Jessica Fein’s Story of Grief, Family, and Healing

Jessica Fein shares her deeply personal journey of loss, grief, and resilience. Having lost two sisters, three parents, and most recently, her teenage daughter Dahlia—who passed away one week after her 17th birthday—Jessica's life has been profoundly shaped by death. Her memoir, which explores Dahlia’s life and the journey of moving forward together, has become a key part of her work in writing about grief.

Society widely acknowledges the devastation of losing a child, but the grief of siblings, who lose their lifelong companions and history keepers, is sometimes unrecognized. She discusses how children not only mourn their sibling but also experience the additional pain of witnessing their parents' grief, often feeling invisible in the process.

Jessica speaks about how the trauma of a long-term illness shaped their family. Dahlia lived with a degenerative disease from age five, creating an ongoing cycle of anticipatory and ambiguous grief. She explains ambiguous grief as mourning someone who is still alive but profoundly changed—whether due to illness, addiction, or other circumstances. This concept helped her make sense of the loss she experienced over time as Dahlia lost the ability to walk, talk, and even breathe without assistance. It also highlighted the loss of normalcy and community, isolating their family in ways few can understand.

She also touches on the impact of grief on relationships, acknowledging that 87% of marriages dissolve when a child has special needs, let alone a terminal illness. She and her husband grieve differently—she finds healing in open conversations, while he prefers silence. Understanding these differences has helped them navigate their loss together rather than apart.

TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClaQkyLnAaw

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/jessica.fein.92/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/feinjessica/

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-fein-b643b09

Personal Website: https://www.jessicafeinstories.com

Transcript

Jessica: [00:00:00] I am as a person who has lived most of my adult life as a griever. I am trying to help with the awareness of the fact that we are grief-illiterate as a society because I think it's something we can improve on. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach.

Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

In this episode, I talk with Jessica Fine, whose life has been shaped by death, having lost two sisters, three parents, and most recently her teenage daughter, Dalia, who died just days after her 17th birthday. Jessica shares her journey through grief, resilience, and finding ways to move [00:01:00] forward. We talk about sibling loss.

And often overlooked grief and the unique challenges faced by surviving siblings. Jessica also discusses the complexities of anticipatory and ambiguous grief as Dahlia’s degenerative disease gradually took away pieces of her over time. She opens up about the impact of loss on relationships. And the different ways that people grieve.

Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome, Jessica to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today. If you just wanna start us off, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you come from, anything that you wanna share. 

Jessica: Okay, great. First of all, thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here.

I am talking to you from just outside of Boston. I am very immersed. In the topics you talk about in your podcast. My life has involved a lot of loss, a lot of death. I have lost not only my two sisters and three parents, [00:02:00] but most recently my teenage daughter, Dalia, who died one week after her 17th birthday.

Right now my work is very much around. Writing. My memoir came out recently, which talks about my daughter's life and about how we move on together with, and also I'm very involved now in writing about issues that pertain to grief. 

Jill: Yeah. I'm so sorry for your loss. Loss is, but I think especially a child that, you know, it's not a natural order of things for our brain, right?

Our brain says not a natural order of thing. We die first, 

Jessica: and I'll add in there, nor is sibling loss at a young age. And I bring that up because I think sibling loss often is overlooked. And having lost my sister and now being a mother of two children who lost their sister, I have an interesting perspective on the.

Whole notion of sibling loss as a society. We all appreciate the [00:03:00] hugeness and the devastation that accompany child loss because as you say, it is out of order. Sometimes I think we. Don't realize that those two things could be said as well about sibling loss. The worst thing that can happen is losing a child.

And that's true. But there are other worst things too. 

Jill: How old were you when you lost your sisters? 

Jessica: My first sister died when I was 27 and she was 30, and my second sister died more recently, which I'm quite a bit older than 27 now. Both of them were very profound losses. 

Jill: Yeah. And 27 is such an interesting age.

Because we feel like we're adults, but we're kind of not, especially as we're older and we look back, I'm like, no, I was still a baby. Oh, I was a baby. 

Jessica: Siblings are your history keepers. I was the youngest. These are the people who were with me from the day I was born. I was so lucky to have the kind of relationships with both of my sisters where they were not only siblings, but also best friends.

That's a really profound. Profound thing. And then for many people, when they lose siblings, of course [00:04:00] they then become solo caregivers for their parents when they always assumed they'd be in it, you know, as a team sport. So that's another element that I think is often overlooked. 

Jill: Yeah, that's true. And I actually had somebody on my podcast that wrote a book about sibling loss.

It's such a topic that I hadn't really thought about how different that loss is for people and how. Important. 

Jessica: It is being the mother of two people who lost their sibling. I see it from such a, a different vantage point now because in, in our case, my daughter had an insidious illness, a degenerative disease that she lived with from the diagnosis at age five until she was 17.

There was a lot of ongoing trauma in our home that they were part of as well. When a teenager dies, everybody descends on the parents. People show up for the parents and not only have the children lost their sibling. But also they're now seeing their parents being totally preoccupied with loss, so they're not getting from their parents what they once did.

I just feel like [00:05:00] it's something that I like to raise awareness about when I have the opportunity, because it's also something that's addressable. When people hear it and pause for a second and they're like, oh yeah, then you can show up in a different way for the siblings. For a lot of people, it's easier.

To show up for children who have lost their sibling than it is for a grieving parent. I mean, it's hard being around a grieving parent. I'm a grieving parent and I've been around a lot, and I still find it hard, right? This sibling, depending on the age of the sibling, maybe it's something as simple as taking them out for ice cream, giving them just some attention, and that might be more comfortable for people.

Jill: And how old are your two surviving children? 

Jessica: Well, now they are 17 and 22. Then they were 15 and 20. 

Jill: Yeah. So again, it's not super young, but still that very formative time in your life. Yes. And you know, was there anything that you did as a parent to try to give your children, even if it wasn't you giving them the support, but [00:06:00] maybe recruiting some people?

Like is there something that you did that really you think could be helpful for other parents that maybe are going through something similar? 

Jessica: We were very much a unit as a family, the five of us, because our life was so intense for so many years, and my daughter died during COVID for the last two years of her life.

It was really the five of us. We were very much a team during her life and remained after her life. And I will say that there were some people who showed up for them, and because it's not the norm, it really stood out for us. If you're out of town, sending the child something in the mail with their name on it, and, and this is so, seems so obvious, and maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal, but if you think about the fact that every single day.

Flowers are arriving for the parents and meals and cards. Then the kid gets a package that says, here, here's a cozy throw or a stuffed animal, whatever the age is, that means so much. And because it was so unusual [00:07:00] when people did that, it really stood out. Again, if you're local, yes. Showing up and saying, Hey, you want, like taking the kid out of the house and giving them some space to either to be a kid.

Or to be able to unload. Because another thing is the kid sees how much the parent is going through and doesn't wanna unload their pain onto the parent, but her pain is just as significant. 

Jill: Yeah. And I know that I had read at one point, you know, I read a lot of books about death and grief for obvious reasons.

But there was one of the things that I just remember early on when I was learning that her, like my core a lot was reading about siblings. Feeling like they also lost their parents after their sibling died because the parent just couldn't show up anymore. And so not only did they lose their sibling, but they lost their parent even though the parent was still physically there.

And like for some reason, that itself just like hurt me. I was like, oh, that's so heartbreaking, heartbreaking, and so true. Yeah, that is really sad. [00:08:00] And so your daughter, Dalia, you said she was ill for a while, uh, before she died. I know there's a lot of people that talk about like anticipatory grief, like this idea of, you know, that the death is coming and so you're already starting to grieve because.

You know it's coming. But did you know, like was it kind of a surprise the timing that she died or was it really a progression where they were like, no, it's probably gonna be, 

Jessica: well, a couple of things on that. First of all, I think she way exceeded anybody's expectations in terms of living to 17. But you know, we remained.

Hopeful because that's how we got through. I wanna introduce the idea of ambiguous grief, because I think that we're so familiar with anticipatory grief, which is exactly what it sounds like. And I think a lot of us go through this with our parents, right? 'cause we expect that our parents will pass before we do, and many of our parents pass after illnesses.

So we know what anticipatory grief is. Right, but a lot of people don't know about ambiguous [00:09:00] grief. I didn't, and I was living in such a totally perfect example of an ambiguous grief situation. Once I learned about it, it helped me so much because knowing that this is a real thing, that there's a name to it.

Makes you feel like, okay, it takes away some of the power. It's like, now I know what that is. Now we can move forward together. Like, oh, ambiguous grief. I've gotcha. I do know that a lot of people haven't heard about ambiguous grief. I'm not sure if you've talked about it a lot on your show, but the idea of grief for somebody who is still living right.

And maybe they're not with you physically. Maybe they're a prisoner of war or whatever, or maybe they are with you physically, but not in the way they used to be. Maybe they're suffering from addiction or dementia. Right. So it's, you're grieving, but the person is still alive. And I, I think particularly for parents, when we have a child who is ill, I know I felt this way.

I was like, I'm not grieving my kid while she's still alive. Absolutely not. That wouldn't be fair to her and that wouldn't be fair to me. If grief comes, there'll be a time and a place for that, but that time and place is not now and not here. I was very [00:10:00] staunch about that, and then I learned about ambiguous grief and I was like, oh, because the thing is, it wasn't only that my daughter with a degenerative disease was losing functionality, for example, over time, losing the ability to walk, to talk, to eat, to breathe without a ventilator, and ultimately to move in any way.

Those are very. Profound losses, but there's also the loss of any kind of normalcy, the loss of the life we had imagined, right? The loss of a community, because it's very isolating. I mean, we could do a whole show just on the losses that accompany a situation like that. And so this idea of, yes, the person is still alive, but there's profound grief for us, that was a really big thing that we had to contend with over many years.

Jill: Because you're right. People don't talk about it that much, and I don't know if I've had any, but I know one of the classes that I've done in my community is this idea of grieving people that are no longer with us, even when they're still alive, whether it's estrangement, whether it's being in prison, [00:11:00] addicted to drugs.

Yeah. We just don't talk about it. Not. And that's right. All those 

Jessica: examples you gave are so important. Estrangement. That is such a hard one. Mm-hmm. And I've spoken with parents whose children are estranged from them and that's like, talk about ambiguous. 'cause they're alive. And that's such a complex situation.

Right. And so worthy of intense grief. 

Jill: No, it's true. We don't often allow ourselves to properly grieve things. We really should grieve. I think it's a important part of the human experience to properly grieve our losses. And we don't teach people how to do that. We don't give them the space or the support to do it.

We just kind of wanna shove it in the corner and 

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. And so then it makes the person feel even more isolated. I just actually did a TED talk on that very topic, why it's so lonely, right? Because we don't know what to do. We don't know what to say. We're so ill-equipped and how we can improve on that.

Jill: Is your TED talk out yet? 

Jessica: Yes. 

Jill: Awesome. I'll put a little on you too. Show notes. YouTube? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'll link it in the show notes so people can watch it. [00:12:00] And so what type of work do you do? I know you said you kinda like work with grief, but what does that mean for you? What does that look like for you?

How do you kinda maneuver in the world of grief work? 

Jessica: And I wanna be really clear, like I'm not a therapist. I'm not a social scientist. What I am is a person who has lived most of my adult life as a griever. I resisted stepping into that for a long time. I've had a corporate career for 30 years. Grief is not my full-time gig officially, but really, truly grief is so ingrained in who I am that I guess it is kind of my full-time gig in that I take that experience with me.

Wherever I am. But I left my job in May, and I had been in that job for 26 years, and I really am in the creative field, and that's what I was doing for 26 years. But now it's really in the form of writing and speaking. And so obviously we talked about my book. I also write a column on grief and [00:13:00] psychology today called Grace and Grief, and really trying to surface some of these areas and some of these issues because I am.

Trying to help with the awareness of the fact that we are grief illiterate as a society and because I think it's something we can improve on, I really think we can move the needle. It's about awareness and it's about getting more education from a younger age. What's really. Obvious to me is that grief is the single most universal emotion I can think of.

Nothing else that pretty much you're gonna go through. Probably everybody's gonna have a great love, but maybe not. We are all going to grieve for somebody at some point. Therefore, it ought to bring us closer together. We ought to be like, I got you. I know what you're going through. I've been there. That's just the opposite of what happens.

People disappear. People are so awkward, so uncomfortable. So when you ask what's my work, I really at this point am stepping more into trying to raise awareness about some of these issues and having conversations like this one [00:14:00] where we can talk about it. 'cause we both see eye to eye and maybe some listeners are saying, oh, well I never thought about it that way.

And so for me that's incredibly rewarding Also. I have learned is that we're not trying to get over our grief, right? This is really important to me because why in the world would I wanna spend a day where I wasn't loving and missing my people? And that's really what grief is, right? It's the opposite.

It's love. And so how do we move with our grief, not get over it? That's another thing that I have a lot of focus on and how we can be really joyful. And that's okay. We can be grieving and be joyful. 

Jill: And you know, when you lost your daughter, did you find that you were having complicated emotions during grieving?

Because I know sometimes, especially if somebody's ill, people will almost feel a sense of relief that they're not suffering anymore and then they beat themselves up because it's like we are so 

Jessica: good at beating ourselves up. Right. I feel like we are ready. We're like. I'm not grieving [00:15:00] the right way. I'm not grieving long enough.

I'm grieving too long. I'm smiling. I'm not smiling. Like whatever it is. And so first of all, I would say like, there's no right way. There's no wrong way. You know, whatever works for you or doesn't work for you. You feel what you feel. I. I think grief is complicated and I know obviously there's a diagnosis of, you know, having complicated grief.

I, I think grief is complicated and I think one of the things that makes it most complicated is that it's so individual so you can lose the same person. For example, my husband and I lost the same person. We lost the same part of our identity, our kid so much about it ought to be like, okay, we are so in sync.

And I will say, my husband and I agree even wildly different ways I. So I think that understanding that it can be isolating even if you're not quote unquote alone in your grief. 

Jill: Hmm. Is there anything that you think really helped you and your husband, because that's, again, something else that I hear is.

Relationships that fall apart [00:16:00] after the death of a child. 

Jessica: Oh God. Listen, they fall, they fall apart before the death. Right? We know that 87% of marriages dissolve when a kid with special needs forget about the fact of, of an ill child and then a child who dies and sometimes, I mean, it's very. I can see why it happens, right?

I mean, it's not a great mystery. I think being able to acknowledge that the loss isn't more or less profound for either person, but you might deal with it in really different ways, and that's our situation, right? I really. Get that. And I think he does too. That doesn't make us feel more estranged from each other.

I'll give you a perfect example. This conversation that we're having now would make him want to tear his hair out. There is nothing he, he would want to do less than talk publicly about these things. I have been waiting eagerly for this conversation. I, I love talking to you. I would talk about grief and loss, and particularly my [00:17:00] daughter and my sisters all day long If I could.

It doesn't mean that I miss them anymore or loved them anymore, it's just that we deal with it in such different ways. Right? Being able to see that and not be like, why aren't you talking about it more? You know, 

Jill: some people, I feel that judgment of like, well, you're not grieving them enough. You're not crying, you're not talking about it.

That's just a thing in general with humans that frustrates me, is the way that we judge each other so much. Uhhuh, I mean, 

Jessica: I'm like, who has time like judge to, you know, we judge ourselves, as we were saying, in our grief. We judge each other. There's enough other things to be focused on. We don't need to be mired in judgment, but I guess I get judgy sometimes too.

I guess it's human nature. Yeah. 

Jill: I think so too. I think it is part of the human experience. What we do with the judgment, the important part, right? Natural reaction sometimes is to see something, judge the experience, judge the reaction, whatever else. But that doesn't mean we have to tell the person, it doesn't mean we have to.

Right. Like just process that on within yourself [00:18:00] and then Yes. 

Jessica: Right. Process 

Jill: it within yourself. Yeah. And I think one of the things. Two that I've learned and I have noticed in me is that so often when I'm judging somebody else, if I really sit with it, it's because I am actually judging myself for it or afraid other people are judging me for it, right?

Like when I really get to the core of it, I'm like, oh. Alright. It's okay. Just let it all go. But it is interesting how we do that. We project it on the other people. Yeah. And really it's our own judgment of, but that's a whole other topic. Whole other episode probably. Yeah, exactly. We probably talk for hours about.

And so what inspired you to write your book? 

Jessica: Yeah, so I had written a book before and I had written a lot of essays that I used to be a columnist, so this was not something I had never done before. I think that I. Creativity in general is a really great outlet, whatever that looks like for each individual.

And maybe that's baking and maybe that's planting flowers, and in my case, it's writing. [00:19:00] So that for me has always been a good outlet and I've always been very comfortable in an essay format. I had not ever written a memoir before, but I knew while we were going through what we were going through, that it was both completely rare, right?

I mean, my daughter. Was one of six in the world with her particular dual diagnosis. So I knew it was unique and I also knew there was so much about it that was universal and I wanted to bear witness to it in the way I knew how, which was through writing. It became clear to me once I got into it that it really wasn't a collection of essays, that this is more of a memoir chronological.

Chronology. I think this is really important. This book was written at my daughter's lifetime and was actually on its way to publication during her lifetime. This is not a book about my daughter's death, and I wanna be really clear about that. That's not to say there would never be a book about that, but that's not this book.

This is very much about. Her life and equally important, it's about the transformations I went through over the [00:20:00] course of becoming her mother and then mothering her and my other children. So that's this story, and yes, it's not a spoiler. She did die once. It was in the publication process and I put an epilogue in, but that's not the main point of this book.

Jill: And so you said how much it changed you like the experience? Yeah. What is probably the, I don't wanna say the biggest or the best change, but like what do you think kind of. When you look back to who you were before and you look at yourself now, what is the one thing that you're like, why that's 

Jessica: so hard?

Alright, I'll give you, maybe I can give you one and a half or something. Yeah, sure. Okay. Well, first of all, I will tell you that my husband and I adopted our three children. And when you adopt children, at least at the time, I don't know how it works now. There's an awful lot of. Conversation and home study and paperwork and all this kind of stuff, right?

And one of that you have to do is you fill out a very lengthy questionnaire [00:21:00] about what quote unquote conditions you would be open to. You have this long checklist and it's many things you've heard of and many things you haven't heard of in terms of special needs, medical things, et cetera. When we got to that part of the form, I looked at my husband and I said.

I don't want any of that. We have been through many years of fertility treatments. This was gonna be our quote unquote Sure thing. And I didn't wanna raise my hand to take on anything additional. He being a much better person than I am was like, I'm open to any of it. But you know, I wasn't, and so we didn't check any of those boxes.

I would not have thought that I was capable of the parenting on the precipice lifestyle that we went through, and I surely would not have and did not sign up for it. And so I think that one of the things that I learned is how much I. More we are all capable of than we think we are. Right, and I thank God that we didn't know about Dahlia's diagnosis.

Because if we had known, we wouldn't have adopted her. And I'm not proud of that. But [00:22:00] it's the truth. We would've said, we'll wait for the next child, and then who would I be now? Right. I mean, it's so obvious to me that Dahlia was meant to be mine. I was meant to be hers. I am who I am in large part, have been her mother.

I, I was well aware of that. On the day of her diagnosis, I said that. Thank God we didn't know. I didn't regret a thing. And so I think that that's one thing is that I learned we can do things we never would've imagined possible. I also learned that we can't fix things all the time, and that was a really big learning for me because I'm a fix it kind of person.

When Dahlia was diagnosed, my immediate go-to was, okay, we have a diagnosis, so now there'll be a treatment and a cure. And then we found out that there was no treatment and there was no cure, and so then I thought, well, then I'll make one. I am not a scientist. I am not a rich person. I am not in the medicine field at all.

I just told you I was a creative, right? And so I still felt like if I put my mind to it, if I try hard enough, I will personally cure this [00:23:00] disease. And I know so many parents who I. Uh, who, who first of all feel that way. And by the way, I will say in the world of rare disease, it is often parents who move, who do move the needle, who get the research funded.

That was not my case. And so coming to terms with the fact that I could be out somewhere trying to personally cure an incurable disease that I. By the way, plenty of brilliant people are trying to do, who actually know what they're doing. Or I could focus on how are we going to create a life of meaning and joy in the face of this insidious decree, and how are we gonna give our kids a childhood?

And how can I be present for my kids? And that doesn't mean I wasn't still trying to stay engaged and learn as much as I could, but it wasn't at the expense of being a mom. And providing, you know, some semblance of joyful, and that had to be deliberate. We can't fix it all, but the bigger thing it is, we can create a life of joy and meaning and carve out corners of beauty in [00:24:00] the midst of the most horrific situation.

Jill: What's one of your favorite memories that you have with Dalia and the family and just. There's moments of joy, like what's some of your favorite? Yeah. 

Jessica: Oh, there's so many. One of them is that there's a town beach we found, and the beach had a mat that went from the parking lot to the water, making it wheelchair accessible.

And this is something that is seemingly so simple and so horrible that every single public beach doesn't do this. And when we found it, it was like a miracle, right? Because now we could go to the town beach and we could get Dalia right up close to, I mean, you couldn't wheel her wheelchair on the sand.

So this was an impossibility otherwise. And in fact, the mat went to the dock so we could then wheel her out onto the dock and we could get her a fishing rod. And even when her hands became too weak and her arms became too weak to hold that fishing rod, we could prop her arm up and she could be with the rest of the family, and we [00:25:00] could be out on a glorious summer day and she could be fishing.

So, you know, things that are seemingly ordinary become so extraordinary and there's such victory in being able to do something as simple as take the family to the beach. That becomes magic. 

Jill: I've found that even. With my work of talking so much about death and grief and talking to so many people that the ordinary moments in my life are magic.

Yes. I really have so much gratitude for having healthy children. My children are now 11 and 14 and knowing that could change at any moment, any of them could get a diagnosis. I could, my husband could, one of us could get into an accident, like I know that it could change at any moment. So every moment.

I'm so grateful for it. Yeah. And it changed the way that I live my life, and unfortunately we do have to sometimes go through really, really difficult situations to get there, but I don't think that we have to, if we don't run away from the difficult, like you were saying earlier. About grieving and just [00:26:00] how we don't get through it.

We don't get over it. We just have to be with it, and it's okay. Just have to be with 

Jessica: it. 

Jill: It's okay to feel uncomfortable. It's okay to feel sad, but we run away from big feelings. It frustrates me sometimes when I see people doing it, but again, there's that judgment piece. Yes. Part is like I try to not judge.

But it also makes me sad for how much of life people miss because they run away from the big emotions. 

Jessica: That's so true. And how much they miss because they're always seeking something that would be fun and different and unusual. And I will tell you that when I was in the midst of this for 10 years, I dreamt.

Longed for being quote unquote bored. Every minute was so intense and we were on the precipice, and every minute was literally life and death. And all I wanted was to be like, you know, went into somebody and you're like, Hey, what's up? And they're like, oh, not much. Same old, same old. And I was like, wow.

What must that be Like? Can you imagine having a day [00:27:00] where there weren't. 50 things that needed to be done at very prescriptive times where it was just like, oh, here's a day and I could do with it whatever I want. That was kind of like a fantasy for me, and I think that people who are in that, you would never appreciate that if you didn't live without it.

Jill: Yeah, for sure. And when you were in that time period where it was like 50 different things in one day, you were still working, you still had two other children, you were still a wife. How did you take care of yourself and everything? And I'm sure it's not perfect, but how were you able to really get yourself through some of those days when there was literally things piled up higher than you can see?

Jessica: Yeah. Well first of all, compartmentalizing is key, right? For me, working was a really good thing and I know that that's not the answer for everybody. And there were a lot of people who didn't think I should be working, but having something else that was part of my identity was really important. I knew how to do my job, so having something I knew because there was so much unknown on [00:28:00] the home front, that was important for me.

Also, my husband and I gave each other a night off during the week, and that was so huge. We got the idea from a family who has one healthy kid. I. You don't have to be in an intense situation to do this, but once they told us they did it, we were like, oh my God. You know? So Thursday nights I knew was my night.

Like after work I was gonna do whatever I wanted. I did, you know, and, and it might have been something so, you know, meeting a friend for a glass of wine, going to a movie or working on the book, whatever it was. But I had a night just to myself and might not seem like a lot. But it did to me because I knew that Thursday night was coming.

Right. So continuing to have that time for myself and continuing to have something that defined me, that was outside of my role as mother, nurse, psychologist, cheerleader, and all the many, many hats that we all wear as parents, and then all the more that we wear as medical parents. 

Jill: Now you're transitioning into a new phase, right?

Unfortunately, Dalia is gone. Your two other children are. Growing up, right? They're at that phase where you're [00:29:00] not as much mom. So what's that mean for you? Like, what's coming next? What are you excited about? Yeah. What did that feel like? 

Jessica: It 

Jill: feels 

Jessica: open. It's so different. I feel like I. There's a lot of exciting things happening.

It's been really gratifying to promote the book because I get to have so many interesting conversations. That's been fabulous. I'm doing some writing and book coaching now, so that's exciting. What I've learned is that so many people are like, I wanna write a book. I just dunno how, and I'm like, okay, great.

I can work with you on that. I also host my own PO podcast. I don't know how you do it. That takes up some, as you know. Some time and energy and marinating on a couple of other book concepts. So, so there's a lot going on. 

Jill: I'm one of those people that sometimes throw around the idea of like, it would be great to write a book.

And that whole thought is so overwhelming for me 

Jessica: if anybody who's listening wants, you know, here I am and it doesn't need to be [00:30:00] overwhelming. And I think that one of the things that I kind of. Proved is that you can have a pretty intense life and you can still do it. You can still write a book. In fact, most people who do write books have day jobs and other responsibilities.

I don't think many people have the luxury of being able to just be writing a book. 

Jill: Yeah, I think that's true. And you know, when I talk to people like you that had so much going on, still have so much going on, I'm also a different situation, but I always had a ton of things going on. I don't know how people fill their time sometimes when they're like, go to, 

Jessica: can I come?

My husband and I never had time to ourselves, just the two of us because for eight years my daughter was an eyes on patient myself, or my husband or a nurse, trained specifically in her care, had to be watching her 24 7 through the night. I mean, the whole thing. So my husband and I for all that time, never.

You know, we're just like on the couch together. Just the two of us are like, I mean, that just wasn't part of our life. And really we were so puzzled in the immediate months afterwards because we'd just be like, do people do? I mean, it was [00:31:00] so strange to us. But I also do think on another note that the busier people are, the more they get done.

I know that's true for me. You can get a huge amount done when you got a lot going on. When you don't have much going on, then it's harder sometimes to get things done counterintuitive, but that's at least the way it works for me. 

Jill: No, I think that's probably pretty accurate. I come from kitchens, like that's my background.

That's one of the things that I've always noticed when we start off the night and you're working the line and it. Slow. When that one ticket comes in, you're like, Ugh, I wanna do it. Ugh, this is terrible. And it's like a ticket. And then like later on in the night when the machine's running and running, yes, that's when you're like, yes, let's do this.

I just feel so much better when I'm constantly doing things and I try to find that balance of how much of that desire to constantly be doing something is. Just my way of like avoiding things I don't wanna think about and deal with. It's a balance. 

Jessica: That's true. That's a very good point. And I'm sure for me, busyness is a great way to avoid feeling all the things.

Jill: Yeah. And [00:32:00] I think if we give ourselves the space to feel it, then that's okay. There's nothing wrong with staying busy to avoid feeling it for part of your day. As long as then you give yourself that time later on to feel it, not drown it out with alcohol and drugs. So, which is what I have done in the past.

I have no judgment for people that do that. I do not do that anymore. I'm very glad that I do not do that anymore, but I find that it goes back to that we're so afraid to feel things to process things, and really we will live our life so much better if we can do it. And it is possible. We've all had trauma, we've all had bad things happen.

It doesn't mean you have to re-traumatize yourself living through it, but you could still feel some feelings and allow yourself to kind of. I don't know if HEAL's even the right word. Is there really even anything to heal? Right. Is there any hold to fill? I love to talk about it. This has been really wonderful.

I appreciate you coming on. I definitely wanna give you a couple minutes, you know, talk about the book where people can find it, social media, whatever. [00:33:00] Okay. 

Jessica: Oh my god. All right. I've got it all. So my hub is my website, which is jessica fine stories.com. My name is. Fine. FEIN, Jessica fine stories.com. I love having conversations and connecting with people and I'm on, so you can find me on Instagram or Facebook.

That's great. My book though, that's the best place to start. It happens to be on sale right now at Amazon, but you can get it wherever You love to get your books in whatever format you like, whether that's ebook or audiobook or print. Breathtaking. It's a memoir of Family Dreams and Broken Gene and yeah.

I got it all. I've got the TED talk, the substack. Just go to the website. You can find it all. 

Jill: Yeah, that's wonderful. I'll put the link in the show notes. People can easily click on it. I'll find your TED talk 'cause now I wanna watch the TED talk too. Thanks. I'll be sure to put links in so everybody can easily find you.

Thank you so much for coming online, for talking to me today and for doing this work that I am obviously really passionate about. It seems you are as well. It doesn't have to be scary, it [00:34:00] doesn't have to be overwhelming. But avoiding it is not the way to do it. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been so great 

Jessica: talking to you 

Jill: on my next episode of Seeing Death Clearly.

I sit down with Chris Mamo, an acceptance coach who helps people heal from grief, loss, and trauma so they can step into their personal power. Chris's journey was shaped by profound personal losses, first holding his grandfather in his final moments after a battle with cancer, and later experiencing the stillbirth of his son.

After 12 years of infertility struggles, Chris shares how grief is a lifelong companion. Not something you move on from, but to carry in a way that allows growth. He challenges the societal narrative around grief and emphasizes the power of acceptance. His perspective shaped by death has transformed his life, and now he guides others in integrating grief into their own journeys.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it [00:35:00] interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast. Platform and leaving a five star review, your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others.

The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free, whether your donation is large or small, every amount. Is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can.

You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one-time contribution. Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death. Clearly.