End of 2024 Reflections and Our Personal Journey with my husband Stephen Wilson

This episode celebrates a significant milestone: two years of our podcast! Stephen and I reflect on the journey, exploring our growth, challenges, and the remarkable connections we’ve made along the way. A highlight of our conversation is our annual tradition of reviewing the past year, made even more special this time by recording in the same room, creating an intimate and dynamic exchange.

I share my deep gratitude for the inspiring guests who’ve brought their expertise and personal stories to the show. We reminisce about our decades-long friendship. Our shared history—college, running a bakery, and raising children—has shaped our exploration of aging, letting go, and embracing new phases in life.

We discuss the importance of community and stepping outside comfort zones. I reflect on how accepting mortality has helped me cherish life’s simple moments and live more authentically. Together, we explore the challenges of "cruise control" living and the courage it takes to grow beyond habits that no longer serve, emphasizing the rewards of meaningful connection and self-discovery.

I open up about my experience as a death doula, sharing how my work extends beyond sitting with those at the end of life. I candidly discuss the logistical and emotional demands of my role, balancing professional responsibilities with family life, and finding creative outlets—like designing death-positive apparel—to sustain my mission. 

Throughout the episode, I reflect on how contemplating mortality has shaped my decision-making and deepened my appreciation for life. We delve into navigating life’s transitions and the importance of aligning care decisions with personal values. I share my journey as a podcaster and entrepreneur, recounting my growth over the past five years, from overcoming self-doubt to launching a successful podcast and death-positive apparel line.

https://www.endoflifeclarity.com/store

I have a collection of death-positive shirts featuring inspiring quotes and original designs, all created by me. These shirts are perfect for anyone who values open, honest conversations about death, dying, and grief.

 https://www.endoflifeclarity.com/store 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jill: It's been a fun journey all these years with you and as a death doula and now podcaster and all these other things that I just had to learn, I feel really proud of myself. Welcome back to seeing death clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach here on my show. I have conversations with guests.

[00:00:22] that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. I'm a week late with this episode because I got sick and I just couldn't get it done last week.

[00:00:44] If there's one thing I've learned in my years as a death doula is that some things are more important than the must do's that we convince ourselves we can't skip. But in this episode, I get to celebrate two years of the podcast, talking with my husband, Stephen. and reflecting on this journey, sharing our growth, the challenges that we faced, and the amazing connections I've made along the way.

[00:01:08] It's an intimate conversation where we revisit inspiring moments, exploring themes like aging, letting go, and embracing new phases in life. And we talk about the courage it takes to break free from old habits. I also open up about my work as a death doula. Balancing life's demands and finding creative outlets like designing my death positive apparel.

[00:01:29] Also, a reminder that I will be taking a holiday break and will return with a new episode on January 12th with a very special guest, TikTok star Hospice Nurse Penny. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. So, We're back. Two years to the day that I announced I was going to start a podcast. Came up in my little memory thing that two years ago I was like, Hey y'all, I'm going to do it.

[00:01:55] I've been wanting to do it for a long time and now it's here. So you were my first guest. 

[00:02:01] Stephen: Your first guest. 

[00:02:02] Jill: Yep. And then the end of The first year I also did this with you again, like wrapped up the year. So that would be fun to do a year in review again with you, but we're trying this a little different with both of us in the same room.

[00:02:17] I almost feel like I'm talking to the screen, but I'm also talking to you. 

[00:02:21] Stephen: I'm talking to the screen. 

[00:02:22] Jill: Hey, well, whatever works. I can't believe that two years have gone by already. The time does fly. I know we talk about that as people age, how time goes by and. The last two years, I have learned a lot about podcasting.

[00:02:38] I've learned a lot from my guests. I've had some really awesome guests on. I think that was my biggest. not surprised necessarily, but I definitely didn't anticipate the amount of people that would not only want to talk to me, but would reach out to me and say, Hey, can I be a guest on your podcast? Which has been super cool.

[00:02:56] Cause I've gotten to talk to like really awesome people. And you listen to the podcast regularly? Actually, I don't even know. I've never asked. Uh, I don't listen to all 

[00:03:04] Stephen: the episodes. 

[00:03:05] Jill: But you listen to a couple of them. Yeah. Is there any that you've really, enjoyed for any reason, like any guests that have stood out or anything like that.

[00:03:16] Stephen: I think I enjoy more than the podcast hearing you talk about the guests afterwards, like offline, which has been fun. It wasn't Barbara Karman's beginning of the season. Yeah. You're like still talking about that. I knew you really enjoyed our conversation. I thought it was a really good conversation, but I fangirled the same way you did.

[00:03:34] Jill: Yeah, I for real fangirled. I get really excited the fact, again, that Barbara Carnes wanted to talk to me. 

[00:03:40] Stephen: And still wants to apparently. 

[00:03:42] Jill: Yeah, and we're trying to get her back on again for the next year, uh, which is awesome because I have enjoyed literally every single one of my guests for a variety of reasons.

[00:03:53] But there is something special about really admiring somebody and having their books and following them online and being able to talk to them. You know, there's part of me that just really does feel honored and makes me feel good that people want to talk to me about things. Their experiences is a professional like Barbara Karnes or just people that want to share their story with me because they've had loss.

[00:04:20] I mean, we've all had loss, right? Like every one of us has experienced death or if nothing else. We've experienced grief from the loss of friendships or relationships or jobs, even just aging, you know, like there's definitely things now we're, we're getting older, we realized, let's see, we've known each other since I was what, 21, you were 18.

[00:04:42] I'm 46 now and you're 43. So we've known each other longer than we haven't known each other. There's definitely something. Interesting to that getting older and aging together, going through different phases. We've been through so much together, college, living in California. Having a bakery, you know, having children.

[00:05:01] Now our children are growing up. They'll be 14 and 11 in a couple of days. That's interesting. 

[00:05:08] Stephen: Brad Burke was only a couple of years out from being the same age I was when we met. He looks so much like you. So 

[00:05:14] Jill: it's so weird to look at him and be like, Oh my gosh, it's a mini Steven. And that's a lot of what you look like when I met you.

[00:05:22] So yeah, it is interesting. He's taller than me now. He's not a baby. Letting go of those phases in life. There's definitely some grief that comes with it, but then there's also exciting things. Like we started taking dance lessons now that the children are getting a little bit older and we have. more flexibility with our time.

[00:05:42] Like it's all right to leave them home alone for a little bit if we have to. For us with dance lessons, it's something that we can bring back into our lives because we have had so much that we've worked on together that probably like a typical couple wouldn't have, you know, like we went to college together, we worked together while we were in college.

[00:06:04] You know, we built a business together. So we worked together 24 hours a day for many years. We played roller derby together, like I was on the team. Memento Mori, like my shirt says. So we've just done so many things together. Moving into this next phase of life, there is a little sadness and grief in letting go of the children a little bit more, but.

[00:06:28] It's also exciting. I'm looking forward to getting older and finding new things that we enjoy doing together. Cause that's the thing, you know, we talked about maybe going back to roller derby and then it's like, maybe not, you know, like we're getting a little old for a high contact sport. Dancing is something we can do together.

[00:06:46] So we're learning and we're having fun and it's potentially something we could do long term. 

[00:06:51] Stephen: We just saw on Sunday morning, this morning, that building community helps you age more gracefully and live longer. And sing was one of their suggestions. 

[00:07:00] Jill: I think. For me at least, community is not, I don't know, I feel like you're very good at going out and meeting people and talking to people and you're just more extroverted and comfortable with it and for me it's not as easy to kind of find.

[00:07:17] community. But, you know, I think that sometimes two I were a good match because we are a little bit different, a good balance to each other, bringing more community in. And, you know, and that's one thing that I know I've talked about a little bit, probably on the podcast, but as well on my social media is that the more that I've, I've really accepted death and dying that this life will come to an end.

[00:07:40] The more comfortable I've gotten in situations that used to make me uncomfortable, the more I've been able to appreciate them. I just remember sitting at a softball game one day and you know, our daughter's playing a lot of softball now. So we've been going to a lot of games in the past, being around that many people.

[00:07:59] It would have made me uncomfortable, and I really just experienced it so different. It's like I almost have these moments where I get outside of the moment and I think, what if I was on my deathbed? These are the moments that I'm really going to think back on. The times with the cheering and watching the game.

[00:08:22] My mom was there, you're there, and both of us are helping out now with the team. 

[00:08:26] Stephen: I think it's easy to go on Cruise Control. Not. Participate in those things and not put yourself out there because it's easier. And then I feel like 20 years goes by and you're like, what did I do? And like put myself out there.

[00:08:37] I didn't take risks. Just cruise controlled. 

[00:08:40] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:08:41] Stephen: Staying home. 

[00:08:42] Jill: Yeah. And I think most of us live life on cruise control. And I feel that there's a variety of reasons. Some of it is that. There was a time in my life when it was like, it's honestly just safer for me if I stay home by myself, you know, like I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I'm going to get hurt by people.

[00:09:02] That was the best solution I could come up with. As long as I stay home, nobody can hurt me. Even if it wasn't a conscious decision, there was definitely some of that. I don't want to have my life feel that there's regret that I didn't show up more, and that I wasn't more engaged with the world around me, for good or bad.

[00:09:24] This year, especially with the election, No matter what side of politics you're on in the United States, this last election year was exhausting and it produced so much anxiety and fear. It was overwhelming at times. I wasn't as affected by it as I would have been in the past. I don't know exactly why, but I really do feel that A change in the way that I live my life.

[00:09:53] I don't really drink at all anymore. I stopped a lot of my self medicating techniques. There's no shame in it. If people do drink or smoke weed or shop, whatever people use, but it's a really nice place to be when you don't feel that you need those things anymore. I used to feel if I went out in public, if I went to a party.

[00:10:14] I needed something. I needed to have a drink, maybe smoke or take a gummy or to be around people. I just don't feel that way anymore. And it feels nice. I actually feel the most at peace I think ever in my life. Maybe since I was a child, maybe when I was a kid, I had that feeling, but you've been a huge supporter of me and for a long time now, 20 years, you've always been there to cheer me on and encourage me.

[00:10:42] I know this business has been, uh, I didn't take a huge income loss because I wasn't making a ton of money before, but it still was an income loss for me to say, I want to dive into this. But like we've said many times, we're ahead of the curve and a lot of things like Stephen and I, when we opened our bakery, we were ahead of our time.

[00:11:02] I do think that. my death doula work. Not only am I ahead of the time in that, it's something that when I got into it four years ago, it was just starting to get talked about. Now you hear about it fairly regularly. I think my mom even said she was watching a TV show or a movie. Oh, no, one of the goofy TV shows.

[00:11:23] But the guy was in a relationship with somebody and he had to end the relationship because she was a death doula and all she wanted to talk about was death. I think I've always enjoyed pushing people out of their comfort zone a little bit, which is probably partially why I've always felt like a little bit of a weirdo.

[00:11:40] I've always wanted to push people to think differently and to go into areas of life that are a little bit more uncomfortable. And I know that some of the work that I do, you know, now is having conversations with people, getting them to think about things. That makes them a little bit uncomfortable, but we need it.

[00:12:02] Even when my Aunt Karen died in March, which there was an episode that I did. Actually, I think it's two episodes that I did around that time. But again, Steven was amazing where he was in Chicago and I was like, no, I'm fine. You don't have to fly home. And he flew home anyway, so that I didn't have to be alone.

[00:12:19] But even then, when I was in the hospital with her, And I was talking to the doctors and my Uncle Bob on the phone because he couldn't be there. Even he was like, I don't understand what they're saying to me. Like, what are they trying to say? I'm like, they're saying that she's dying. That's what they're trying to tell you.

[00:12:33] But they couldn't just say it. We need to get more comfortable. with talking about it and saying it and thinking about it. So I've enjoyed pushing people a little bit. You know, that's why I started creating shirts and partially I started creating shirts. Cause it's also, there's a death duel that was on my podcast a couple of months ago, but all over her social media, then I'll put a link in the show notes to that episode with her.

[00:12:59] But Narendra talks a lot on her social media, just about how this work is not, Sustainable if we just want to sit with people that are dying. 

[00:13:10] Stephen: It's not an established career at this point. 

[00:13:12] Jill: Not only is it not an established career, I'm realizing it myself where there's only so many people that you could work with at one time.

[00:13:23] I do a college doula. When Kate and I, we were giving our talk and we talked about what it's like to be like a birth doula a death doula, the beginning and the end of life and how similar there's a lot of things that we do that are the same, just with different ends of the spectrum. And I was like, but the one thing that's really different is when a birth doula takes on a client, you know that it's going to end.

[00:13:49] You have maybe a four week window. It might be a little earlier. It might be a little later. But like, you know when it's gonna end. And I don't have that with my clients. I have a client that was supposed to die a year ago, and now he's not. And my friend that I'm supporting in Philly, that's already been a big job to take on.

[00:14:12] I say job as in I'm supporting him through my, the Buddhist community that we're part of and setting up his care team and emailing and doing all the stuff. I'm just trying to be as transparent as possible about the realities of end of life in our country and that if he doesn't have anybody he had to get together a group of people because hospice is not going to be there 24 hours a day and when he needs 24 hour a day care because it's not safe for him to be alone we had to get together a group of people.

[00:14:41] Even he thought he was going to be dead three weeks ago, and he's not, and I'm glad that he's not. I'm not saying that I hope that he dies anytime soon, but it's also like, you can't take on too many clients at once, even if I had the clients that wanted to be hired, because I don't think I'd have the emotional energy.

[00:15:00] I wouldn't have the time to do all the things that I need to do to visit with people. I'm realizing, That you can't build a business just on individual clients, supporting them at the end of life. And so what does that mean? That's where teaching classes with the library, designing the t shirts, because it really is fun.

[00:15:21] When we used to decorate cakes at the bakery, Stephen, like he's an excellent pastry chef and he's an excellent chef, but he's really good at business. So he ran the business side and I did a lot of the kitchen work and decorating, decorating cakes and designing the shirts has been. in some ways very similar.

[00:15:38] Trying to bring in the income stream while also wanting to do the work for free, you know, volunteering at the hospitals. And I love it. You know, I love being in a hospital setting, which I didn't expect. Free labor takes time. And, you know, still having youngish kids, again, they're, you know, Getting easier to be able to say, you know, like, Oh, I have to go run to a meeting.

[00:16:00] But again, if I had a client where I needed to go sit with them overnight, and if Steven was traveling, that would make it harder, but we're making it work. We'll figure it out as we go. Cause we always 

[00:16:12] Stephen: do 

[00:16:13] Jill: exactly. That's what I'm going to say. Yeah. Because we always do. And I think it's helpful that both of us have always had the same mentality of.

[00:16:23] It's not about making a lot of money. It's not about doing something grand and huge. It's more about making an impact on a smaller scale. That was our bakery where we opened it in my hometown and we wanted to help change the downtown. And we did, I mean, I really feel very proud of the work that we did there.

[00:16:44] And. The work that we're, I say, we're, because he definitely helps me. It's not just me, the work that I'm doing now, if nothing else, I couldn't do that work if he wasn't supporting me. Going out into my community, teaching classes at the local libraries, volunteering at the hospital. All the stuff that I do, I couldn't do it without Stephen.

[00:17:05] Stephen: It's like I couldn't serve on the school board. I didn't have you making sure that the kids are eating dinner and going to bed. 

[00:17:12] Jill: Ooh. 

[00:17:12] Stephen: It's a lot of additional labor. 

[00:17:14] Jill: But it's so important. This is where the changes really happen. Stephen saw things happening at the school board meetings years ago, and he was like, mm, not okay with that.

[00:17:24] He ran for school board, and now he's able to make sure that Books aren't being banned, things that he was like, I'm not okay with this happening in my community. And that is one thing I probably would notice these things anyway, but there is a little fear that I have about something happening because in the last two years, we've had three men in our community die, various things, some natural like heart attacks.

[00:17:54] One got into a fight and ended up dying, but they were like our age and they had kids our age and they're in our community. I guess because of the work that I do, I don't think that I fear it more, but I'm more aware of the potential consequences that if something happened to Steven, you know, how that would affect my life and how that would change my life.

[00:18:17] And, you know, I think we're pretty prepared. You know, there's probably still some things that sometimes, um, Not as prepared as I even tell my clients they should be but for the most part I think we have everything in order that we need to have in order and it still would be Really difficult and I know that I can't control that.

[00:18:37] I know that I can't make sure that Nothing happens because that's part of life. I mean one of us is gonna die first. I don't like it. Most likely. That's true We also don't know There could be an accident, God forbid, knock on wood, my superstition, exactly. There could be an accident. We could both die at the same time.

[00:18:59] There's nothing we could do about that other than I am for sure more conscious and aware, like when we drove an hour and a half this past week to visit family for Thanksgiving, because this is the beginning of December now. I made sure I was the designated driver. We set it up so that Steven would ride.

[00:19:15] And yeah, down and I would drive home. I mainly don't drink now anyway, but you know, going out to a nice dinner, it's one of the times when I might have a drink. I might have a glass of wine or a gin and tonic or an old fashioned because I enjoy having them sometimes, but knowing that we were all in the car together.

[00:19:34] For an hour and a half on the highway and it was going to be dark. I was like, it is literally not worth it. It's not worth the risk. And so, you know, I don't do it. But then again, when the guys that I interviewed on my podcast, he got into a drunk driving accident. And it was like having those uncomfortable conversations with somebody that was like, yeah, it was stupid.

[00:19:54] I got in the car and I drove and I almost killed myself. Having that conversation with him was uncomfortable. And part of why it's uncomfortable is because it forced me to like, look at some of the places where in my own life I've made bad decisions and was still making bad decisions. I'm not perfect.

[00:20:13] I'm not saying that I am, but. I do feel that becoming a death doula and thinking about death so much and talking so much about it has made me a better person and helped me live the life that I want to live which doesn't have anything to do with stuff. Hopefully I'll make enough money to make it sustainable long term.

[00:20:39] You know, if anything happens to Steven, I Would have to make some big changes, but that's okay. If that's the reality that I have, I will face it, but I still don't want it. And I think that's okay too. So for you, I don't know, what's your year been like as far as endings and beginnings and anything stand out for you?

[00:21:01] Stephen: Endings and beginnings this past year, not particularly. I mean, Anne Karen dying was, I mean, it wasn't surprising, but you know, she was close. To the family and your mom losing so much weight, lost a tremendous amount of weight. I think she started her weight loss journey before Karen died, but after Karen got injured.

[00:21:19] So maybe she saw some of her own mortality in Karen and was like, I need to take better care of myself. And she has lost a tremendous amount of weight. I'm proud of her. For sure. It's not been easy, but she's been disciplined. Honestly, we'll probably have her for a couple of years more. So she seems to be in much better health.

[00:21:36] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:21:37] Stephen: And she feels better too. She feels better emotionally and physically. 

[00:21:40] Jill: Which is amazing. And, Even the other day, cause she did go through like a breast cancer thing, right? When was 

[00:21:47] Stephen: that, 

[00:21:47] Jill: this 

[00:21:47] Stephen: year? 

[00:21:48] Jill: No, that's been over two years now. 

[00:21:50] Stephen: The kids just found out about the Pyramus, spilled the means on it. I didn't know they didn't know cause it'd been a while.

[00:21:56] They were like, why are you taking hormones? And I was like, oh, she had breast cancer. And Paula was like, what? Don't tell them that. I'm like, why not? I guess I didn't realize that they were ever privy to that. 

[00:22:04] Jill: Well, I think at the time we did what a lot of people do, which is keep the diagnosis. to ourselves.

[00:22:12] My mom and I knew, we told Steven, but even outside of that, she didn't tell friends and family. 

[00:22:20] Stephen: Did I just spill the beans even more? 

[00:22:21] Jill: I, I think at this point, maybe you spilled the beans a little bit more, but I think at this point, most people had known, but until she really knew what was going on and what was going to happen, she just didn't want to talk about it.

[00:22:34] And she didn't want the kids to get scared and upset because that is the thing, you know? And again, like with breast cancer, I know at least two women my age this year that have gotten breast cancer and have had to go through pretty intense treatments. My mom, since she was older, it wasn't as intense. It was just like surgery and taking some different medications.

[00:22:58] It's actually anti hormone medication she takes to stop the hormones. It was just one of those things where we didn't tell the kids and time just kind of went on. We were sitting around the dinner 

[00:23:07] Stephen: until I told them. 

[00:23:08] Jill: But at least now we could be like, no, Grammy's okay. Everything seems to be okay. But there is definitely that thing where we're getting to that age where more people our age are starting to have things happening.

[00:23:21] Modern medicine is amazing because it does extend. Our lives and it does give us more treatment options, but that's the conversation that I also try to have with people is what's most important to us. That was the conversation that my mom and I had with her doctor. She could have done radiation and she could have done chemo and.

[00:23:46] The one doctor was actually real kind of like, not nice to us when we were like, she's not going to do chemo. And she was like, well, then we can't guarantee that it's not going to come back in 10 years. And we were like, okay, sure. Exactly. And I was like, so she'll be like, 88 then. If it comes back in 10 years, we'll deal with it.

[00:24:05] But we know what chemo does to people. And her other doctor, the surgeon, was like, I fully support it. We'll do the surgery, we'll take out as much as we need to. But at her age, Chemo and radiation just doesn't make sense. We had to have that conversation. It's hard because we've avoided thinking about it.

[00:24:26] We've avoided having that conversation. When you have to have it, it can be difficult. But we're all gonna potentially face these hard conversations. and hard decisions. We're human bodies. What we were talking about it yesterday, like the human body breaking down with age is fascinating, but it kind of needs to happen.

[00:24:48] If we didn't break down, if I still had the same body that I had when I was 20, even if I had that all the way until I was 90, It doesn't make sense. We would just live and live and live. And I don't want that. Part of it is just things with time starting to not work as well. It's okay, but it is interesting to observe, especially when society gets us all this, I don't know, stories, especially as a woman that, you know, my hair is graying, which I personally love the gray hairs, but I certainly don't look like I did when I was 20.

[00:25:23] And. my value goes down according to society. 

[00:25:26] Stephen: You want Jane Fonda hair? 

[00:25:28] Jill: Oh my gosh, her hair looked amazing today. Jane Fonda on Sunday morning. She was talking about aging and how just even approaching aging in a way of more positive, not thinking that aging and, and as you get older, everything's going to fall apart.

[00:25:44] And it's terrible that if you approach it with a more positive attitude, you actually will live longer. But man, her hair looked amazing. It was just beautiful gray and like these waves. I look like Jane Fonda But of course i'm sure you know, she's probably had a little bit of plastic surgery, even if it's not a lot Maybe she's had if nothing else like botox and again, I have no judgment But I am certainly not financially in a position where that's going to be anything that is important to me.

[00:26:14] There's just other things in life that are more important to me than spending the money on that. She's fabulously wealthy. Exactly. 

[00:26:22] Stephen: She wants to make that decision. It's a much easier call. 

[00:26:25] Jill: For sure. Where for us, I'd rather take dancing lessons than get Botox, personally. But, you know, that's me. That's my choice.

[00:26:33] And I have to say that it does help having a partner that you've never valued me based off of how I look, which I always appreciated even when we were younger. Yes. Yes. Well, there's a difference, I think, in appreciating how somebody looks and valuing them for their looks, because my looks will change as I get older, and they have already.

[00:26:58] Yeah, but you're still beautiful. Well, thanks, honey. 

[00:27:00] Stephen: You'll always be 

[00:27:01] Jill: beautiful. You will always think that I'm beautiful, even if I can't afford Botox. You will care, and I appreciate that. So, I think, um, I do have that privilege, I have the stereotypical beauty standards of America. I'm slender, I'm white, I have blondish hair, I have blue eyes.

[00:27:22] I know that's something, but the value people put on it is not always a good thing. That also means you get 

[00:27:29] Stephen: unwanted attention. 

[00:27:31] Jill: Some seriously unwanted attention, which goes back to why I used to hide in the house so much. It's just safer for me to be in here being my weird self all by myself with my people.

[00:27:43] But yeah, so I don't know. It's just, it's been a, it's been a interesting. Four years, right? Since COVID and the beginning of my death roller business, I look back on what I thought it was going to be. 

[00:27:55] Stephen: It's like five years since COVID 19 started happening. 

[00:27:59] Jill: Oh, you're right. That's right about when I was like, I want to be a death roller before COVID really happened for us.

[00:28:05] It was fall of 2019 when I was like, I think this is what I want to do. I'm going to do this thing. And I was scared because I was quote unquote old and I was. Gonna try to go back to school while already having two jobs and two kids and two partners and a very, very full life. And yet here I am five years later with a podcast, a line of t shirts, giving talks at libraries, working for a law office, and giving CE classes to social workers, just doing things that I never, ever would have dreamed.

[00:28:37] I just never, thought that this would be my life. It's way better than I ever thought it was going to be when I was younger. I honestly don't know if I even thought I was going to make it this far. Like 46, I was like, I'll probably be dead by 46. So, and I'm not. Here I am. Thanks for today. Might be dead tomorrow, but for right now, you never know, but for right now, and that's where, you know, my 20 something years with you, I hope that it's many more, because let's see, if we live to be 90, that would be like 70 years 

[00:29:13] Stephen: that 

[00:29:13] Jill: we will spend together.

[00:29:15] 70 years! 

[00:29:16] Stephen: Long time. 

[00:29:17] Jill: That is a long time, and I hope that we make it that far. That would be amazing if we could live to be 90 and spend 70 years together. Hopefully by then my business will be making enough money that I could support you and you don't have to support me. In my 

[00:29:32] Stephen: retirement. 

[00:29:33] Jill: Exactly. I'll support you in your retirement.

[00:29:35] So we'll see. That's the goal. It's been a fun journey all these years with you and a fun journey as a death doula and now podcaster and all these other things that I just had to learn. I feel really proud of myself for learning. the tech that's involved with podcasting and the tech that's involved in designing the t shirts and putting them on a website and having a website and sending a newsletter and like all these things that I just didn't think I was smart enough to know how to do.

[00:30:11] But man, when I'm determined to do something, I figure it out. A big part of that is because of your support along the way that you've always supported me and made me. understand that I'm not stupid. I might not learn like everybody else does, but I'm for sure not stupid. So I appreciate you. Well, thank you.

[00:30:33] Appreciate you too. I know. We're partners. We are partners. We've come a long way in our years together and we do some good work together. Including raising really pretty cool children. 

[00:30:44] Stephen: I thought we'd have a thing that happens here. I don't know if you want to talk about it or if you have talked about it then, Maid.

[00:30:48] Jill: Oh yeah, I actually haven't talked about it. That's an interesting one. 

[00:30:52] Stephen: Big step this year. 

[00:30:53] Jill: That was a big step this year. I was contacted. By a friend of mine up in North Jersey, that is a palliative care social worker, um, who has also been on the podcast and said that she had a family that was going to use medical aid in dying and needed a support person.

[00:31:12] It is legal in New Jersey. And the doctor that does it closer to us. She does the whole thing. So she doesn't just prescribe the medication, like, she does support the family. So my chances of, like, ever working with anybody closer to me are probably slim, but I was very I don't even know the word.

[00:31:33] Excited's not the word. I was honored. I was Looking forward to a new experience. And I knew that I still had a lot to learn. So I reached out to my mentor in California because I knew that she had supported people. Unfortunately, Jill was very sick. So she connected me with another woman that she works with.

[00:31:56] I got on the phone with Julia and I just talked to her because, you know, Steven, one of his things was like. Are you sure that you can't get in trouble? 

[00:32:05] Stephen: I just wanted to be 100 percent sure there's no liability here. 

[00:32:09] Jill: Yeah, and that's understandable. It is something that I can understand why some people have apprehension around medical aid in dying.

[00:32:22] Also, I think it's really important for people to have the choice to end their suffering, because that is really what it is. It's ending their suffering, not ending their life as in, you know, dying by suicide. It was a really life changing experience for me. It's so beautiful. And intimate, and it really is an honor to be in the space with somebody who is dying, especially in this case, to be there with the family and to be able to make that decision when it was time.

[00:33:03] But there is something interesting in asking somebody if they understand that taking this medication will make them go to sleep and then they will die, and having them have to say, yes, I understand. That was an interesting experience, but it was important because they found out they had cancer and it was going to go quickly because it was throughout their entire body and it was just getting harder and harder to live and the suffering was getting greater and they were able to make that decision.

[00:33:37] when it was time. But that was an interesting experience to have that conversation with Stephen. And he's like, are you sure? Like, sure, sure, you're not going to go to jail. I'm like, pretty sure, but I'll look into it more. So I've researched more about the law in New Jersey and read more about it and the way that it was worded.

[00:33:55] And I knew that I could mix the medication, I could hand them the medication, I could even hold the glass, but they had to be able to ingest it themselves, whether through a straw or just by drinking from the cup. And so I felt really good. I felt prepared. I had checklists and that's one thing. I'm, I'm very organized with a lot of stuff.

[00:34:19] I had a checklist and all kinds of things ready so that I made sure that I didn't miss anything, that I didn't forget anything and that it was a smooth experience for the family. And it was a long day. I mean, it was an hour and a half for me to get up there. And I was there for basically the entire day.

[00:34:41] And then afterwards, checked in with my mentor when she was feeling better. And you know, that was, helpful too because there was things that she pointed out that I hadn't thought about. I mostly actually felt really good. I listened to really calm music on the ride home. I centered myself. I definitely was very tired and very hungry.

[00:35:05] Afterwards, which I thought was weird, but I was like, it's probably because I didn't really eat that much. One of the things Joel pointed out was that when you have that adrenaline spike and then come down out of it, that is one of the things that can happen is you can actually get very hungry and you could have all these things that you feel like You're not being affected by the situation, but you are.

[00:35:27] And I was like, Oh, I didn't actually think about that. Cause man, I was so hungry. I got home. I swear I ate like all night long. I just eat a lot that night. I hadn't really thought about the fact that those two things could be connected. 

[00:35:39] Stephen: Yeah. And the family texted afterwards, they didn't text you. They texted, they 

[00:35:44] Jill: texted Allie.

[00:35:44] Stephen: Yeah. Just to share how grateful they were that you were there. 

[00:35:47] Jill: Yeah. It was beautiful. I really was happy to be able to be there and it was, it was interesting because as we waited after taking the medication, it doesn't happen instantly. It happened over a few hours. I was able to talk to the family and learn about them and all kinds of stories.

[00:36:05] It was nice to be there and share in that space and to make sure the family knew everything that was happening was okay. Okay, they weren't suffering the breathing changes, all these things like they're not suffering. It's okay. This is part of the process. And that was the thing too. I did a class right before that for our local library about the science of death, which I was so surprised how many people there was like 35 people that showed up for that class.

[00:36:33] It was all about what the body does as it shuts down, the breathing changes, the color changes, the temperature changes, and Okay. All that stuff, I was like, are people really interested in this? But that class filled up. And so it was nice because I think when I do the classes, I get to really relearn information myself and teaching information definitely makes it sink into your brain a little different.

[00:36:57] So it was good. I think it was a good year. This year actually was the first year that my business paid for itself. So, again, not making money, you're not paying for my business this year, so that was a big step tip. That makes me feel better. It'll be nice when. I can contribute to household bills, but at least now your income is not paying for my business.

[00:37:23] So I think that was good stuff this year. Agreed. I don't know if anybody's listening, buy one of my shirts. Tell your friends about it. Tell all your friends about it. Because it does, it helps support me and It really will help keep me doing this work because if I have to go get a job, I'm not going to be able to have a podcast.

[00:37:42] I'm not going to be able to design shirts. I'm not going to be able to do library classes. And that's okay if that's the path I have to go down. You know, when we closed the bakery, that was sad. I was talking about some grief. That was a grieving process when we had to close the bakery. But it was okay. It was time.

[00:37:57] It was the right decision. All these things can be true. If that's the fate of my business here, then it is what it is. Hopefully, I could be around long term. That's the goal. 

[00:38:07] Stephen: I'm proud of you. I love you. I 

[00:38:09] Jill: know. I love you, too. 

[00:38:10] Stephen: You're good at what you do, whatever you do. 

[00:38:12] Jill: Well, thank you. I always appreciate your support.

[00:38:15] I love you. Couldn't do life without you or I could if I had to, but I don't want to, so let's try to stay around as long as we can. In my next episode coming out on January 12th, 2025, I talked to Penny Smith, known as Hospice Nurse Penny on TikTok, and we discussed her 20 plus years of experience as a nationally certified hospice nurse.

[00:38:39] And her mission to normalize conversations about death. Penny shares her personal journey with death anxiety. Which once kept her awake at night and how working in hospice transformed her perspective. She highlights the importance of expressing end of life wishes, honest family conversations, and the empowerment that comes from understanding death, dying, and hospice care.

[00:39:01] Penny shares with us stories from her book, which come from her career in hospice care. care, including helping patients navigate critical decisions and dispelling myths about death and hospice. Penny also reflects on her rise as a social media advocate, the challenges of being famous online, and her upcoming book, which will be releasing on January 14th, 2025.

[00:39:24] which encourages readers to embrace life by confronting death with clarity and dignity. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review.

[00:39:42] Your positive podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show Supporting me in any way you can.

[00:40:02] You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo. If you prefer to make a one time contribution, thank you. And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of seeing death clearly.