Rebuilding Intimacy After Babyloss with Kate Carson

In this episode, Kate Carson, a love, sex, and relationship coach, shares her transformative journey from scientist to a supportive guide for couples navigating grief and intimacy. After losing her baby at eight months pregnant, she faced the impact of profound loss on her relationships and sexuality, and she soon recognized a gap in resources for others experiencing similar struggles. Kate joined a peer support group and quickly noticed the lack of guidance addressing how grief affects intimacy. Inspired, she trained in tantra, eventually shaping a coaching practice that addresses the nuanced intersection of grief, love, and intimacy for clients worldwide.

Kate reflects on society's often "sterilized" approach to death and how it limits meaningful grief rituals, leaving people disconnected from their emotions. Likewise, she explains, sexual energy—vital to human experience—is often stigmatized, creating barriers to intimacy, especially after trauma. Kate observes that unresolved trauma can lead to prolonged gaps in physical connection between partners, but she emphasizes that rebuilding intimacy is a potent form of healing. Her work reveals how open communication and vulnerability can help couples separate their pain from one another, finding new closeness as they reconnect emotionally and physically.

Kate also dives into how trauma, particularly after loss, can be stored in the body and sometimes surfaces during moments of physical intimacy. She describes this release, which can sometimes involve grief or tears during orgasm, as a cathartic response that allows people to process unspoken sorrow. Through her perspective, listeners gain insight into the profound link between physical and emotional well-being, challenging them to see sexuality as a life-affirming force even amid life's hardest moments.

Further, Kate explores the concept of "sexual healing" as a means of restoration, particularly when intimacy triggers unexpected emotional responses. She explains that supportive affirmations, like “I love you,” can foster a safe space for vulnerability and healing. Sh

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Kate: Sex is how we procreate, how we make more life. Death is all the way into the shadow and sex is almost all the way into the light, but culturally it's been put in the shadow. 

[00:00:11] Jill: Welcome back to seeing death clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself.

[00:00:24] My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode, Kate Carson, a love, sex, and relationship coach. shares her deeply personal journey.

[00:00:44] After experiencing the devastating loss of her baby at eight months pregnant, Kate recognized a lack of resources addressing how grief impacts sexuality and relationships. Inspired by her own healing process, she trained in Tantra and created a coaching practice that helps clients worldwide reconnect emotionally and physically after the loss of a baby.

[00:01:06] She shares with us the transformative power of intimacy as a life affirming force, even amid grief. and gives some practical ways to honor boundaries and rebuild the connection. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Kate. Thank you so much for coming on today. Can you start us off?

[00:01:24] Just tell us a little bit about who you are, where you come from, anything like that that you want to share with us. 

[00:01:29] Kate: Sure. So I am a love, sex, and relationship coach. And I came to this work because I am also a bereaved mother. I lost a baby at about eight months pregnant. And what I noticed as I navigated that grief and that loss, and as I started holding space in a peer support group, was that there was definitely not enough support for the impact of this Particular kind of loss on sexuality and relationships.

[00:01:58] At the time I was a scientist and engineer and a teacher. Eventually during pandemic, I decided to make the support work my main work. And I went to online school and I studied with Layla Martin in her vital and integrated tantric approach so that I could meet this need in the grief space that was not being met.

[00:02:17] I live with my husband and my two daughters in Massachusetts, and I work mostly over zoom. So I worked. Globally, and also out of my home if you happen to be in the neighborhood. It's so great to be here. Thank you 

[00:02:28] Jill: Layla martin I follow on social media and I love her content That's really awesome that that's who you studied with because i've kind of wondered It's not a direction that I feel the need to go to do that training But every time she talks about it i'm like, oh man, I don't know that sounds really awesome So that's cool that you did it.

[00:02:48] How did you like it? 

[00:02:49] Kate: It is an epic training Just epic. I think her tools are amazing. I think she's brilliant. I love the way she draws from modern trauma science as well as tantra. Both the ancient types of tantric practices and also the neotantric practices, which are more sexuality focused. I think it's such an interesting mix of different sources and combines a lot of wisdom, but it's a lot of work.

[00:03:14] And I spent, I think officially it's a 600 hour training, but I spent about 20 hours a week on it for two years. including the specializations that are optional at the end that I did. It was wonderful. My own marriage benefited from me doing this. My own sexuality benefited from me doing this. My own empowerment, like the way I moved through the world benefited.

[00:03:33] And it really is fun to be able to bring those tools to my clients. I've done other training since then, and I definitely draw from many teachers, but I would say Layla is like my primary teacher at this point in time. 

[00:03:44] Jill: That's awesome. And I like that. You're saying that it's not just you and your relationship that benefited from it.

[00:03:52] The way that we move through the world is definitely change when we can, I don't know if it's like embracing our sexuality, because I don't think that's really even exactly it. But like some of that healing work that especially I feel like female bodied people in our culture, we tend to, unfortunately.

[00:04:11] all have some type of trauma that is related to sexuality. And that's a grander problem that I don't know what to do anything about. And you have daughters, I have a daughter. I worry about it without trying to worry about it too much. So yes, I have found, you know, I haven't done any like official training in Tantra, but you know, I follow people online.

[00:04:33] I read a lot. I've tried to practice some of these things and it's really brought it. healing to me. 

[00:04:39] Kate: Yes. And 

[00:04:39] Jill: it definitely changes the way that I show up in the world, the way that I interact with people, the way that I move through the world. And it's unfortunate because I feel like part of why I was so interested to talk to you about Tantra, as well as about the infant loss and all the things is that I feel like in our culture, there's a lot of, you know, We have so much stigma still around talking about sexuality and about talking about death.

[00:05:03] This connection between the way that we deal with both of them, I find fascinating and I just want to figure out more about it because if we can talk about it. I feel like all of these areas would get healthier. 

[00:05:17] Kate: Yes. It's so interesting. The fear of death makes sense to me on a very visceral level. We're all mortal.

[00:05:23] We're all going to die. It's huge unknown. I know plenty of people who think they know, but ultimately we don't know what happens after that point. It's a huge step into the abyss that no one can avoid. There's a natural fear of it, which I think is very normal and part of the innate fear Animal nature of us.

[00:05:39] And then on top of that, there's been a real sterilization of society around death since the rise and improvement of modern medicine, I would say, because we see so much less infant death, we see so much less death, I would call it out of order death. Right. We sort of expect to live to old age and die then.

[00:05:59] And as everybody knows who has ever lost the loved one at a time that was unexpected, that isn't always the case because it's been sort of sterilized out of society. It can be very lonesome. There is really no remaining grief ritual almost at all. I mean, you might have a wake, you might sit Shiva, you might have a funeral, but that is really limited compared to what there used to be for us in death.

[00:06:21] On the other side. you have sex, and it's almost like the opposite. I love the take that sexual energy is life force energy. As a former scientist, I know that not everyone resonates with energy, so just think of like, turn on. How alive and vivacious do you feel when you're turned on? Like, so alive and vivacious, right?

[00:06:39] So this idea that just like, the juice of life, you know, it's just like, Turns you on sexually and also begets more life. Sex is how we procreate, how we make more life. And so it's so interesting because it's like death is all the way into the shadow and sex is almost all the way into the light. Again, culturally, it's been put in the shadow.

[00:06:58] Why? Probably as a way of controlling people. And unfortunately, in modern times, controlling women a lot. And by modern times, I mean, like a few thousand years, it does seem to be leveraged. I'm not saying that men have it so easy because they don't, but as you were saying about women and sexual trauma, even in the absence of a violent sexual event in your life, I mean I'm lucky enough that I have avoided violence at me sexually, we still internalize this sense of it's not safe to be sexual.

[00:07:30] It's not safe or okay to show that we're sexual, to express that sexuality, except in very private places, and unfortunately, it's hard to turn off. So, once you're in the private place, you think, oh, this should be okay, but then, like, the body's still hanging on to it, right? So, this very life oriented force in ourselves, ends up getting pushed into the shadow, like, take it down.

[00:07:55] Like, it's dangerous. It's going to beget some harm, distract someone, put you in harm's way. And we lock it down. We lock it down. And we end up at war with one of the most generative, interesting, creative parts. And that's a shame. That's a crying shame. 

[00:08:12] Jill: No, it really is a shame. And one of the things too that, you know, as you were talking about how when we're just taught, even from a young age, that our sexuality is potentially going to bring harm to our bodies, right?

[00:08:25] Like keep things covered up. Be careful walking by yourself at night. We're taught all of these things. And I realized when I was doing my death doula training, I went into it being like, this will transform me. And it literally did get transformed so much of me and the way that I think about life and the way that I maneuver through life, it even transformed my sexuality.

[00:08:43] Like it transformed so much of me. But one of the things that I realized was I was holding a lot of grief over that loss of innocence that happens when you're, um, a young woman and all of a sudden you're put out into the world and you are getting attention, where again, even if nothing ever happened violently, you're still getting the attention.

[00:09:04] You still have the catcalls. You still have people being like, be careful with men. They only want one thing from you. And if you give them that one thing, you're a slut and that's a bad thing. And I had all this grief that I realized I was holding inside of me. over that loss of innocence, that loss of safety, that loss of feeling like I could exist in the world, and then I got to that age where all of a sudden it wasn't okay, and it wasn't safe, and there's grief that's tied with that, but we don't talk about that in our culture.

[00:09:36] We don't talk about all the grief that comes from different stages in life, and it's okay. That we have the grief. But if we don't honor that grief, then that's when I feel like we internalize it. And then it becomes that there's something wrong with us. And you're right that then you can't turn it off.

[00:09:51] It's not like you could be like, well, now I'm safe with a person that really loves me. And I trust them. I'm going to be fine. Like it just doesn't work that way. Our body still is going to react in a way of, I don't know, this is dangerous. Me being in this situation, I'm vulnerable. I can get hurt. And it's great that our bodies, our brains, our souls, whatever it is, kind of learns to protect ourselves from situations, but then at the same time, when we don't want that to happen, it's not easy to turn it off and just be like, everything's fine.

[00:10:25] I don't need that right now. And I'll turn it back on when I'm walking down the street by myself. But now I'm safe and I don't need 

[00:10:31] Kate: it. We just can't do it. And I do want to expand this to include men as well as casualties of this system. Yep. I have so much grief for just the, the possibilities, like thinking of how a young child feels today.

[00:10:46] So safe and at home and expressed in her body and then get shut down. I have so much grief for that on my own side. There's a beautiful article about masculine nurturance, about how a man holding you has a specific quality, which is unique and strong and powerful and safe, like when a safe man is holding you, how incredible that is.

[00:11:07] I do have great men in my life who I can get that from, but to go out onto the street and just brace against men, we miss out. on so much. We don't get to celebrate that across the board. And I grieve for that too. I grieve for all the missed opportunities to be in relationship with safe and wonderful men.

[00:11:26] I see them also dancing this dance with us where we're like, no, we got to shut it down. We got to keep ourselves safe. A lot of armor, a lot of closeness. And with them, Wanting to be stand up men as well, not wanting to overstep and sometimes not being fully honest, not being fully expressed, feeling stifling.

[00:11:45] It's a real lose lose for everybody when sexuality becomes a weapon in a culture. 

[00:11:51] Jill: Yes, and that's so true. I had said to my husband years ago when we first started dating, I realized that We were friends first, so he knew me just as me. And then when we started dating, he was like, Something's different.

[00:12:05] You're acting differently. Something changed. I remember saying to Omonce, I'm so sorry that you have to pay for the damage that was done to me by other men before you ever were around. And because he's a wonderful guy, there's still parts of me that are healing things that happened to me in the past. It still comes up.

[00:12:26] There's still times when I'm reacting in a way that even I'm kind of like, I don't know why this is going on. Something's coming up. Unfortunately, And you're right that the men in the world that aren't doing these things are still paying for the consequences of these things happening to their wives and their mothers and their daughters and you know, we're all paying for it, unfortunately.

[00:12:50] Kate: We really are. And it really sucks. On, on the positive side, this can be integrated on, on personal level, right? Like you can learn to ex, to start to separate your trauma from your husband. You can learn to be able to tell him what's going on so he knows, so it doesn't come out as an attack, right? And he can learn some of the cues your body needs to start to relax and to remember, oh, that happened before and I'm here now.

[00:13:19] Right? He can also learn how to express himself so that you don't collapse all the way into, it's all about me all the time, right? Like, these are things that can happen and growth that can happen. So in the baby loss world, because the trauma happens in the pelvis, there's a lot of trauma stored in the pelvis.

[00:13:36] So sex can become sort of a minefield. After that, some couples go straight into trying to conceive again, and so they sort of override that and plow through it, which only entrenches it more. It makes it more to unravel later. Some people go the opposite route, total avoidance. I was lucky that I actually did take comfort in intimate touch and sexual touch and erotic touch after my loss.

[00:14:02] And I will say that it's probably because one of my husbands and my weaknesses as a couple is verbal communication. That's what I really have had to work on over the years. Most couples do either only go back in from a procreative standpoint, which is not nourishing or very, or they go the other way and just avoid, avoid, avoid.

[00:14:20] And the body feels so tightly wound that if you're touched, it's like no touch at all. It can be very scary to come back from that. Often I get couples coming to me who haven't had sex for years after the loss. Some of the preconceptions. are so interesting that I hear, and there are preconceptions on both sides, there are assumptions made which are not fair on both sides.

[00:14:41] One of the most interesting things is that as these couples come in, these are couples who have loving, respectful, solid relationships. Like the friendship and the respect in the relationship is very strong. It's just that this piece is missing. And there's still this ingrained sense often, if I'm going to be heteronormative, an ingrained sense in the woman that he just wants sex.

[00:15:01] Meanwhile, if you actually slow down and listen to him, and when I can get her to the point where she can slow down and listen, what he's saying is no, no, no. Sex matters because it fuels us and it makes us closer to each other, and it also gives us untold pleasure. of the kind that you really, it's hard to get any other way.

[00:15:18] And I'm making a stand for pleasure in our relationship and I'm inviting you to come with me because I care about you experiencing this too. And it might feel so far away or impossible or uninteresting to you because you're so shut down, but I'm going to hold this vision for us that is so different than he's just a horndog.

[00:15:36] You know what I mean? It's so different. different and getting us to the point where where we can hear each other in a big vision like that is so beautiful. It really is. And I honestly have yet to meet a couple with a bedroom that's been so frozen for that long, where if you ask the one who's like hands off, if you say well, would you rather That he changed, if you wave a magic wand, would you change your husband to never want sex again?

[00:16:03] Or would you change yourself to have a sex drive and interest in sex again? 100 percent of the time, the people who come to me say, oh, I definitely want to want sex again. Well, that's beautiful. When that's the case too, and when he can hear that, it's like, oh. Okay, maybe we can find a shared vision and come back to this together.

[00:16:22] It's very special to be able to develop your sexuality just by yourself, and I think that's important. There's this place for that even when you're doing couples work. But it's also very special and next level healing to be able to do it with someone else. And when 

[00:16:37] Jill: you're working with couples, because you know how you mentioned that the trauma of losing a child, even if it wasn't while the child was still in your womb, right, I had two children and like, there's still part of me that's like, you came out of me like that just is so intimate.

[00:16:58] It's like you grow this little person and now, you know, my children are 10 to 13. So like, they're certainly nowhere near babies, but there's still just a part of me that's like, no, but like, I've never been more intimate with anybody than I've been with the two of you, because you were in me. I can imagine the grief.

[00:17:17] tied with losing a child, especially when they were inside of you at the time. And then to try to engage in sex, it seems like the grief would be so triggered while having sex. Yes, that would be really difficult. Even if my body was like, no, this is cool. I'm ready. It seems like All that energy and emotion that comes with sex would trigger that grief so hard for me that would be like you would be forced to really be in two different places really like working with this grief that's going on while also trying to be present in the moment.

[00:17:53] Yes. How do you work with people around that? What can people 

[00:17:58] Kate: do if they're in that space? So, I just first want to make sure everyone knows about what a crygasm is. Okay. Oh! Yeah, let's hear all about that. How to work with someone in the space, it becomes really important to give some education. Some sexuality education that far exceeds what the best there was to offer at school ever was.

[00:18:18] Pleasure based. sexual education and emotionally based sexual education. None of us got that when we were growing up. Something that exists, a phenomenon that exists is that sometimes when you have an orgasm, it's like the flood breaks loose and you cry. And sometimes that is paired to an actual understanding of what you're crying over.

[00:18:38] Like the grief is very clear and very present and you're crying about the grief. And sometimes it's completely thoughtless. and memoryless. It is just your body heaves and sobs as the orgasm comes through you. And both of those make so much sense. If you're getting a flashback or a memory or your grief comes up, that makes so much sense as literal triggers in the body, in the vagina, on the cervix, right?

[00:19:03] And also, In order to attain an orgasm, we really can't just be in our mind all the time. Like we have to drop into the body and turn off the voices that have been protecting us from feeling our feelings. And then just, it comes through the body as like an expression, right? Many times when couples do return to having sex, finally, for pleasure, after losing a baby at any age or stage, or after an infertility journey that was unresolved, whenever that happens, or even when that was resolved, it still can leave it, or an NICU stay, any of this, often, there's a big crygasm.

[00:19:40] And I get a lot of women coming to me embarrassed that they finally got up the guts and like the turn on to have sex and then they just sobbed and felt bad for how it might have made their husband feel. Education for him, education for her, education for them, it's okay and it's an enormous opportunity for emotional healing.

[00:20:00] Sexual healing is a real thing because we bypass a lot of the protective parts that won't let us access. the deeper parts. When you're in sex, you're in your body and able to go directly into the deeper parts. So if this is what comes out, the most effective way to work with that is for the holding partner who is not crying to just be like, I love you.

[00:20:22] I love your tears. This is so good. Almost cheering you on. Yes. Express like, do you want to scream? Scream. I'm here. I've got you. Even just experiencing that one time in your whole life. can be one of those major shifts where hard things just find their place like a puzzle piece in you and it's integrated.

[00:20:39] I can't promise that it's always like that, but it is a huge opportunity for huge leaps forward in integration in a very short amount of time. It should be celebrated when these things happen. So that's one thing, just education around what might happen. How to support. Also, really important, you know, to give space to have the pelvic remiss.

[00:20:59] I never want to hurry anyone back to particularly penetrative sex. I don't want to hurry anyone's body. If what's needed is no penetration for various reasons, there might be injury. There might be hormonal implications, particularly if you're still producing milk. There might be vaginal atrophy. There are all these problems.

[00:21:18] There might be pelvic floor tension, all these things. We don't want to push past the body's no. What we do want to do is understand where the no is and work with the body to say, okay, what is a yes? If sex, like anything in my vagina is a no. What could I say yes to? What kind of touch could I say yes to?

[00:21:38] Touch in particular, because it's a special kind of intimacy. If you can't say yes to any kind of touch, okay, what verbal intimacy? What could I receive in terms of compliments? In terms of statements of love? If not that, what could I receive in terms of pleasure, like a favorite perfume? Like a soft blanket?

[00:21:59] Find the yeses so that your whole life doesn't just come into no, no, no, no, no, no, no, right? And that also gives your partner the opportunity to, to feel invited into intimacy in some way or another, feel invited into helping and supporting. And also, be a collaborator in finding ways to be close that are new and different.

[00:22:20] And it keeps the relationship sort of fresh, actually. A lot of times by the time, particularly heterosexual couples are in a procreative stage, we get very uncreative and default. So penis and vagina is sex and nothing else is sex. And all our gay friends are like, you guys are so uncreative. Eroticism can happen anywhere in the body.

[00:22:39] Eroticism can happen energetically between two people. It can be flirtation. To keep that open. allows you to be a sexual being, even while protecting your body's no. And the more that no gets protected and honored, and the more that eroticism is safe and pleasurable, the more yeses open up in the body.

[00:22:59] One of the 

[00:22:59] Jill: things that I was thinking about, at least with my understanding of Tantra, is there's a lot of ritual that goes with tantra, even with grieving with death, right? We used to have a lot of ritual that went with when somebody was dying, when people were in grief, you know, we lost so much of the ritual.

[00:23:20] And like you were saying, you know, especially in heterosexual, if you've been with your partner for a really long time, especially once you have the kids, it just becomes this like, all right, we got to do the thing. What time is it? All right, I guess let's Let's go do it and get it done. Like, it becomes almost like a chore that you put on your list.

[00:23:36] And we lost so much of the rituals and the connection that comes with both sex and with grief. And so, you know, is there things that you do with people to bring more ritual in around sex as well as with their grieving processes? Yes, there 

[00:23:56] Kate: are. I'll talk about a particular practice that I love and adore.

[00:24:00] There's one for the male body and one for the female body. I usually start with the one for the male body. Because of this whole, like, I'm afraid to have sex from the, the female pelvis perspective, something that is beautiful, connecting, empowering, but also limited inbounds that will, that will not cross that line.

[00:24:21] I also want to separate a classical tantra from neotantra. This is a neotantric exercise, more sexuality focused, and I learned it from Layla, I'm sure there are others who teach it. It's called, Genital massage, right? Tantric genital massage. What's so beautiful about this, you set the stage, you make sure your room is nice, you have some nice lighting, you might want music.

[00:24:43] you have to make sure it smells good. So there's no clutter. There's no like, of the day. So you can just enter and feel like your whole body relaxes. And then the receiving partner lies down. The giving partner and the receiving partner will need to meet at the genitals, right? So the giving partner's hands and the receiving partner's genitals.

[00:25:00] I also work with a lot of elders. As well. So around issues of menopause, mobility can be an issue. Sometimes receiving partner can come up to the edge of the bed and the giving partner can sit on a chair. Other times, if you've got more flexibility, more mobility, receiving partner lies down and giving partner sits between their legs, right?

[00:25:17] Plenty of oil. Massage oil that is appropriate for genital use. Basically any high quality oil you could eat fits this bill. Also some nice oils. I know they say don't use scented products on your genitals. It's different if it's a nice oil made with anti inflammatory stuff which is safe for, safe for mucosal membrane.

[00:25:35] So you can find something really good. And it starts with Not right on the genitals. So if you are giving this to a man, if it's a penis massage, you start with the thighs, up the inner thighs, down, like around the buttocks and down. And you really give a lot of attention to the thighs and buttocks first.

[00:25:52] Then it opens up from the perineum upwards. And it's a, what's so wonderful about it is that it is not really about technique. There, I do prompt, I lead, I lead this. If you come to me as a couple, it is optional to do the sexuality work. Not everyone does. But if you choose to, you may decide to be led in real time in this and my clients would have their camera off and I would speak it in real time.

[00:26:16] If that's like, okay. too edgy. I also have these as recorded meditations that you can listen to on your own time and know that I'm not there, right? So it isn't about technique, and I think that's the way we often approach sex when we're in a non ritual way, where we're like, oh, it's a technique, like, ways to please your man.

[00:26:34] That is not what this is. This is about attention. The space is set It's nice and quiet. The attention is flowing from the giver to the receiver. The receiver's attention is in his body. The giver's attention is on his body, right? Or vice versa. If she's receiving, her attention is all the way inside of herself, feeling and being with whatever comes up, both emotions and sensations, and his attention is on her body.

[00:26:59] her body. For the female one, it starts with these big heart shapes that go up and around the breasts and back to the genitals. You start a little remote and you work in. And it's not about like, oh, this stroke is, you might discover a stroke that's so good. That is a wonderful gift along the way. But what makes it special Is that you are taking a block of time and just giving your attention and your curiosity and devotion.

[00:27:24] It is a devotional practice. It is almost like a prayer. And when you show up with that quality of holding and respect and love for your partner's body, there's something absolutely profound that happens. To be given that is beautiful and special and it really doesn't happen very much in everyday life.

[00:27:44] So that, if anyone listening really wants to add a little bit of ritual to their sex life, I would recommend this. It helps to set aside a time, half an hour minimum, can be an hour, but like a good chunk of time where you know you're not going to be interrupted, sound privacy, visual privacy, and then just whoever's giving is giving, whoever's receiving is receiving, it is not a quid pro quo.

[00:28:07] It is a one way practice. And that may seem like a burden on the giver, but try it. Because if your attention is devotional, it is not a burden at all. It is like a real joy and a pleasure and it can turn around. It can actually change the way you see your partner's body, the way you see your partner's genitals, and the way you see your genitals.

[00:28:27] Yourself as a sexual being. If you're coming to this being like, I don't know, penises are sort of weird. Like they feel good, but like, which is how I started this work. Just to be clear, it was this practice that made me actually in awe, really in awe and wonder and appreciation that I get to be so close to my husband and that I get to enjoy this part of his body in this 

[00:28:47] Jill: way, you know, it's like.

[00:28:49] Making me think of I had somebody asked me older, right? Not old, but older about intimacy as you near the end of life. And especially when you think about having a partner that may be ill, they may be sick. You know, they're not necessarily going to want to engage in full on sex. A practice like that might be a really beautiful way to stay intimate and connected with somebody with the understanding that they may not be able to give it back to you in return.

[00:29:26] When you were talking about like the lighting, when I am sitting with somebody who's dying, I dim the lights, I put on candles, I try to have scents that are pleasant. And it's not touch that involves genitals at all. But again, if it's maybe your partner, then of course. But one of the things that I try to encourage people to do is with their loved ones.

[00:29:46] So often I'll see the people in the room are so far away. They are so uncomfortable, they don't want to get near them. I'm like, no, touch your person. Touch their hand. Touch their arm. Touch their face. Touch their chest. Not in sexual ways, but it's very. intimate to be with somebody that is dying, especially if it's somebody that you love, but that practice for a partner that may be struggling with, how do we stay intimate and connected in a way that's not necessarily going to put pressure on somebody to like, we need to have sex the way that we always used to.

[00:30:23] That could really actually be a beautiful practice to do with somebody. 

[00:30:28] Kate: I can definitely see that. If we go back to the platonic view, I remember being with my grandmother when she was dying. Things aren't familiar. Their skin turns weird colors, but bringing that quality of devotion, like if I were to hold her hand and rub oil into her hand, bringing the same quality of curiosity, devotion, and openness.

[00:30:46] One of the things from more classical Tantra and also Neanderthal Tantra is this idea that You can find the divine in everything. It's not like only good things are divine. Everything's divine. And so death is divine. Death is so holy, right? The marks on your grandmother's hands are divine. As her body fails, it's divine.

[00:31:05] It can be very hard to walk up to and look at. Because it doesn't seem pleasant, but it's still divine. Now, for the more intimate partner experience, a couple where one of them is, is in the process of dying, is very sick, absolutely, I think genital massage could be so beautiful. One of the aspects I love that Layla adds into the genital massage is praise of the genitals, praise of the body, which I think, as we were talking about before, a lot of wounding patterns.

[00:31:33] We carry are around our genitals being dirty and wrong and bad. So to be treated with that kind of expressed appreciation and reverence is really special. And it can be a little hard to receive because it's that emotional, but it is really, really special. And you could do that anywhere on your lover's body, but the genitals are a particularly powerful place.

[00:31:56] What I also love about this practice with respect to aging is that it does not matter. If there's an erection, it does not matter if there's an orgasm. That is not the point. There may be 10 orgasms. They're mating them. As far as the male body receiving, we edge, we do not go all the way to orgasm until at the end, there's an option to, if you want, but we actually avoid it.

[00:32:19] And if there is never an erection, it's completely okay. The praise still comes, the devotion still comes, and just the time spent with these very worthy. Parts of the body is still there. I love how much that takes the pressure off. It doesn't really matter how old you are or what your body is going through.

[00:32:40] As long as it's not painful, as long as you can receive it with pleasure, it's worth doing. 

[00:32:45] Jill: Yeah, and that idea too of their Being no pressure or there to be an orgasm or an erection or anything, it's really just about giving that intimacy, giving that love to somebody that you love and care about. And because, yes, depending on where somebody's at in a journey of an illness.

[00:33:06] medications, different treatments, there may not be the possibility of there being an erection or an orgasm, but that doesn't mean you need to lose the intimacy. And I think unfortunately, in our culture, we see orgasm as the goal of sex. Especially for men, like how many times you'll hear if a woman orgasms, it doesn't really matter.

[00:33:26] But if the man doesn't have an orgasm, then it's not a successful sexual encounter. I feel like we just lose so much of what sex can really be about. But like you said, at the beginning, some of it is a control kind of thing. Because if we allow ourselves to have that intimacy, and if we allow ourselves to fully open to the experience.

[00:33:51] It is a religious sacred experience. I don't think we would need religion if people were actually having sex and opening up to it in the way that we could quit if we allowed ourselves. And that could be a problem. If we don't need people to control us, then the people that like to control us lose 

[00:34:09] Kate: their power.

[00:34:10] Certainly sex is a really beautiful opportunity to experience ecstatic things and ecstasy is so entwined with spirituality and with religion. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to add something to the aging and the ailing. I want to add more of the female bodied receiving experience because I know that particularly in cancer treatments, the cancer treatments take a huge toll.

[00:34:36] on the woman's tissues, on her vagina, on her mucosal membrane and her tissues, and that tearing can be easy and comfort can be hard. So in this case, giving a genital massage with lots and lots of oil so slow, right, can not only Perhaps, perhaps we can get to pleasure, right? That would be lovely. Even hovering your hands and just doing the devotional praise and sticking to the thighs.

[00:35:00] Even if you're just massaging the thighs and up in the inguinal, the bikini line area, you're bringing more blood flow to a part of the body which is ailing, which allows it to heal more, which increases comfort, right? So we can even be healing. Supportive of the physical healing. And I think that's something 

[00:35:18] Jill: too, that I was just thinking about with this type of massage, as well as if you're massaging anybody that is at the end of life, their arms, their hands, their feet, it's not massage.

[00:35:27] Like when you go to the massage parlor, it's not like that deep tissue. This is gentle. There's some pressure, but it is a very different type of massage. So for people that are listening that maybe haven't experienced this type of touch. It's not massage. Like I got a knot in my shoulder and I'm going to rub that knot out.

[00:35:47] Like we're talking a very different gentle touch and it is sensitive areas. It's trying to bring something different to the experience, right? It's very healing. Like you mentioned, it's very healing to be held and to be touched. A lot of us haven't had that since we were little children. Some people never even had that as children.

[00:36:06] They weren't held in a loving, gentle way. That's the type of touch we're talking about, whether it's in regards to sexuality or even the end of life. It's that nurturing, healing, loving type of touch. 

[00:36:20] Kate: Yes. Another kind of ritual that I sometimes do, back to my baby loss moms, around the issue of trauma stored in the pelvis.

[00:36:28] It's something called genitally dearmoring, and I've learned this both from Layla Martin and from Rahi Chun, who is a sexological body worker who works out of California. And in genital dearmoring, you're basically doing acupressure around the genitals. It doesn't have to be that hard. You put a finger, or if you're internal, you might use a wand or a dildo.

[00:36:49] You put a finger, and you hold, and you breathe, and you feel. And again, it's physical sensations, it's emotions. And as you work your way, point by point, exploring the entire genital complex, you'll be so surprised. What comes up? You'll be so surprised what gets unleashed. This spot makes me cry. This spot makes me laugh.

[00:37:12] That spot makes me want to punch someone in the face. The emotions are hiding in the tissues. And to feel it and breathe it and let it move, we call it dearmoring because it can literally open up the pelvis. It is also acupressure massage on your pelvic floor, particularly when you're inside. There's a softening and opening and sometimes a release.

[00:37:30] Sometimes it's, it's felt and then it's gone. And this is really powerful practice as well. I've been describing this as a self practice as I am touching myself, but it can also be a partner practice. My partner is touching me. I actually have a friend who 

[00:37:44] Jill: we'd been friends for a long time. And then one day I was like, what do you actually do?

[00:37:47] She's like, Oh, I. Do de armoring on women. People pay me and it's not sexual. I was like, wait, what is it you do? And she was like, it's not sexual at all. She was like, but I use these different points to release. I was like, that is fascinating. I had no idea. There's actually people that will come in and do that.

[00:38:05] They're trained to do it. Like she did a training. That's the work that she does. So yes, you don't have to do these things yourself. And I think some of it too, is. You know as you were saying about the different emotions like it might be sadness it might be like oh that actually feels good That makes me laugh that makes me angry.

[00:38:21] Like I want to hurt somebody it makes me angry All of that is valid We get so quick to judge ourselves and that's where grief and and sex feel like a lot of it is very tied people that are grieving feel judged by society, but then they also judge themselves. Like, I shouldn't feel angry. I shouldn't feel that this is funny.

[00:38:40] I shouldn't feel joy. I shouldn't feel these things. I should only feel sad that this person is gone. Well, no, we can feel all of these things. They're all valid. And it's the shame and the judgment that we, get externally, but also internally, that causes us so much pain and suffering, where if we could just sit with all the feelings, sit with it and just be like, it's okay.

[00:39:02] It's okay to feel this way. Yes. All of it's okay. Let's just be and feel and experience. 

[00:39:09] Kate: Grief is intense. It's hard sometimes. Some days it's so overwhelming, you have to break the seconds down into milliseconds to make it through the day. I can't spare anybody that. But what I can spare you is all of the energy.

[00:39:22] You use up fighting it and making it wrong and calling yourself names about it. Grief takes what it needs in terms of energy and attention. Your cognitive abilities, not going to be on point when you're grieving. Just not going to be on point. And I can't fix that for you. But what I can do, Is help you to forgive yourself, help you to love yourself, and let you enjoy all of the peace that opens up inside of you when that fight just drops.

[00:39:49] The surrender that opens up when you're like, okay, this is where I am and I love myself. That is something we can control quite a lot. I love that. And we're 

[00:39:57] Jill: almost out of time. 

[00:39:58] Kate: It's 

[00:39:58] Jill: a great conversation. I've really enjoyed this, but why don't you tell us a little bit more about the work that you do?

[00:40:05] Again, I know you mentioned you can do it over zoom. So if people want to reach out to you, how can they contact you? And I'll put the links in, but just tell us a little bit more about you and your business and how you do 

[00:40:15] Kate: it. Thank you. So you can find my coaching work at nightbloomcoaching. com. And there, I'm, I'm gearing up.

[00:40:23] Exciting preview. I'm gearing up. I'm going to start offering some groups and some courses. Right now, what's been on offer is one on one or couples coaching. That's still definitely there, but stay tuned. Join the email list. If you would like to learn more. There's also a blog that might resonate with some of your listeners.

[00:40:40] In addition to that, I am in the process of planning a retreat in Mexico specifically for TFMR moms. TFMR, termination for medical reasons, it's an abortion that happens because you're in a medical emergency. So if any listeners are, are interested. That's your situation. Please join the email list and you'll hear about the retreat when the details get hashed out.

[00:40:59] In addition to that, I have a Facebook group called Through the Fire. It's for general womb grief, infertility journeys, hysterectomy that happened before you were done having children, stillbirth, miscarriage, ectopic, terminations of any sort, abortion for any reason, all of that is welcome in Through the Fire, and I offer.

[00:41:19] Occasional somatic practices and we're the sounding board for anything you need to share as a support group as well, but I Love working one on one with clients. I love working with couples So if you think that I would be a fit for your needs, please reach out at nightbloomcoaching. com Right now inquiry calls are free.

[00:41:38] And as long as the spammers don't annoy me too much, they'll stay free So, please please do reach out And 

[00:41:44] Jill: how did you come up with the name of your business? Because I know, like, it took me forever to pick the name for my business. It was very intentional, and I really like the name of your business. So how did you end up 

[00:41:55] Kate: coming up with that?

[00:41:56] Conversely, in about five seconds, I just knew it. I just knew that's what I wanted it to be. So I'm a gardener. Right? I've always wanted to grow a moon garden. And a moon garden is a garden planted all in white, favoring flowers that bloom at night and are scented. So when I picked night bloom, I was thinking of my Brugmansias, my Daturas, my moonflowers.

[00:42:18] What's so interesting, and you're going to love this because it's the whole sex and life and death thing. What's so interesting about all of those plants is they are also poisonous. Hallucinogenic and historically used in certain rituals as well. And even though I am not a plant medicine facilitator, I do have friends who are, and sometimes my clients come to me because they are doing some sort of medicine and want extra integration.

[00:42:40] I would never prescribe because I'm not qualified to tell you what to take. Or to even hold that space while you're in that process, but I do often work with people who outside of that process want more integration. I love the plants, I love the darkness, I love this idea of the white shining out of the darkness even in the moonlight.

[00:42:56] It just felt like what I want for my clients. It would be weird for me to go all high vibe on a grieving population, so what I love to think instead is of this magical, mystical garden in which there are special flowers that bloom just for you. 

[00:43:10] Jill: I love it so much. I knew there had to be some kind of interesting reason.

[00:43:14] And yes, I'm a gardener as well. I love the idea though about these flowers that bloom at night. It's so hard because in the world today, there's so much of this spiritual bypassing, if you want to call it that, but that high vibe of no, we, we, we really need to honor all of it. And the more that we try to pretend that The darkness doesn't happen the more that I feel that we keep ourselves from the light like we need to have all of it.

[00:43:41] And the more that we can honor all of it, the more whole we will be, which I know that's part of tantra, right? It's like bringing back that masculine feminine balance, like the wholeness, all of that stuff. It goes very well together. 

[00:43:53] Kate: I did a training for other sex coaches around how to hold baby loss as an experience.

[00:43:58] I started it by being like, please don't ever ask a grieving person to write a gratitude journal. Just don't do it. If they want to, that's fine. Some people will go the gratitude path as part of their healing journey, but don't force it. So many of the things that we think of as personal development work are completely inappropriate and out of place with grieving people.

[00:44:17] Jill: Yeah, that's a great point too. 

[00:44:19] Kate: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure to speak with you. I really 

[00:44:22] Jill: appreciate you coming on. I enjoyed this so much. In next week's episode, Certified Executive Advisor David Eady shares invaluable insights from his book, Executor Help, How to Settle an Estate, Pick an Executor, and Avoid Family Fighting.

[00:44:38] Drawing from his own ordeal of settling his parents estate, despite them having a will, David provides practical advice in helping families avoid the legal battles, financial strain, and emotional turmoil he experienced. He explains how proactive estate planning can provide peace of mind, protect loved ones from unnecessary stress, and leave behind a legacy of love and clarity rather than chaos.

[00:45:02] If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others.

[00:45:19] The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can.

[00:45:36] You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution. Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.