keep going.

I had that happen a number of times during the writing of that book. It was so, so strange. Now her daughter and I tease each other about the fox. Oh, we saw the fox, or the fox has been around kind of thing. Just coaxing us along. It just kind of reminds you like, you know that they, that people, they're around and they're, you know.

They're there kind of guiding you and helping you. It's a calming feeling, right? 

Jill: Mm-hmm. 

Caroline: And, and it's an honor that they're there to help you along. 

Jill: It is an honor 

Caroline: to be in 

Jill: that. I don't know that space. Oh. It's like sometimes people say we walk that line. Yeah. Between life and death. Totally. With people recently crossed over, they're kind of just on the other side of the line.

Yeah. So some of us, I think are more sensitive funerals and things. How did you [00:31:00] get into that part of it? The more you talk about it, I'm like, that might be something I would enjoy. I love ritual supporting people through that as you're explaining it, I'm like, that's really beautiful. 

Caroline: How did you get into it?

Did you do a training? Like how'd that work out? I have always enjoyed writing. Writing has been a tool for me. I went through sexual abuse and writing poems was one of my tools. My dad wrote poems. My grandpa wrote poems. It was just something we did. I started writing down people's stories as I was sitting with them and they were passing away and it was a tool for me.

'cause you know, you're in the mud with them and it can be really hard. But it was kind of like. Way to remember them in their glory. And so it was just something that I used to help work through my own grief. When I sat with some of the, some of them I had worked with in long-term care and had gotten to know them and to capture their story, because so many times people are in long-term care and people come in and see a [00:32:00] person in a wheelchair and it's like, no, that person, they were a vet.

They were in the Navy when they have a story or they were a teacher, or they worked in a factory. There's so many, so many stories out there. I wanted people to know that they were more than a wheelchair or more than Alzheimer's, or more than a diagnosis. I started doing. Memorial services within the home that I worked in because their memorial service was their name.

Um, they were born this day and they died this day and there was nothing. There's so much more to them than that. I met this woman at the grocery store and I had done eulogies and stuff, and she said, you know, there's something called funeral celebrant. And what they do is they, they're like a minister, but you're not with a church and you kind of.

Do services and you get paid for it. I'm like, you get paid for it. I did my training. It was a weekend training. I wasn't working a lot, so I had to go to Niagara Falls. I had three kids, so it was a big thing to do something for [00:33:00] myself. Yeah. That meant, you know, a job kind of thing. And then I just, and locally people, I've had people come to services, they're like, oh, I saw that you were speaking.

So I, it's like, it's like I have these little groupies that come. Like, oh, and they know the people, but it's like, oh, well I knew it was going to be good if you were speaking. And the thing I love about it, it, there's so many times I've made a mistake or I've cried because it is sad. It shows them that it's human.

And I've swore at a funeral, you know, because sometimes it's a young person or they've struggled and it is. Bullshit. And we should say that it just kind of lets the air to the balloon. Especially when I do small children's funerals, like those are really tough 'cause there is no rhyme or res, like, it's just, it's so unfair.

Mm-hmm. So, and but when you're able to be there in those situations, you're really in the mud of. Emotion with [00:34:00] a family. It's so intense when you're able to walk with them through that and get them to the other side of grief where they're able to release some of it, like they're able to cry and release and things like that.

And then at least take that first couple of breaths. And even that first laugh, that's like my goal with a lot of my funerals is just to get one laugh. And even if that means me screwing up for making a mistake, like I did a funeral recently and it was a little girl and I. I said, and she was born in 1923 and the mom's like, it's 2023.

And I was like, what? She's like, it's 2023. Oh, shit. I said, did I say them wrong? I said, well, I said she was an old soul. So, and everybody laughed and she was an old soul. Like that was totally her. And it just kind of got that, and I could just feel the energy in the room, just kind of, we're gonna be okay.

It's not gonna be back to normal. It's not gonna be not [00:35:00] dirty, but we're gonna be okay. And people want things to be a big production. It drives me crazy. I do a grief walk. February in Canada, we have a day family day 'cause they think we should have a day every month that we have all. So we have this family day.

And so that I think is a day that people really struggle with if they've had somebody that's passed away or died. And so I've, we make these ice catchers and we use like pie tins or whatever, and I'll put pieces of fruit, vegetables, flower petals from funerals. I've done bird seeds and stuff. Then you freeze it.

Then you hang it outside along a trail and different people come and we're just for a walk. It's not a production. There's no speeches. We just have a toboggan that we drag down a trail, grab an ice catcher, or make your own and bring them, and you hang them along the trail and it's so cathartic. There's been so many times we've taken pictures of the ice [00:36:00] catchers.

You'll see the shadow of a butterfly in the light, or you'll see orbs. It's a great thing seeing all these orbs and stuff, and it's spiritual. You're not going to church, but it's so spiritual. People will come afterwards when everybody's gone and just walk and have a cry. I have one lady, she's in her seventies.

Two of her sons died within a week of one another of overdose. And she just comes. She picks two ice catchers. She hangs them, has a cry, finds me, gives me a hug, and then she goes home. She does this every year. That's the day she can have with her boys, and she feels close to them. It's so nice that they're able to do that, whatever that looks like for them.

You know, I've gathered leaves or bark or flowers. I have flowers that I've kept from funerals, and I have different herbs in my garden. So. I gather them and it will do a flower release. Different things mean different [00:37:00] things to people like cedar. For me, because I'm from Sweden, means like the sauna means like cleansing and you know, those kinds of things.

Birch trees mean home to me, but it might mean something else to somebody else. And so I'll have a basket. And sometimes we've done the community event in my town, somebody was murdered. So we went by their lake. The neighbors came and I had a basket of different flowers, branches, and leaves. People just grabbed something that resonated with them and we put it in the water.

I had a few little things to say and it was quite beautiful because other ministers from town came to support their parishioners. They were happy with what I did, and for me, that's such an honor because we all have our beliefs and whatever gives you strength, good for you. You know, it may not be what gives me strength, but if that's what gives you strength, then that's great.

If we're all there with a kind heart and a compassionate heart to be there for one another, then it doesn't matter. We don't have to [00:38:00] label that this is this kind of a service, or these words come from this or that. It's whatever works for you because grief and death are dirty and muddy, and it is hard.

But it's not depressing. Mm-hmm. Like that. That's your saving grace. When you're with that person, they're just not having a good day. When you're trying to hold them and clean them and it's just getting messier. You'd end up laughing because this is so ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense, but this is where we're at right now, and it's using whatever tools you have.

If you wanna be at home, that's fine, but you're not gonna have all the tools. You're not gonna have a nurse that you can yell to. Can I get a hand over here? No, you're on your own and you're using. Tea towels, uh, paper towel, whatever you can grab to, you know, fix the situation. It's kinda like your MacGyver.

Yeah. In like, in like somebody's living room. Oh, there's, let's tie that up. A pillow will wrap that around you. Whatever [00:39:00] works right. And then you can laugh about it. So 

Jill: yeah. I mean, we have to laugh, right? Oh, you do. Well, we are coming up on our time. This has been so wonderful. I love hearing your stories and your experiences.

Thank you. All of it. What beautiful work. Maybe you've inspired me to look into being a funeral celebrate. Absolutely. And hopefully this is part of why I do this podcast, is to inspire people. To go out into their communities and do this work. We need this work in our communities and I don't know if there is anybody around me that does non-denominational.

Yeah. Funeral celebrations for people. Yeah. That just want something, but 

Caroline: they're not part of a church. And it can be magical for you because things come out like when you're writing, and especially if you're writing by hand. Like there's things that are coming out and you're like, oh, that's amazing. You know?

I love it. 

Jill: Well, I'm for sure gonna look into it. Um, and why don't you tell people if they wanna find you, find out more about the work that you do? Where's the best place to find you? [00:40:00] 

Caroline: So I have a website. It's www dot samala, SAML a.ca. And samala in Swedish means to gather with the work I do. I do weddings as well as funerals, and I do death.

You gather at those things. I gather leaves and things from nature as well. I'm also on Facebook under Caroline FIUs Carpenter. I'm the only one out there. Well, I'll put a link in there anyway, because that's where 

Jill: we connected was on Facebook originally. I'll put a link in there to your website and to your Facebook if you want 

Caroline: people to find you there.

Jill: Yeah, so I'll share 

Caroline: and I, and I have a Facebook page as well, but I'm there as well. 

Jill: Well, wonderful. It was so nice to meet you. Yes. Even though we're not 

Caroline: meeting, I still feel like we're meeting. I know. And I love any opportunity I can to talk about death and dying. Me too. I just love talking about it.

Jill: Well, thank I It so important. Well, for joining me. 

Caroline: Thank you so much. This has been such a great experience. 

Jill: [00:41:00] After this conversation with Caroline, I looked online and found the same training she took was being offered near me in the fall, so I signed up to become a funeral celebrant. Something I'm really excited about and will share more with you after I complete my training and my next episode, darl McCullough shares the story behind his children's book, the Story of Tree and Cloud.

Inspired by the tragic loss of his cousin to suicide when he was just 12 years old. Darryl began processing his grief through writing, using metaphors to make sense of life, death, and what comes after decades later. When his mother was dying, he found that she had saved that childhood story for him. That moment sparked his mission to share the story with the world, to help others, young and old face the grief of losing a loved one.

Darryl speaks about the healing power of storytelling, nature and spirituality, and how his second book, chubby The Bear's, big Choice, explores themes of bullying, loneliness, and belonging. His work has touched families, children, [00:42:00] nursing home residents, and survivors of tragedy, offering hope, comfort, and a deeper sense of connection to life's beautiful cycle.

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