What Is a Death Doula? Morgan Everitt on End-of-Life Care and Building a Business

In this episode, Jill talks with her real-life friend Morgan Everitt, a death doula based in Bucks County, PA. Morgan shares how her journey began after her mom got sick in 2015. She came home to care for her, and after her mom passed in 2016, she had a powerful moment in 2017 when she overheard someone mention the word "death doula." It felt like a lightning bolt—she knew that was her calling. She started training in 2018 and has been slowly building her private practice, Heron’s Flight, over the past few years.

We talk about the important role death doulas play in end-of-life care. Morgan deeply respects hospice and palliative care and believes doulas help fill in the gaps, not compete with them. There can be tension between providers, especially in a field where most workers are women, but she emphasizes the power of collaboration. Everyone has the same goal: helping people and families have a better end-of-life experience.

Morgan shares how rewarding it is to work with clients over time, building relationships and planning ahead. That long-term support makes a big difference when the time comes. She also explains that being a death doula isn’t always easy. It can take time to make a living doing this work, and it involves much more than just sitting with people—there’s also paperwork, networking, and ongoing education.

We talk about the business side of this work—figuring out how to charge for our time. Both of us offer hourly rates or packages with payment plans to keep services accessible. We also discuss the struggle of getting people to value this kind of care. Many expect it to be free, especially when some offer it as volunteer work, which can make things harder for doulas trying to earn a living. Morgan reminds us that this work is valuable, and just like anyone else, we have bills to pay and families to support.

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Transcript

Morgan: [00:00:00] You're meeting someone at the very core of who they are and connecting in that way is so. Replenishing and beautiful, and just really a wild experience. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach. Here on my show I have conversations with guests.

That explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode, I talk with my friend Morgan Everitt, a death doula based in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, and the founder of Heron's Flight.

At the time of recording, we had not met in person. But since then, we were able to get coffee together and have even more wonderful conversations. Morgan's journey into this work began [00:01:00] after caring for her mother who passed away in 2016 when she heard the term death doula. A year later, she knew it was her calling.

She began training in 2018 and has. Been building her private practice ever since. We explore how death doulas collaborate with hospice and palliative care teams helping fill emotional and practical gaps for families. Morgan also shares behind the scenes realities of the work. Like pricing, creating service packages, and navigating the challenges of being paid for work that's deeply heart-centered.

If you're curious about what it's like to be a death doula or how these services complement end of life care, this episode offers an honest, insightful look into the role and the calling behind it. Thank you for listening to this conversation. Welcome Morgan to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on.

I know we've talked a couple times already. Officially have not met in person yet, but we don't live that far apart. We're connected because we're both death doulas. And so I'm happy to have you on today. I wanna hear all about you, [00:02:00] how you became a death doula, the whole thing. But why don't you just start it off like where you come from so that we know who you are even outside of this work.

Morgan: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm Morgan. I live in Bucks County now. I grew up outside of Philadelphia and then moved to New York and lived there for a decade and came here about three years ago. I've had my private practice here in flight for two years. Yeah. And I know 

Jill: you started Heron's Flight because your mother, you took care of her at the end of life.

Like how did that work out for you? 

Morgan: In 2015 was when she got really ill and I came home to help take care of her. She died in 2016, and so that was sort of a earth shattering experience. And then it wasn't till 2017, I was at a party and I overheard someone say. The word death doula, and I was like, oh, that's exactly it.

It just hit like [00:03:00] lightning. I started my training in 2018, so it's been kind of a slow ride. I had a lot of years of just exploring and reading and learning. 

Jill: I think most death doulas get into this because we took care of somebody at the end of life. Either it was a great experience and we want to be part of a great experience, or some people have a really terrible end of life experience and they just wanna do it different.

For other people. And so, you know, your experience with your mom, do you think overall things went as well as possible? I mean, it's never gonna be pleasant, right? Yeah. When somebody, you love eyes, but definitely you could have a really, really bad experience. Or you could have one that is as good as we could possibly make it.

Morgan: Yeah, I think it was really mixed, honestly. It. Was really difficult as these things are. She had a great medical team. I remember liking the hospice, but I do remember there were a [00:04:00] few moments where I just. Noticed how stretched thin the whole system was. My mom had a brain tumor that was growing around her brain stem, so she was slowly losing different faculty.

So towards the end, she really couldn't move or communicate or or speak. She would blink an eye to answer questions. I remember the hospice nurse sort of. Talking over her to my dad that was standing on the other side of the bed, having this conversation like she wasn't there. I don't blame the nurse at all.

I think she was so busy. There's not time to sit down and really wait for someone to sort of blink out an answer. But I was aware that the dying person should be the last person overlooked. That was the moment where I felt like there's just something. Not quite right about current way this is set up and how do we get in there and find a way to fill in those [00:05:00] human gaps.

Jill: Looking back on it for me, when I was with my grandmother, I. At the time, and I still say hospice is amazing. Yeah, absolutely. But now knowing what I know, I'm like, oh yeah, I never saw a social worker. I never saw a chaplain. I never saw anybody but a nurse once in a while. The aide came once in a while, but nobody else talked to us.

They didn't give us any help. And that's where I find it frustrating when I talk to hospice. Companies or even sometimes I interview people on my podcast that are from hospices. Mm-hmm. A lot of the response that I hear about Death Doll is, is like, well, we do that already. We have chaplains and we have social workers.

I don't know how many people are actually getting. What they should be getting and what they need. And even if they do, you know, I'm working with a friend of mine in Philly. It's been a very long process with him, which is great. Not complaining that he's still here. We're really advocating for him to have the chaplain show up, to have the aids, to [00:06:00] have all the things that he needs.

But you need to have somebody know that you need those things to advocate for it. Sometimes, yes, there is a lot of gaps in what hospice does. And again, love hospice. I'm not talking badly about hospice in general or nurses. I think you're right. They're just spread thin and I don't think they have the ability to provide a better level of care with the way that they're kind of set up right now.

Morgan: Yeah, exactly. It's not for lack of want on their part. I think there's also a little bit of frustration because we do get to do a part of that. They. Deeply love and want to do, which is understandable. I'm the same way. I love hospice. I love palliative care because I don't want them to feel like I'm coming in saying we can do it better.

I really love working and collaborating together and helping hospice move more smoothly and being like, Hey, this person would really benefit from a [00:07:00] visit from the chaplain and helping them utilize the whole service, so. I can understand hospice when they hear of death doula and it's like, oh, it's another person.

And what's their training? I think once it really clicks and we both give each other a try, it's a really positive experience. 

Jill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 'cause you're right, we work together. We're not working against each other. We're really just working together with the common goal. Right. Like that to me is the.

Frustrating part of sometimes the human tendency to find competition. We see it all the time, especially in women, and you have to admit that most people in this work as well as in hospice, there's a lot of women. Yeah. And so there does come with some of that energy of competition and that like, if you are doing this, it's taking away from me.

And it's like, well, not really. Like our common goal is to help people at the end of life and to help their families have. A [00:08:00] positive experience if it's possible. And so why should it feel like a competition when we all have the same goal? We're working towards the same thing? 

Morgan: Absolutely. And there's so many people that need help.

And I mean, as a doula it's tough because not everyone knows we exist and what we do. But even as is, there's not enough people helping, like there could always be more, especially with this sort of. Silver Tsunami 65 plus really getting very large. There's a lot of room for everybody. 

Jill: Yeah. Because there's a lot of people that are really going to be aging into a place where they're gonna need help, and that help is gonna probably fall on family members.

The cost of caring for somebody is high, and then that goes with the idea of. As death doulas, we have to charge for our work because we can't accept insurance, which is a whole other debate that we could probably talk about in a little bit [00:09:00] anyway, but we have to charge for our work and a lot of people are at a place where they can't necessarily a.

Forward to hire a death doula. And that's for one hospice nurse that I talked to that probably everybody knows Hospice Nurse Penny. 'cause she's kind of famous, you know, in our world at least. But also seems like people outside of death, doula, it's like everybody knows Hospice Nurse Penny. And I think it was after we were done recording and we were talking and she was like, look, you know, if people have the extra money, they're gonna hire a caregiver.

It's gonna come in and bathe their person and stay all night and do that stuff. They're not gonna hire a death doula. I can't argue with that though, right? If I had disposable income, I would have everybody. I'd have a death rule and I'd have the the overnight help, and I'd have everything, but I don't have that.

When it comes time to need the care for somebody in my life, if I did have a little bit of extra money, it probably would go towards somebody that can do. More of the physical [00:10:00] labor stuff that I would need help with. Not as much the emotional, the mental and the spiritual and like the things that death doulas do.

And so I dunno, it's tricky and that's why I like, I love talking to other death doulas 'cause I don't typically talk to too many death doulas in my daily life. I love talking to other depos about the 

Morgan: intricacies of all of it. Yeah, it's very nuanced and I totally agree with you. One thing that I have seen happen, which is nice, is as a doula finding resources.

I was working with a family that was really tight on money and when they did get to the point where they really needed an aid, we were able to find a church that paid for it, which was amazing. To be able to like reach out to these different places and put that together was really cool, but I also totally hear what you're saying.

Jill: And I guess that's some of the, I dunno, counterpoints that [00:11:00] I've heard some other death doulas say is that we could save you money and we can pay for ourselves in the money that we save you by helping you when it comes to finding some of the services that you need. Even things like funeral planning, a lot of people spend more money than they really need to on funerals.

Because they don't know better because they're in a vulnerable position, funeral homes or businesses just like anything else. And why not sell you the $10,000 casket? It's a business. So it is tricky because I think I. We need to make money because for us it is also a business. Ideally, I would love to give this workout to everybody for free.

I would love it, but I can't. And you know that's capitalism for you. Absolute. It's the 

Morgan: system that we live in. So, and I think a lot of people don't realize how helpful and important the death doula rule is until after the fact because it's so [00:12:00] much. Learning in real time. There's so much you don't know.

When you enter that time of life where you're a caregiver dealing with your terminal illness, one of the most common things I hear is, I wish I knew about you when such a big thing. 

Jill: Yeah, all the time. I hear that more than I hear people saying to me like, oh, you know, I know somebody that could use your services.

I hear a lot of like, well, I'm not dying or Nobody I know is dying, so I can't really use you, which. I have an argument against that too. I feel like we all could be better prepared for death and death roll could do that. But I've had people, when I wear my hoodie that's got my business name on the back and it was at the boardwalk down in Ocean City, which people around us probably know you go to the boardwalk in Ocean City, that's what you do and it's packed and there's a billion people.

Some guy came up to me through the crowd and was like, I need to know. What that is because end of life clarity kind of stands out when you say it. His wife had died and left him with three young [00:13:00] children, like he was at the rides with his young children. While I was also at the rides with my young children.

After talking for a while, he just said, I could have used somebody like you, just you, when you're in it, you don't even know to look for it, but I really could have used somebody like you. That moment for me was really impactful because it's like, how do we bridge that? Gap between people looking back and saying, I wish like I would've paid anything, is basically what this guy said to me.

I would have paid anything to have somebody like you help me and my wife through this situation. But leading up to it, people either don't know we exist. Or they're waiting almost, and it's not that I think there's ever a too late, you know, I've had people say, well, when should I hire a death doula? Is it like when my person's on hospice and they're dying?

I'm like, well, first off, you use hospice too late. But either way, yes, you can call me. Then I've sat with people that are at the end, like actively dying, and I'm not as effective. I [00:14:00] don't know them. I don't know their family. I can't as easily help advocate for them and what they need. Because I don't know them.

Where if I sit with people that we've done a plan ahead of time, I've had long conversations, I've gotten to know them, I've gotten to know their families, then I can actually advocate for you and show up and take a lot of that burden off of your family members or potentially you're not gonna end up in the hospital in the situation where it's like, well, now what do we do?

This isn't where we wanted to be. I can't help you as much now because now we need to make these really hard decisions. Do we take out oxygen? Do we take out feeding tubes? Do we take out these things that are physically keeping a body alive? But yes, call death doulas early. We can really be more effective if we talk with people earlier and get to know 

Morgan: them and what they care about.

Absolutely. I have people I'm working with now that have like. Seven year [00:15:00] prognosis, which is amazing. We'll meet like twice a month, once a month sometimes, and get to really know each other and work on plans and figuring out what that person wants and create a bond. So then when that time comes, it's so much more seamless than jumping into the deep end.

I do think there's still a lot we can bring at that time, but it's. It's gets very kind of chaotic and it's so, it's hard to get in there and advocate as best we can when we don't know that person beforehand. 

Jill: For sure. You've had your business now for two years? Mm-hmm. Most of the people that contact me about.

On my website or whatever else it is. It's not because they wanna use my services, it's because they wanna become a death doula. 

Morgan: Hmm. Yeah. That is 

Jill: 90% of my email form that I get my, you know, friend request on Facebook or Instagram or whatever else. Like everything, I would say not everything, but 90% of it is I [00:16:00] wanna become a death doula.

How do I do it? What training should I do? That's great. That's fine. I don't mind talking with people about that. I know a lot of people that listen to the podcast also, were kind of in that boat of like, Ooh, I wanna become a death dor, and I try not to be cynical and negative. I've been doing this now for five years and it's getting harder and harder to not just say to people, if you think you're gonna make money at it, please don't do it.

Yeah, you do. I could not live off of the income, like I'm not even close to being able to live off of the income that I make as a deaf doula. It's not for lack of trying. It's not for lack of networking in person and having a great website and having the podcast and having the social. Like I'm doing all the things and I've had people say to me, oh, well, online you look like you're so successful.

I'm like, I am successful. I will disagree with the fact that making money equals being successful because I feel very successful in my work as a depth ruler. I. But I also can't live off of it. And so with people listening, [00:17:00] what are some of the things that you would say, any recommendations you have?

Where do you find clients? Have you networked in person? What's this journey been like for you? For people listening that are saying, I really think I wanna do this work because it is amazing work and it's needed and it's beautiful. Also, we can't pay our bills. How do we balance that? 

Morgan: Absolutely. And I think that is something that's tricky because I don't want people to get into it thinking that they're gonna be able to support themselves right away if I don't wanna discourage people.

And I also wanna be like, it's really hard. I think it's really important to do training and volunteer work to really understand. What the work is because it's different from when you are caregiving for a family member. I mean, there's a lot of similarities, but it's also a job. So getting a feel for what that feels like.

'cause there is a huge influx of people wanting to be death to is, and I think it's really speaking to the fact that a lot of us [00:18:00] can feel that there's something missing. We. See that and kind of can feel it in our bones. So when we hear death doula, it's like, yes, that's it. But then actually turning it into a job is a different thing.

There are so many surprises in creating a business. I had no idea how often I would be answering the question, what's a death doula? Which is just such a, you know, now it's like every day how much education would be involved. The networking. The networking is something that once I get started, I enjoy it, but I definitely sit in my car beforehand, giving myself a pep talk, like, you got this.

You're not an awkward person. That kind of thing, even though I very much can be. So yeah, there's pieces of it that, and now figuring out my taxes and scheduling and all of those things. I tried several different [00:19:00] avenues with. Marketing and advertising. I wouldn't say there's anyone that's been successful.

I put an ad in a newspaper. I don't think anyone saw that. I was reading the newspaper. I read an article and then I kept summing through it looking for my ad. I had been on the page that I had read and I didn't even notice. That was tricky. And then I was writing an article for Bucks County Women's Journal, which I really enjoyed doing, and did get someone that way, which was very cool.

But I think a lot of it has been people hearing about it one way or another. Sometimes people have heard about it from a TV show or reading a book and then just searching depending on the area. So it seems to be a lot of that, a lot of people hearing about it and then Googling. Really? 

Jill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have had a few people contact me that way of like, oh, I heard of a death doula, and look to see [00:20:00] if there was anybody local to me.

Do you charge by the hour? Do you charge in a package? Typically, how do you decide? I would do it for free if I could. The money part is always tricky for me. How do you provide the value, provide the service, but also make it worth your time? 

Morgan: Really hard. It's my least favorite part for sure. What's tricky too is that when there are people in the position to do it free, it kind of hurts the other death duals that are doing it for work because it gives it a little bit of a different vibe of, of volunteer situation and it just.

Makes it really hard for everyone else. So that's a really tricky thing too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I charge hourly. I do 75 an hour, and then I do packages of 10 hours and 20 hours that have discounts and sort of work with payment plans and, and working with people. 'cause [00:21:00] I. Definitely talk with people on like a huge spectrum.

For some people, 75 is just not possible. And then other people, they're like, what? That's, you need to charge more. And it so it's, it's so interesting 'cause I want it to be accessible to everybody. It's such a tricky thing to figure out. Mm-hmm. And there's not really a blueprint for it yet. 

Jill: Yeah, and that's true.

'cause I charge the same $75 an hour. Which I feel like for the amount of emotional labor that we put out doing this work, yeah. I feel like that is reasonable. And I have had a similar response where it's like, oh, that's it. That's all you charge. You should really be charging a lot more for that. And I'm like, all right.

I try to do like a sliding fee. Yeah. I'm like, if you can't afford this though, just let me know. But that's where. I've gone around and round and round in my head. It's not like I'm getting a ton of people contacting me, but them being like, I can't afford it. I'm just [00:22:00] not getting a ton of people contacting me for my actual work.

Yeah. Again, it's more like, I wanna be a death doula. Can you tell me how you did it? And so, I don't know. I go all over the place with this, and you're right. I think there is a subset of death doulas that are. Typically older women. Mm-hmm. Either retired, they don't need income. Like for them, this is just something that they want to do.

They're out in their communities giving it for free, which I do think there is a need for that. Mm-hmm. And it does seem like it then puts this idea that this, but again, women's work is typically undervalued general. Right. And so it does kind of put this idea on it that. You should be doing this for free.

This is just something you should give to your community. I understand it. Also, I'm 46 years old. I have two children that are not even college age yet. I have a mortgage. I have car payments because somebody [00:23:00] drunk driving totaled my minivan that I had just paid off. And so now, oh, it was the worst.

Actually, no, it could have been way worse. Nobody was hurt. Yeah, including the driver. I keep saying to myself, he could have pulled out onto the busy road he was heading towards and killed somebody, and instead he killed my van. So it's fine. But also I had just paid it off eight months before this. Yeah.

I'm so excited to not have a car payment, but now I have a car payment again. It's fine. And it sucks. It's fine. And it sucks. Exactly. Yeah. But so it just makes it really hard because I can't. Just say, all right, you know what? I'll do it for free for everybody. I don't have that option. And so the only option is to figure out how to get paid for this work, how to make this sustainable, or I have to go get a full-time job, which means I'm not doing this work.

Yeah. I'm not doing it for free. I'm not doing it paid, like I'm not doing it because I'm gonna be working 40 hours a week on top of having two children and. [00:24:00] A life that I'm trying to be present for. It is so tricky. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, 

Morgan: for sure. And it is just capitalism. I mean, because it's taking from the model of when we were in villages and communities and there was generally that woman or women who were doing.

Birth and death and that was their position within the community. They receive goods in favor and everyone is sort of taking care of each other and it would be amazing if that could be how it worked. Like you go to the grocery store and they're like, have these groceries. You helped me the other day, but it's not how it is anymore.

Jill: We are in March of 2025 right now. Had to think about what year it was. Is it 20? No, it is 25. We are kind of. Watching a collapse of society, capitalism, possibly humanity. We don't really know what is collapsing right now, but things are shifting. Things are [00:25:00] changing. Positive, negative, you can debate it.

Either way it is happening. I feel that this is where death doulas are. Really needed in an unconventional way because so much is dying right now and there's gonna be so much grief, anticipatory grief and things ending and people unsure of what to do with it. That is one of the things that I didn't expect.

You mentioned earlier a little bit of like death roller work. What does it look like for us? Not really what I thought it was going to be. I'm not sitting with people who were dying. If anything, a lot more of the work feels like it's in my community of just preparing people. For death, for loss. Mm-hmm.

For grief. Like what is this that we're all experiencing? And so I see a real need for death, doulas in a very unconventional way with everything that's happening. So I don't know, for everybody out there that's listening, if you are a death doula, if you wanna become a death doula, that's great. Again, like it [00:26:00] is super, super needed in our communities.

How could we look at it outside of the box of, you know, I'm gonna sit with somebody as they die peacefully in their bed. That is not the work that we do 99.9% of the time. 

Morgan: Yeah, it's true. I think what really helps me keep going is that it feels. Our society is becoming so divided and there's so much anger and things are really intense, and doing the work that we do kind of helps me because when you meet people in their grief and in their caregiving through a terminal illness, I mean.

For me and my mom going through it, it was my absolute worst nightmare. Meeting other people inside of their worst nightmares really cuts through [00:27:00] any sort of superficial thing. You're meeting someone at the very core of who they are, and connecting in that way is so replenishing and. Beautiful and just helpful in continuing to live in the, in the time that we are right now, that, yeah, meeting people in that place is just really a wild experience.

Jill: I love that vulnerability, that connection, that way of. It's like all the walls come down. We don't have the physical or mental energy. When you're watching somebody you love, go through this experience or going through it yourself to care about what your political or religious beliefs are, or all the things that we let get in the way in our day-to-day life.

At that moment, you just don't have the energy to care about those things. They're just not important anymore, and I love being able to [00:28:00] meet people in that space. Yeah. And feel like this is the real us. Mm-hmm. This is the real human experience. I don't care what your political beliefs are, what your religious beliefs are, I don't care whether you're male, female, trans, whatever else, we're all gonna die, right?

Mm-hmm. That is the one universal thing. We're all gonna die. All of us have a fear of it, right? Mm-hmm. No matter how good we are with death, no matter what our spiritual beliefs are about what comes afterwards, we kind of all really have a fear of it. And so that is something that doesn't matter. We all are gonna be in that place at some point.

I think a lot of the quote unquote problems in the world right now are really just our fear of death. You know, that we're all afraid of dying and that we're all afraid that this other is going to be the person to end our life. I mean, I know that's a concern on my part, right? That like. I still hear about the Salem witch trials and I'm like, [00:29:00] mm.

Yeah, because again, socially awkward, kinda weird woman with lots of tattoos. Yeah. That also has like some crazy garden out front. We would get screwed. We would be screwed Again, the ones that work with the dying people that aren't afraid to show up and stick with you while you're taking your last breath, who are they gonna call a witch and come after?

Right. All of us right here. And so legitimately there is a part of me that's like. I don't dislike them as individual people. 

Morgan: Mm-hmm. 

Jill: But I am afraid they're gonna kill me. That's 

Morgan: so fair. I like what you said about everyone having a fear of death. To some extent, sometimes as doulas, people think that maybe we're not scared at all or, or that that's the ultimate goal, to not be scared at all, when in reality it's the most human.

Feeling possible. What's funny to me is that my relationship with death started when I was very little. I became [00:30:00] obsessed with the idea of death, and I was so terrified of it. I always thought I had a tumor or I was internally bleeding or about to have a heart attack. And then once I started driving, I would wake up every morning and be like, today's the day.

Today's the day I'm gonna die. And then the next day I'd be like, I know I said that yesterday, but it's definitely today. And I was just. Stuck looping on it all the time, and then when I had to really meet death, face to face, kind of in the trenches with my mom and holding her as she died, seeing it so up close and seeing it happen was what really made my fear.

Dissipate more and now being so up close to it and kind of interacting with it all the time and it's woven into our day and I'm always talking about it. It helped so much with the anxiety and fear, but then of course there's always gonna [00:31:00] be a little layer of that there. I totally understand. And I love actually talking to other people who are really.

Scared and anxious. I don't love that they're scared and anxious, but I get it so much. Absolutely. 

Jill: I've never had a fear of death, even as a child. It's never frightened me. If anything, as I got a little bit older, I was super at peace with it. I was like, I don't wanna die tomorrow. But if I did okay, like I'm fine.

That's amazing. Until I had kids, then it became a different story because it's not about me now. It was this fear of dying and leaving little children without a mother. It doesn't mean that my husband couldn't get remarried and potentially to a really amazing woman that could like. Step in and fill that role, but it's never gonna be their mother.

I don't want to leave my children with that. But I have found that used to have really bad anxiety about one of my children becoming a heroin addict. Like ending up on the streets, like dying on the streets. You know, getting [00:32:00] into like, I don't know, just car accidents. Like I had a real fear of that. That was like causing me a lot of anxiety.

I'm like. Maybe I should stop obsessing about the fact that one of our kids is gonna become a heroin addict and die of a drug overdose. Maybe I should stop thinking that way. And the thing that really got me to stop thinking that way is to really get okay with death. Get okay with dying. And to talk with so many people that have had children die from heroin overdoses to talk with people that have just had children.

Get this weird illness at 13, 14, 15, whatever else it is, and they're dead by 17. My worst nightmare. But it happens to people every day. I can't walk around afraid that it's gonna happen to me. The only thing I can do is try to show up every single day and be as present as possible with my children. So if, God forbid, knock on wood, 'cause I'm a little [00:33:00] superstitious, if that were to happen.

I at least could look back and be like, yeah, but you know what? The time that they were on this earth, I know that I did the best I could to be there and show them that they were loved and appreciated. But there's still that part of me that's like, please, God, if you are real and you're listening, don't let it be my kid.

But also why not my kid? There's women all over the world right now watching their children get blown up by doms. So like I feel a little bit shitty even asking. For my children to not be the ones. 

Morgan: Yeah, that's so, but also 

Jill: all of it could be real. Right? I could want 

Morgan: it and be realistic. So true. Being a doula, you just have to know that several things can be true at the same time.

The beauty of life and the tragedy of it or something being fine, but also really sucking the situation you're in. Being awful, but knowing other people have it worse and just holding all of those truths at the same. Time. [00:34:00] It's interesting being in this work. I've met a lot of people who have lost children.

I don't even have kids yet and I want them, I'm already nervous, but I think what I think about a lot is there were two different women I was talking to who had both lost children. I asked them if they would do it again and they were like, absolutely no question. I think about that a lot and then also there's just so much we can't, I.

Control. Mm-hmm. Staggering the amount we can't control and that worry to protect ourselves. I get it. My poor brain is trying so hard to protect me and I was like, calm down. You don't have to go to the worst case scenario every time. Let's just be in the day today. 

Jill: Yeah. I mean, that's all we can do is be in this day today, even though it's raining out right now, overall.

I can't really complain, right? It's springtime. My flowers are blooming uhhuh again. As far as I know, my kids are at school. [00:35:00] They're happy, they're healthy. My husband's finally home. He was trapped in London after that fire at Heathrow on Friday, so he got home at like one o'clock in the morning last night.

I feel so much better now that he's home. Overall life is good, and that's the thing too. So I know you have your social media and now you kind of have two. You have your personal that you used to do ola, then you brainstorm and now you're working with somebody else and you have a death one, and then your personal one.

You're always really honest about life and stuff on your social media, which I appreciate and I envy a little bit. I am not super comfortable. Being myself on social media, I try. I just feel. Stupid feel goofy. So you know, your social media, how does that work for you as far as spreading death, positivity, not even death, positivity, death education, but also just for your own personal self?

How do you find 

Morgan: that? I feel silly all of the time. The only reason why I was able to [00:36:00] build that is it was a. Sort of a covid project. My therapist at the time was like, you should start a TikTok channel. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna try. The reason why I think I was able to talk about things on there is because no one I knew was on there.

It was all people I didn't know that were following me. There's something about the anonymity of it that was so freeing. Now it's evolved a bit where there are some more people I know on there, and that makes me really shy, but I love being able to use it. To talk about mental health and death education.

This other one, Lamar, is my good friend Lauren. She co-founded the Death Wives and then. Has branched off and created her new school, Lamar, and so she asked me to help with the social media side of it. So we've been working on that, which has been really fun. I'm just kind of feeling 

Jill: it 

Morgan: out. 

Jill: Yeah. I think you had the one video where you [00:37:00] guys are dressed as flowers or something.

It's definitely fun. That's some of the struggles I have with. Social media or even sending emails to people is like the topic that we talk about. It's not fun necessarily. Right. And I've read, you know, of course, like every other business owner, I take workshops, classes, and business coaches. I'm like, I'm doing the whole thing.

And they'll be like, you need to lighten things up. Not to me specifically, but like some of the. Feedback to people. It's like, you need to lighten it up. You need to tell jokes, it needs to be funny, it needs to be all these things. And I'm like, but like, 

Morgan: hmm, 

Jill: I don't know. I don't know about telling a whole lot of jokes, right, when I'm talking about that.

Plus, that's just not my personality anyway. But yeah, you know, it's just such a interesting subject because on one hand I fully believe it doesn't have to be morbid. It doesn't have to be heavy, it doesn't have to be overwhelming. Also, I need to be sensitive to the fact that, to so many [00:38:00] people, the word death, they've never even said it out loud.

You know that they potentially went through a really traumatic experience with a loved one that they're dealing with a lot of nonprocessed grief. So like. The topics that we're talking about on one hand don't have to be heavy, but also they can be super triggering for people because we've avoided it our entire life.

And you seem to have found the good balance, good of making it kind of fun and making it kind of funny. Yeah. While also talking about the realities of it. So I think you're doing a great job with it. But I know it's hard. 

Morgan: Yeah, it is. And it's interesting too. I know that for businesses, I hear from a lot of people feeling very stressed out about social media.

I love it for sharing information, but it's not a way that I like get business. So it's, it's really just like, for me, fun and, and also like [00:39:00] being an actor for so long, it's pretty. Natural because I have some background in that. So it's just fun. But I, I think if it's not fun, I always feel like, oh, you are good.

Jill: And that's, I love this, like I love my podcast. Yeah. I love talking to people. This I really enjoy. But again, just talking at my phone and I'm not. I walked up on stage once when I was in ninth grade. Mm-hmm. And I got up there and I looked at my teacher and all the other students. I literally couldn't open my mouth.

I was like, I can't do this. I turned around and I walked off the stage and I did the sets and the makeup and all the other stuff for four years in my school. Never went back on a stage again. It's just like not in me to kind of be that person. And so I am trying to find that balance of, I wanna share information.

That is helpful to people while also keeping it so that I could enjoy it and not feel like it's like pulling my teeth [00:40:00] out every time I try to do it. So I don't know. It's a tricky place to be, and you're right. I don't think it brings people business necessarily. When I tried the paid ads for workshops and things that I've done, unless you drop a lot of money, they don't seem to really work either.

And then once you do it once. Now everything I posted, it's like four people saw it because I didn't pay to boost it. I'm like, uh, capitalism again for the win on that one. But I do like your social media. I do enjoy that. It feels like I get to know you as a person. Like you posted something about really liking crazy pattern clothes, but then never actually going out, and then that's totally me.

I have stuff that I bought at thrift stores. And then I go to put it on and I'm like, no, I just need to put my all black on because I need to hide in the crowd. I don't wanna stand out any more than I probably already do. 

Morgan: Yeah, exactly. I think what I like about it is similar to doula work and also the acting work of just cutting through [00:41:00] this extra stuff and just talking about the human experience that we're all having, and there's so many similarities and.

Differences, but it's, it is true. Like so many of us have these crazy awesome clothes and feel too shy to wear it outside. It's, it's just part of being a human. So it's fun to connect with people in that way. 

Jill: And you're right, I think there's a lot of things that it is just part of being a human, and yet we judge ourselves and we shame ourselves and we beat ourselves up.

When like, I don't know, it's part of being a human and in the long run there's a lot of things I would change about humanity for sure. 100%. But also I feel like we we're doing a lot of like there's this and there's that, and both are true, but also at the same time I think about how boring life would be if there wasn't people that totally disagreed with me on things and had totally different personalities and totally different likes and the things that sometimes drive me crazy about [00:42:00] humans.

All sort of the things that make life a little bit interesting. I don't know if I would like it any other way, so maybe it's more just that we need to chill out a little bit and stop worrying so much, but again. 99% of what I'm worried about with other people. It's not that you like this person versus that person, or that you dress this way or you eat these foods.

It's more that I'm worried that you're going to kill me for being different than you. It's not that I care that you're different than me. I would never do that to somebody else. Like I'm not the type of person that I'm gonna go get that other person 'cause they're different than me. That's just not my personality, but there's definitely been some people that I've met where I'm like, oh, you would kill me if you thought you could get away with it.

I could tell by the way you're looking at me, I could feel your energy. This is not the world I wanna live in where you could get away with it. It's interesting being a human for sure. 

Morgan: It sure is. It's quite an experience. I think about that all the time when annoying things are [00:43:00] happening or I'm frustrated because I'm being too pessimistic.

It's just helpful to remember that we're here to experience it and that's part of it. Same with when that people ask if death do work is really sad, it's like, yeah, that's a part of what we're here to feel. Okay. 

Jill: Yeah. 

Morgan: Yeah. Well, 

Jill: we're almost at time. Yeah, because imp flies I Why don't you tell us a little bit about where people can find you, your business name, your social medias, if somebody wants to look you.

Morgan: Yeah, my business is Heron's flight, so the website is probably the best place to go, which is heron's flight doula.com, and you can email me through there and all that good stuff. TikTok, if people, I don't know, not many people I know have a TikTok, so I always feel funny talking about it. The. Deaf focused.

One is La Mort and my more personal one is Morning Town. That's a little more like mental health and that kind of thing. And then, yeah, I have a Heron's Flight [00:44:00] doula Instagram, so I'm around, I'll post links 

Jill: to all of it. When the show notes, do you work with people only in person locally? 'cause you said you're Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

Yeah. Work with people virtually. Do you teach classes in your community? What kind of work do you typically do? Yeah. 

Morgan: Largely do in person. And then there are some people I have online. I try to do a 45 to an hour radius, so some people who are a little further away will meet online most of the time, and then occasionally in person.

I love in person, but kind of meeting people where they're at and helping them in any way that is easiest for them. 

Jill: I love it so much. It's so nice to chat with you again. We will have to finally get together in person. Really? Yeah, because you're not that far. I'm right outside of Philly. On the other side, on the Jersey side.

Sometimes getting around Philadelphia is like the hardest part it takes. Oh yeah. So it's like, [00:45:00] even though, what do they say is like the bird flies? We're not that far apart. Philadelphia traffic. That could take a while. 

Morgan: Very true. 

Jill: Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Morgan. It was so great to chat.

Thank you for having me. It's really lovely. In my next episode, I talk with Matt Jacobson about the sudden loss of his father and how it changed the course of his life. Stepping into his father's role in the family mattress business. Matt began a journey through grief that eventually inspired him to create Lifebook more than just a book.

Lifebook is a personalized hardbound tribute that preserves the stories and legacy of a loved one with contributions from family and friends. We explore the themes of grief, love, and how our connections endure even after death. If you enjoyed this episode. Please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your [00:46:00] positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

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Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death. Clearly.