Exploring Memorial Forests with Gillian Nye

In this episode, we explore memorial forests with Gillian Nye. Gillian shares her six years of experience helping families create meaningful, conservation-focused memorials through Better Place Forests. 

Better Place Forests offers a natural alternative to traditional cemeteries, allowing families to choose a memorial tree where ashes are placed beneath the soil. The process is guided by ecological principles, mixing ashes with forest soil to support decomposition while preserving the health of the trees. Families can select their tree in person or virtually, with options for personalizing the memorial experience.

Gillian describes how these forests, ranging from 40 to 180 acres, are minimally developed to maintain their natural beauty. Trails, welcoming spaces, and simple amenities make them accessible while honoring the environment. Each tree is tagged for identification, ensuring families can return to visit and connect with their loved one’s memorial.

Memorial ceremonies vary widely, reflecting the unique wishes of each family. From singing songs and sharing poetry to incorporating personal items like Tibetan bells, these gatherings are deeply personal and often include meaningful rituals. Gillian highlights the beauty of adding dried flowers to the ashes and soil mixture, a touch that enhances the sensory experience of the ceremony.

She recounts touching stories, such as families recognizing their chosen tree from online photos or honoring loved ones by placing ashes together beneath a single tree. These moments, she explains, are a testament to the emotional connection people form with their memorial trees.

Better Place Forests also ensures long-term access to memorial trees by registering deeds with local counties. Families can authorize multiple ash placements under a single tree, accommodating future memorials. Gillian emphasizes the flexibility of the process, allowing families to hold back small amounts of ashes for other purposes or rituals.

This episode offers a heartfelt look at how Better Place Forests creates spaces for reflection, healing,

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Gillian: So it's one of those really personal things that might feel surprising to others, but it's all about what one person wants. With end of life considerations, we really can't say why somebody's choosing something. It's just nice to have options. 

[00:00:15] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach.

[00:00:21] Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

[00:00:40] In this episode, we sit down with Gillian Nye to explore the concept of memorial forests. For six years, Jillian has helped families create meaningful eco friendly memorials with better place forests, where ashes are mixed with soil beneath a chosen tree to nourish the surrounding ecosystem. Jillian shares how these protected lands, ranging from 40 to 180 acres, are carefully preserved with minimal development to maintain their natural beauty.

[00:01:09] Visitors can walk peaceful trails and gather in welcoming spaces designed for reflection. She also describes the deeply personal ceremonies families create and the powerful emotional connections people form with their chosen trees. Through Better Place Forests, end of life planning becomes a meaningful, nature centered experience of remembrance, healing, and connection.

[00:01:30] Welcome, Gillian, to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today. So I know we're going to talk about the company that you work for, but why don't you just start us off a little bit, tell me who you are, where you come from originally, anything like that, so we know who you are as a person. 

[00:01:47] Gillian: Thank you for having me and thank you for this opportunity for conversation.

[00:01:52] My name is Gillian Nye and I currently live on the southern Mendocino coast of California, but I'm originally from New Hampshire. I moved out to this area about 30 years ago. My background is actually in education and Western herbalism. I went to college to be a teacher and then studied herbology through my mid 30s and early 40s and co owned our local herbal apothecary.

[00:02:17] So I have a strong connection to community. I have a small homestead with my husband and raised two sons that both live in the area. I have a lot to be grateful for in this time of my life. 

[00:02:29] Jill: Wonderful. Yeah, my husband and I used to live in California. That's where we were at before we moved home from me to New Jersey.

[00:02:36] We were right in San Francisco. We got married in Berkeley, California. I love it. We still sometimes throw around the idea of retiring back in Northern California, but we'll see if we get there or not. Because honestly, actually, I love New Jersey. I Happy to be back home, but it is very different than California.

[00:02:54] Gillian: Right. It's a beautiful country and it's nice that there's places that we can all call home and that we can go back to. My family, like I mentioned, is on the East Coast as well. New Hampshire and Vermont are where my folks live. I love going back, especially in the summers where I can go swimming in the lakes and enjoy the different seasons that we don't have so much here on the coast where I live.

[00:03:16] Jill: Yeah, the seasons, as much as I don't like winter, I don't like cold, I love the seasons, and especially now in the work that I do with End of Life, that's one of the things that I feel like is a really good reminder to me. It's just all about cycles. You know, like right now in New Jersey, summer's coming to a close.

[00:03:37] We're getting ready to go into fall. All my gardening starting to die down, but you know what, that's how it goes. As things die, I kind of cut things back. I put them in my compost pile to regenerate some soil. And then I. Spread that out in the spring before everything comes up. It's just like life. And that's actually perfect to talk about the company that you work for, Better Place Forests.

[00:04:01] I'm curious because I know in New Jersey we have a couple of green burial sites. One of them is actually in a forest. We're in the Pine Barrens here in Jersey. Pine Barrens is huge in New Jersey. It takes up a large portion of New Jersey, which a lot of people don't know because they think like they see in movies that Jersey is like the turnpike in all the industry.

[00:04:21] But actually, a large part of South Jersey is the Pine Barrens, and there is at least one green burial site that's out there, but they're putting the full bodies in. But it sounds like your company, it's The cremated ashes, is that correct? 

[00:04:34] Gillian: It is. Better Place Forests is a series of established forests. We have nine forests throughout the country and I like to look at them as kind of a natural alternative to the traditional cemeteries.

[00:04:46] So we have these established forests where people actually choose a tree, which we call a memorial tree, to have their or their loved one's ashes placed beneath. We work only at this time with cremated remains. And we can accept traditionally fire cremated remains or aquamation. So we work with hydrolyzed remains as well.

[00:05:06] Jill: And then with the aquamation, I know there's the liquid that's left. And then there's also the bones that they will grind up like you do traditional ashes. Do you do the liquid as well? Or is it just that quote unquote ashes that are left 

[00:05:20] Gillian: over? It's just the ashes. So our process is to help people combine the actual matter of the ashes with soil that we have pulled up or harvested from different places of the forest that might have a excess of soil deposit.

[00:05:37] Maybe there was a trail built or A tree died and has kind of given back some nice soil. So we combine soil with the ashes to help them neutralize. And we'll place that ashes and soil mixture beneath the tree. 

[00:05:52] Jill: Yeah, because I know that was something one of the classes that I do locally is alternative burial options.

[00:05:59] I've been doing more and more research. And for a while, one of the things that people We're excited about where those tree pods, where you put the ashes inside the tree pod, and then you plant the whole thing. The more I started researching, people were like, it actually doesn't work so great because the pH level of the ashes is really not great.

[00:06:16] And then there was people that were like, and if you dig them up later on, you'll find the ashes just like a hard clump under what is supposed to be a tree. That's really not a great way to do it. I found a company that will take the ashes, mix them into soil, that then you could get that to put in your yard and plant on a tray and whatever else.

[00:06:35] So it sounds like you do something similar. Do you check the pH level when you do it? Or like, how do you, is it like super scientific? Or are you just kind of like me with my compost where I'm like, I'm going to mix some stuff in there and just. Put it out. It's 

[00:06:47] Gillian: a mix of both. In the beginning, we had a lot of guidance from biologists that we worked closely with when Better Place Forest was being created.

[00:06:56] And the guidance that we were given was four parts soil to one part ash. We mix at that ratio each time we place a set of ashes beneath the tree. The idea is that the living organisms in the soil will help the ashes. to neutralize and break down over time. We don't do any digging or disruption of the root system beneath the trees.

[00:07:20] If you can imagine walking through an established forest, you will come across your tree and your tree beneath it. We create what we call a little nest. It's pulling back maybe the top layer of soil or what we call duff beneath the tree, and then adding to it, building up. So there's a little crescent moon shaped space beneath the tree, and that's where we place the ashes and soil mixture, and then we'll kind of lightly cover it up so that it isn't totally exposed.

[00:07:49] And then over time, we have found that it takes a while up to 12 months to two years or so for the ashes to really start to break down and become indiscernible. That's why we mix them with the soil and that forest floor so that you don't, you're not walking through a space and seeing ashes everywhere.

[00:08:06] You're more seeing little spaces where that nest is relaxing back into the earth. And we have a marker that's placed there so that people can identify their tree and have a little bit of a tribute to their person on their individual memorial marker. 

[00:08:21] Jill: Do people get to pick the tree? Like, could I go out to the forest and be like, that's the tree that I want to be?

[00:08:27] Gillian: Absolutely. I think that is one of the most beautiful parts of this whole experience is people will come to the forest and choose in person, or we also have a beautiful online offering so you can actually see quite a bit of the forest virtually and be talked through your options online with an advisor or even self serve so you can actually do it without it.

[00:08:47] talking to anybody if you're more independent. 

[00:08:50] Jill: Oh, that's so cool. And how big are the forests? Like, do you purchase it? How does that part even work? 

[00:08:57] Gillian: Yeah, so Better Place Forests has purchased what we consider high conservation valued land. So land that May have been designated for timber harvest or development in some way, and our, our spaces, the forest that I'm closest to in Mendocino County, California is our smallest at 40 acres, and our largest is I believe 180, so we have quite substantial sized spaces to walk through and enjoy, and the forests then get kind of minimally developed.

[00:09:30] So with a trail system, a welcoming space, we have In some of our spaces, there's a port a potty, in some there was already an established home, so there's a bathroom system. And then, it's very simple, it's kind of like a state park model, so you might imagine walking through, but our trees have an arbor tag attached to them, which has the number of the tree, which ties back to our database, and that's how we track tree health, who the tree belongs to, how many sets of ashes have been placed beneath the tree, that kind of thing.

[00:10:02] You do choose your own tree and it becomes part of the family for people. People really resonate with their tree. I've seen so many really cool situations where somebody chose online and then they come to the forest and they see their tree and they recognize it from the photos that they saw online.

[00:10:20] They say, that's my tree. In fact, that happened yesterday. I hosted what we call a forest memorial when a family or friend group comes to the forest to place their loved one's ashes. And in this situation yesterday, the family had chosen with their mom online, but they hadn't been to the forest to visit the tree yet.

[00:10:38] So they were coming for the first time for their mom's memorial. As soon as we got there, the adult siblings said, there's mom's tree and they talked about what she liked about it. They identified it from their online experience, which I thought was really neat. 

[00:10:54] Jill: Oh, that's so sweet. I love that. And when you do your memorials, is it like a traditional memorial service where somebody stands up and talks?

[00:11:02] What do those usually look like? 

[00:11:04] Gillian: I've been with Better Place Forest for six years now and hosted hundreds of memorials. I can honestly say that each one is really different. Sometimes it's a more traditional format. What we offer is a simple nature based offerings. We have people on our team, our forest memorial specialists in each forest, or our general managers can assist with the guidance or facilitation of the memorial.

[00:11:31] People are welcome to bring an officiant of their choice or have somebody from their family or friend group guide or lead. There'll be parts where people are standing up and sharing often, or sometimes people choose to play music. And there's the opportunity to choose personalization, so it's very organic and personalized in that way.

[00:11:51] What always happens is, as a group, we prepare the ashes to be placed beneath the tree. That's the time when we add in the soil, and we actually offer a beautiful bowl of dried flowers that people can add in to the soil and ashes mixture too, which kind of adds a touch of beauty, and Smells good. So it brings in that kind of aromatherapy piece.

[00:12:11] And then we'll all make our way to the tree together. And then at the tree, there's where it unfolds differently for each group. Sometimes people choose to go straight with our format. Other times, like yesterday, one of the guests had some songs that she sang and they all shared poetry. I was not as much of a part of it as I sometimes might be because they were self facilitating.

[00:12:33] One of the things I loved about yesterday's Forest Memorial was that The woman who was the decedent had collected kind of like those little Tibetan ringing bells. And we all rang, they brought quite a few of them, we all rang the bells to begin and end the ceremony. So that's just a really nice example of the way that people can bring in something from their own life.

[00:12:55] All of it's welcome in the forest, I always say. The forest loves music, the forest loves dancing, the forest loves kids, being kids, and pets. So, people are really welcome to bring. What they'd like to honor their person. 

[00:13:07] Jill: Oh, that's so beautiful. And as a death doula, that's the kind of work that I want to do with people a little bit more is like, let's create what will be meaningful for you and your family for your end of life ceremony.

[00:13:20] Right? It doesn't have to be. I'm very, came from a very Catholic upbringing, very much like this is what you do at funerals. This is the order that you do that. I think it was very cookie cutter in some ways, which. In the last year or so after having a couple deaths, I actually found there was Some parts of that cookie cutter that I actually really liked knowing what was going to come next But also there's the other part of me that's like, yeah, I kind of like being able to I like the little Tibetan bells Like I think that's so sweet.

[00:13:50] I saw on your website. You do have a listing of partners that People can work with. Do you have people that would help with things like that? Because I could see how it's like a lot of things in life, right? We want to do these things, but if we've never done them, we don't even know where to start. So if a family came to you and said, Hey, I want to do a ceremony for mom.

[00:14:10] That's maybe not just what you offer. We want to do something a little more personal, but we don't even know where to start. Do you have people that help with that or a partner that maybe you could direct them to? 

[00:14:20] Gillian: Yes, each forest has a designated person or we have a team of people that will support the family or the memorial planner in creating what they want.

[00:14:31] They can choose our simple format or bring in somebody else. We have nine forests across the country. Each forest has different relationships with local people. So they might have somebody they could recommend a clergy member and musician or, you know, whatever they're kind of looking for, or sometimes people will bring their own person.

[00:14:50] They'll bring their pastor from their family church or their rabbi or their uncle who does a beautiful job in some way. So we can definitely help people figure out what they'd like and get connected and. One of the things you just mentioned is something I hear a lot because people don't know what they don't know.

[00:15:08] This is the first time they've done this, and because it's not the more traditional way, there's a lot of curiosity and a lot of questions in the beginning. So we actually have some really great information, as you can imagine. Steps of planning our, our outline of what you can expect, what we can help with.

[00:15:26] We have a beautiful selection of readings that we've compiled that people can use as inspiration or choose from, or they can always bring in something from their own life, but we have tried to. make it so that there's not so much guessing and confusion. And then there's always the opportunity to talk directly with their forest team or their team planner so that they can really feel supported.

[00:15:49] Jill: I love it so much. It's so beautiful. And I'm now I'm like, when are 

[00:15:52] Gillian: you going to come to New Jersey? We have a couple of forests on the east coast, one in the Berkshires area of Massachusetts Litchfield Hills, Connecticut, which are both really beautiful, magical forests. And 

[00:16:03] Jill: if I just wanted to visit one, is it like people can just show up, like you said, it's almost like a park kind of idea.

[00:16:10] Could we just show up and say, Hey, I want to go walk through these trails and see what it looks like. 

[00:16:15] Gillian: So you can make an appointment. We do let people make an appointment to let us know they'd like to come. That's for quite a few different reasons. It is a private forest space. And we like to offer our guests that level of privacy and protection.

[00:16:30] A lot of people like the idea that it's monitored and that we're not just allowing the public to wander through. People are welcome to visit and that's generally by appointment because we close the forest for a small period of time for each forest memorial so that the family has privacy during that.

[00:16:48] experience. Sometimes there's some overlap, but our teams do a great job of guiding guests to make sure that the Forest Memorial folks are having a private experience and the opportunity for that intimacy. 

[00:17:00] Jill: Oh, that's really beautiful. Cause I'm sure. Like a lot of things in life, you know, we want a little bit of that privacy to be vulnerable, to be able to feel comfortable that if I'm sobbing uncontrollably, somebody's not going to walk up taking pictures because to them it's, they're on a little vacation, they're on a trip.

[00:17:18] They're just checking it out. 

[00:17:20] Gillian: Yeah, it's really special. And you mentioned the funeral experience earlier. A lot of times people will have had a larger celebration of life and in the forest, we generally don't have groups larger than 20 to 30 people. So sometimes people will have had already a gathering either in with their community, friends and family, and then a smaller group will come to the forest.

[00:17:43] Not always, it's different every time, but generally we see groups of closer to 10 to 20 people coming for the actual placement of ashes. 

[00:17:51] Jill: Yeah, I guess that makes sense, because I feel like by the time that they're going to get to that part, it's not like it's happening right away. It's not like somebody dies, they get cremated, it happens within a few days.

[00:18:00] It's probably a little bit of a different process. And if, say, you know, actually I have two questions that I'll just kind of ask both of them at the same time. So say I buy the tree or do you buy them? Do you lease? Like, how does that work? 

[00:18:14] Gillian: You buy a tree. Yeah. You choose a memorial tree and there's a payment involved.

[00:18:19] And then that tree becomes your tree. You can authorize other people to purchase spreadings under it. You can purchase multiple spreading rights. for family and friends, potentially. And then we register with the local county so that you have a deed over time for access and permission to visit in case something were to happen to Better Place Forest.

[00:18:42] Jill: Oh, okay. So long term plan of that you still have access to it? Because that's the thing I was thinking of is like, say my husband and I, we got the tree and my husband dies and I spread his ashes, and then I die and my kids want to spread my ashes. Does there have to be a wait period between? Can the tree handle only a certain amount of ashes?

[00:19:02] Like, how's that work? 

[00:19:03] Gillian: That's a great question. So we have some volume considerations, but in that case, There would be no problem. We have some designations and there's a couple of forests that have more specific environmental regulations. Our Flagstaff, Arizona forest, for example, where we ask that you don't place more than three sets of ashes per year at your tree.

[00:19:26] So the, our team can help with that, but there's generally not a long wait period. You wouldn't have to wait, especially if it was spaced out. within a year or so. We regularly place multiple sets of ashes at a tree at one time. Oftentimes people will have been holding their loved one's ashes for a little while or their dad died but they wanted to have their ashes placed together with mom so they waited and they're doing mom and dad together, that kind of thing.

[00:19:52] Jill: And do most families Do the entire set of ashes or do you see where they'll take some of them and make like jewelry There's so many things you can make with ashes anymore even tattoos, right? You can get ashes in a tattoo now. Do most people do the whole thing or is it like we'll do some stuff and then The rest of it we'll put with the tree.

[00:20:12] Gillian: That ranges, but oftentimes we'll see people holding back a small amount of ashes to do something else with. Like you say, there's so many different options. And then there's a little bit of personal belief or religious belief that comes in. Sometimes people would like to have the entire amount of ashes placed at one time.

[00:20:30] That feels really important for their own reasons. Anything that they'd like is welcome. We don't have a requirement or any kind of guidelines around that. We just help people with what they'd like. For instance, we have small glass jars that we can give to people with some ashes in them if they'd like to take them home and they didn't bring anything.

[00:20:48] Jill: Do people ever take some of the ash soil mixture? Like, because I'm already thinking I have a garden. I love my garden. My garden is huge, huge for the amount of property that I have. I'm trying to kill off as much grass as possible to only have garden. So I'm already thinking I would maybe want to take a little bit.

[00:21:04] of the soil mixture with me to put in my own garden. Is that possible if somebody wanted that? 

[00:21:09] Gillian: People do that, especially if they're a gardener or their person was a gardener. That happens a lot because as you can imagine, people are choosing this option because they are a nature lover. Many times we have people saying, Oh, so they would have loved that soil because the soil is so rich and beautiful coming from the forest.

[00:21:28] And that is definitely a point of connection. 

[00:21:30] Jill: Yeah, that's was one of my first thoughts is like, I would want to take some home to put it in my plants so that could be part of that too. And if people wanted to decorate the tree or decorate the space in any way, is that possible? What are the rules regarding what can be placed there and what can't be?

[00:21:48] Gillian: That's a great question. People are welcome to bring things for the actual memorial visit. Oftentimes, people will bring photographs or special mementos, but we ask that they take them home with them. The forest, it remains in a very natural state, and the only thing that we have at the trees are a beautiful bronze memorial marker that can be placed at the base of their tree.

[00:22:09] Jill: Okay, because I know with a lot of the green burials, it's kind of the same thing. We want it to look natural, so little markers are okay, but that makes sense. That's part of, I think, again, somebody that wants to be buried. under a tree is probably not going to be the type of person that also wants to put a bunch of stuff on the tree.

[00:22:28] Gillian: Some people would like that, I think, but they also understand when we explain it. Most things that one might put at their gravesite or at their tree or at their green burial option will eventually just become trash. And so we want to eliminate. There's so much beauty in the forest already. All of our forests are a very lush environment.

[00:22:49] Some places have natural wildflowers. In the forest I work in, we have beautiful ferns and rhododendrons. So there's often something quite beautiful near the tree anyway that people can really appreciate. 

[00:23:02] Jill: And I'll put a link in the show notes so people can easily find it. But where are the forests?

[00:23:08] Because I ran through them, but I can't remember. How many do you have and where are they at? 

[00:23:12] Gillian: So, there's nine all together. We have four in California. We have the forest that I work in right now, which is in Mendocino County. That's our first forest that was opened, so it's our founding forest. And we have a forest in the hills of Santa Cruz, one in San Bernardino County by Lake Arrowhead in Southern California, and one outside of Yosemite in the Groveland Coulterville area of California.

[00:23:37] Then we have Flagstaff, Arizona, St. Croix Valley, Minnesota, Rockland, Illinois, and our East Coast forests, the Berkshires and Litchfield Hills. 

[00:23:48] Jill: Do most people that have their ashes in the forest, are they local? Do people travel from all around to go? Because I'm thinking The forest in Arizona is going to be very different than the ones in New England.

[00:24:00] There's differences, even the ones in California. If you haven't been to California, you don't realize how big it is and how different Southern California is to Northern California. So I'm picturing the different spaces because I know enough about California to be like, no, they're probably very different.

[00:24:17] And so I could see myself, if I like Arizona, even though I'm in New Jersey thinking, I want to go out to Arizona. I don't know how people usually do that. 

[00:24:25] Gillian: Just like you're imagining, I think. So sometimes people will choose a forest that's close to them. Oftentimes, people will choose a forest that was important to them or their loved one.

[00:24:35] We used to travel there as kids or, you know, we get a lot at the forest I worked in or work in. Mom loves redwoods or we always wanted to be by a redwood, by the ocean. So, People travel quite a bit and make it an annual visit or they'll say something like my mom loved Minnesota or she was from Minnesota and that's where we're going to put her ashes even though we live in Colorado because that's where she would have liked to be.

[00:25:01] So it's one of those really personal things that might feel surprising to others but it's all about what one person wants with end of life considerations. We really can't say why somebody's choosing something it's just nice to have options. 

[00:25:15] Jill: Yes, I agree. Options are really nice when it comes to what we want at end of life, because we're not all going to want the same thing.

[00:25:23] And do you have any plans to purchase more forests around the country, around the world? Like, what's the grand plans for the company? 

[00:25:32] Gillian: Well, I think that's still being thought through. Right now, our company is in a phase of really Working on what we have. We have a large base of people who've chosen trees and we're working on continually keeping our forests developed and working on our trail system.

[00:25:48] Some places still have work to be done in terms of building a visitor center or a welcome area. We are looking at other end of life offerings in terms of how can we better support people through designating their wishes or helping with an online memorial option for people who can't always visit the forest.

[00:26:08] So there's a lot of things that I think are being discussed right now that are really exciting, how we can Bring more support and connection to people in the end of life time, and then we'll see about more forests. I think people always want to know, is there a forest coming near me? I certainly hope that eventually we'll be expanding in that way.

[00:26:28] Jill: Yeah. And I actually like this idea when you mentioned online, because the one class that I talk about where it's like end of life options and alternatives to burial and I'm doing one coming up for a group that I work with that's innovations in end of life. And that's one of the things that more and more we're starting to see people wanting online memorials or digital legacy of what are we leaving behind digitally.

[00:26:54] And I'm thinking, okay, yeah, so what if I go bury mom in Minnesota, but I'm here in Jersey, but I still want to be able to see her tree maybe once in a while, like watch it change. That would be kind of neat to be able to visit your website and have a little memorial with mom's tree that gets updated once in a while with pictures of the tree, especially depending on where you're at.

[00:27:14] Like I know the Redwoods, they don't change much throughout the season. They're beautiful, but there's not a lot of seasonal change. The ones up in New England, There's going to be a lot of change throughout the season. It's one of the beautiful things about New England is the trees change so much. That would be kind of neat.

[00:27:30] I like that. There was one more question. I forgot what it was. It'll come back to me eventually. 

[00:27:35] Gillian: Yeah. And I think the technology piece, the sky's the limit. There's a lot of opportunity there. It's interesting because we have a very nature based product. We're actually nature. But not everybody can travel.

[00:27:49] There's a lot of considerations for people with their health and mobility. So we like the idea of bringing that to people's living room kind of. And people love connecting with the forest. We have Facebook groups and Instagrams. When you purchase a tree in a forest, you and your family members can all join the Facebook group and there's regular posts of.

[00:28:09] You know, the animals that are coming through the forest, the forest team will sometimes do a little video saying hello to everybody just to stay connected. We know that's such a big part of it all. We're so connected in life. And when we lose somebody, there's a real piece, I think, in how can we nurture those connections still.

[00:28:27] And there's so many things here for me. One of the things that you mentioned earlier that I kind of wanted to get back to is that idea of the cycles of life. And we see that all the time in the forest. So when people are having their memorial, one of the things that we can count on, but we never know exactly how it will be is that you have the backdrop of this beautiful living forest.

[00:28:49] So when we're placing the ashes or Somebody might be sharing a poem. Oftentimes, there'll be a bird flying by, or the wind will pick up, or the sun will break out, or a little bit of rain will start. And it's just those magical moments that help people feel like, Oh, my person would have loved this, or this is really meaningful in this way.

[00:29:11] And then you're also always seeing that there's decomposing branches and there's mushrooms growing and there's all kinds of things happening in between the literal birth and death of something and it just never really stops and I think that's the magic of what We're doing is that people can really be in it.

[00:29:32] And if we are able to bring that a little bit home to people, share it through visual images, that's one step closer to greatness for all of them in their home. 

[00:29:42] Jill: I love that you had Facebook groups for people because one of the things we talk about with death and grief is that community support can be really important.

[00:29:52] And there's so much loneliness that people feel when they're in a, especially a grieving space. Partially because we're so uncomfortable with grief that people feel so alone because, you know, their friends will change the way that they interact with them. Especially if it's like somebody that becomes a widow or a widower, then suddenly, especially if you're younger, you know, like you're, potentially your whole friend circle's gonna change and so it can feel really lonely.

[00:30:18] And the fact that you have a Facebook group and people that work there even make videos like it's really beautiful. It brings that sense of community for people to connect around something that they have in common. And I love that. I never would have thought of that. I didn't realize that that was an option.

[00:30:35] That's 

[00:30:35] Gillian: great. Yeah. And with that grief piece, we see a lot of people, especially those that live. semi locally visiting the forest a lot, especially recently after somebody's ashes have been scattered at their tree. And one of the wonderful parts of this work for me is the connection with the people. I have hundreds of new friends that I've made in this work and they come to visit their tree.

[00:31:01] Oftentimes it's a widow and they're coming to visit their Life Partners tree regularly. People visit everybody actually. They can walk through the forest, sit at a bench by their tree, bring a picnic or a friend. I think that connection to something living when you've lost somebody is really meaningful.

[00:31:19] Jill: Yeah, that's true because. I think that's part of the draw of putting your person's ashes, not just having them sit on a shelf or turning them into a piece of jewelry, is that when you put them with the tree, it becomes something living again. Part of them lives on through this living tree or. Even, you know, you mentioned like the mushrooms and the bugs and like everything in that ecosystem is really going to start to take on some of your person.

[00:31:46] And it's so beautiful. I love that so much. Ah, this is amazing. I remembered my question too. This actually kind of takes us backwards. I know I read on the website a little bit about how the company was founded, but how did this get started? You said where you work is the first one, but how did it come about?

[00:32:03] Gillian: So it was a very personal mission for our original founder, Sandy Gibson. His parents died when he was young and they were both buried in a cemetery in the middle of a city. He had so many memories of spending time outdoors with them as a child that when he would visit them in the cemetery, He just felt that it wasn't the best fit.

[00:32:24] He always felt kind of like a miss in some way. So he had this idea of having people choose a tree instead of a tombstone. And that was kind of one of his thoughts was trees, not tombstones. He did a lot of research and with two of his childhood best friends started Better Place Forests. Those three men are all in more of an advisory role now, but it were a very large.

[00:32:47] part of the company for many, many years and really started what we're carrying on now. And it's this idea of a living legacy for people that really can honor their person in a way that feels more meaningful or resonant with them and the memories they're leaving behind. And what year did it start? We begin in 2017.

[00:33:08] I believe our property in Mendocino County was purchased in 2017, 2016. And then we started offering people to come and visit and choose their trees in late 2017, early 2018. 

[00:33:20] Jill: So it's still fairly new. This is fairly new. Yeah, this is not a long time from 2017. No, 

[00:33:25] Gillian: it's been, um, kind of fast and exciting and When we first started this project, this, when we first started offering trees, there was a huge reaction.

[00:33:37] People were so excited about this. So we grew pretty quickly because there was such demand. You know, there was just this desire to be a part of it, especially at our first forest. People chose. trees quickly because it felt really exciting to them and something they wanted to be a part of. Um, and now we've got our nine forests.

[00:33:58] We're just building on those because we want to make sure that it's something that people can visit forever, that they feel good about their choices, that there's developed trails, there's, you know, restrooms, that kind of thing. 

[00:34:10] Jill: Sometimes I know companies. Get really excited with growth and then it kind of backfires.

[00:34:17] So yeah, sometimes I think focusing more on what you already had, building that up is a good idea. And do you think that green burial will ever be an option in any of them or your company's not even going that direction at all? 

[00:34:29] Gillian: We're really open to what lies ahead. One of the things that's exciting about the end of life, community right now is that there are a lot of things being talked about, a lot of things happening.

[00:34:42] There's so many ways to take care of a body after it has died. I don't think there's any hard no's, but certainly we need to maintain the health of the forest. As a priority. I'm not sure how that would look in terms of actual green burial, but we are excited about terramation, the human composting concept that I think will fit well with our forests when we're able to honor that.

[00:35:06] We'll see what happens as we grow and as the end of life industry changes. We talked about choice and options. Briefly, I think that's one of the most exciting things right now. There are a lot of options for people. It's not just here's the one thing you can do with your body if you don't want to be buried in the ground.

[00:35:24] There are a lot of interesting things out there. There's being put in the coral reef, mushroom suits, you know, there's, there's all kinds of things for, for us now, which is really exciting. 

[00:35:36] Jill: Yeah, just a lot of people don't know that because again, we grew up one way, but this is what we do. And I know at least in New Jersey, we're starting to run out of cemetery space.

[00:35:47] This is something that I thought was really interesting when I read it one day, where they were like, where else do you get to buy a piece of land and it's yours for all of eternity, right? There's people that are buried hundreds of years, they're in that spot, and we don't do anything else with it.

[00:36:03] Eventually, we're going to have to figure something out. Of course, there's talks of, do we now bury people on top of old grain? How do we feel about that? I don't think a lot of people would be too happy about that. We're going to need new options, because eventually, we are going to run out of space, and New Jersey is already starting to, we're a very densely populated state.

[00:36:24] And even though I mentioned, you know, we actually have a huge section of forest, we don't want to keep turning forest into. Other things, right? We don't want to keep cutting these trees down to put in more housing and more cemeteries, right? So we're going to need some new options and there are a lot more options out there We just don't know about them and as of right now in new jersey, unfortunately, we don't have aquamation and we don't have Terramation, which is the human composting hopefully That will come soon, one or both options.

[00:36:55] If you're somebody like me that cares a lot about the environment, the more I learned about flame based cremation, it's actually really not great for the environment. And that's unfortunate, but it's It's the reality and so I'm hoping that's kind of again one of the things my husband and I talk about like long term plans I'm like, why don't we get into human composting?

[00:37:15] I think that would be kind of cool. We'll see where life takes us for now We're not quite there yet, 

[00:37:20] Gillian: but for the gardeners in us for sure it's really important that we figure out a better way to deal with our bodies in terms of Space and environmental impact. There's a lot being done towards that right now that we can get excited about.

[00:37:35] Watching the way that aquamation is becoming legalized throughout the country. I think that's really great. 

[00:37:42] Jill: Yeah, I think so too, because that is a better process for the environment at least. But then I was talking with some friends at Thanksgiving because What else do I talk about? And we're really close to the Delaware River where we're at in New Jersey.

[00:37:57] Like I could throw a stone practically and hit the river. And that was one of her thoughts was like, well, I don't want to end up in the Delaware. What do they do with the liquid? And I was like, I don't know. It's not something that I had really thought about before, because I guess they don't typically just.

[00:38:12] dump it down into the sewer, but I don't 

[00:38:14] Gillian: know. I'm not an expert, but I know that they are exploring different ways to clean and refresh the water so that it can then be used for something. Maybe it's watering gardens or whatever it may be. There's a lot of work being done there as well. 

[00:38:34] Jill: Yeah, because it seems like it should be able to just be returned to the land in some way.

[00:38:39] Gillian: Exactly. 

[00:38:40] Jill: You know, we're getting there slowly but surely. Just like everything, you know, with humans, we just, we gotta figure things out as they go. And we're coming up on the end of our time, so I will put in the show notes a link to your website. Is there any other things that you want to mention about social medias or anything that you want to share?

[00:38:59] Gillian: Well, folks can follow us on Instagram or Facebook under Better Place Forests. I just want to encourage all your listeners if anybody has any questions or this kind of sparked anything in anybody to feel free to reach out. There's no obligation to purchase a tree or invest in any of our services. Just take a look at our website and let us know how we can help.

[00:39:21] Behind it all is this really strong mission and desire to help people navigate this difficult time. I think We're all in this together, and I encourage folks to reach out if they have any questions. 

[00:39:32] Jill: Beautiful. Well, thank you. And I will put the links in so people can easily just click on the links and find you.

[00:39:39] I appreciate it, Jillian, because I know it is early for you. Hoovering California. Thank you so much for coming on today. 

[00:39:45] Gillian: Thank you, Jill. Thank you for having me. I look forward to keeping this conversation going and hearing more about how things go in New Jersey. 

[00:39:52] Jill: In my next episode, I'm joined by Daniel and Patrick Lazor, the creators of Nightside Songs, and Tebi Magar, the director of its Philadelphia production.

[00:40:03] Together, they share insights into this immersive theatrical experience and its unique approach to storytelling and music. More than a musical, it's a communal ritual where audiences actively participate through singing, engaging in a shared exploration of caregiving, illness, End of life experiences, grief and mortality all while fostering connection and healing.

[00:40:26] It creates a rare space that transforms discussions of loss into a shared uplifting experience. Join us next time as we explore its profound message and the role of theater in embracing life's Most inevitable moments. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

[00:40:44] Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

[00:41:01] Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes. To subscribe to the paid monthly subscription as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution.

[00:41:21] Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of seeing death clearly.