Turning Toward Grief with Grief Coach and Death Midwife Naila Francis

In this episode my guest is Naila Francis, a grief coach, poet, interfaith minister, and community grief tender dedicated to providing compassionate, holistic support for those navigating grief, loss, and dying. Born in Barbados and raised across several Caribbean islands, she moved to the Philadelphia area as a child. 


Her early career as a journalist and greeting card writer offered her unique insights into the human experience, but her path shifted as she felt called to work more directly with grief. In 2021, she founded Salt Trails, a collective designed to create safe spaces for community grief rituals, a vision inspired by the immense collective grief brought on by the pandemic.

Naila’s primary focus now is helping people feel less overwhelmed and isolated in their grief. She creates nurturing environments where individuals can honor their losses without judgment and at their own pace, using tools and practices that support emotional well-being. Her workshops, like Writing the Broken Heart, use poetry and journaling as a way to connect participants with their emotions, offering solace and a sense of community. In our conversation, she recounts how participants have found healing by simply allowing themselves to cry and be present with their pain, a testament to her mission of giving grief the respect and space it deserves.

Naila shares her belief that grief, when approached with intentionality, can open us to more authentic living. She addresses the common fear of being consumed by overwhelming emotions and shares how fully embracing grief has led her to feel more alive and aligned with her true self. By turning toward grief rather than resisting it, she explains, people can experience profound healing and even unlock unexpected creativity. Her work is grounded in the understanding that while grief is often seen as something to overcome, it can instead be a deep source of connection and self-discovery.

For those interested in community-based grief rituals, follow Salt Trails on Instagram or visit her website, This Hallowed Wilderness, to learn more about her work and offerings.

Website: This Hallowed Wilderness
Instagram: @thishallowedwilderness
Facebook: This Hallowed Wilderness
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Transcript

[00:00:00] Naila: That's what I want for people, to be okay where they are in their messiness and their tenderness and whatever feels really alive in their grief, to be able to express that and know that there's no shame in it. It's just a part of being human. 

[00:00:15] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach here on my show.

[00:00:22] I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

[00:00:41] In this episode, I welcome Nyla Francis. a grief coach, poet, interfaith minister, and a community grief tender. Nyla shares her journey to becoming a grief advocate in the Philadelphia area, starting with her early career as a journalist and greeting card writer, to the creation of Salt Trails, and A collective for community grief rituals.

[00:01:02] Nyla discusses how she helps people process their grief through workshops like writing the broken heart, using poetry and journaling to honor their emotions without judgment. She emphasizes the importance of fully experiencing grief and how embracing it has aligned her more deeply with life. Nyla also addresses the common fear of getting lost in overwhelming emotions and explains how turning towards grief can lead to profound healing, self discovery, and even unexpected creativity.

[00:01:31] Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Nyla. We actually met like two years ago, I believe, when Salt Trails did a grief, I don't know, it was in October, I think, a couple years ago. And it was really one of the most. Beautiful experiences of my life. I didn't realize that I was holding this grief I actually kind of came just because I wanted to come support and I was like, yeah, it's my birthday It actually was on the day of my birthday So I was like, oh, it's my birthday and me and my husband are gonna go so we could support these lovely humans in philadelphia That are doing amazing work and then I cried my eyes out.

[00:02:09] So it's how it goes but I know we didn't really get a chance to talk. I've been wanting to invite you on the podcast and now you're here. So thank you so much for coming on with me today. 

[00:02:20] Naila: Oh my gosh, Jill. Thank you for having me. That whole story just warmed my heart and I'm wondering if it was maybe our first grief processional because we do them in October or maybe it was our second grief processional.

[00:02:35] It would 

[00:02:35] Jill: have been the second one. I think it was two years ago. It wasn't this past birthday. It was the birthday before. I just remember this woman was singing and it just like cracked my heart open and like, being able to walk with everybody around Philly, around this really amazing park if people aren't familiar with Philly.

[00:02:54] It's so beautiful and it's so diverse and it's just a really lovely area, Philly. And so we all had signs and people had problems, but it just, it was amazing. So if you live outside of Philly or in Philly, you should definitely come to one, but it really was. It's just so moving. I didn't know that I needed to release what I needed to release until it came up and then I was like, well, here it comes.

[00:03:18] And that's okay. Sometimes that's how grief works. Yeah. We don't always know it's there. We don't always expect it when it comes up, but when it does, just embrace it and let it go and it's okay. 

[00:03:30] Naila: Yeah. And that sort of ritual space is the container that lets people know there's a safe, nonjudgmental space you can be for whatever wants to move through you.

[00:03:40] I'm really glad you had that experience. I never know what I'll encounter in those kind of spaces either. Sometimes I go expecting to be really emotional and I'm not. And sometimes I'm just like, big relief.

[00:03:56] Jill: That does happen, where we often don't get what we expect, but we get what we need from experiences. Can you tell me a little bit more about you? Who you are? Are you from Philadelphia originally? Any background information? 

[00:04:10] Naila: Yeah, so I am actually from the Caribbean originally. I was born in Barbados, grew up there, and also on the islands of St.

[00:04:19] Lucia, where most of my family is from, and Antigua. Then my dad moved us to the Philadelphia suburbs when I was 10 because he got a job in the area. So I'm in Philadelphia now, but I've sort of been in the area ever since. And before I came to this work in grief, I was a journalist for many years and also a greeting card writer.

[00:04:43] I'm also a poet and an interfaith minister. I wear a lot of different hats. 

[00:04:49] Jill: You really do. And that's amazing. I mean, that's part of life, right? To go through different phases and to be able to say, You know, I did this thing for a while and it was perfect for then and now it's time to go on and do something else.

[00:05:03] So it's really great you did that. 

[00:05:05] Naila: Yeah. When I was a journalist, I majored in journalism in college and I just thought that would be the thing I did forever. It didn't occur to me that there'd be all these evolutions and different chapters. And a great part of my job, I was an arts and entertainment reporter for part of my journalism career.

[00:05:20] And I would interview all these musicians and writers and theater. And I loved that so much. Sometimes I would just have a moment where I reflect and think, That is so vastly different from what I'm doing now. Wow. It's kind of amazing the turns that our life can take. And I used to really miss it when I was done and think, Oh, maybe I'll take all my interviews and compile them into a book, or maybe I'll try to freelance around this or do something with it.

[00:05:49] And now it does definitely feel like that was then. This is now. I've really moved on from that phase. 

[00:05:55] Jill: And the nice thing too, is you can always take the interviews later on. You could be 85 and be like, you know what? I'm done. I'm done. I think I'm going to revisit that idea of taking the interviews and putting them in a book.

[00:06:06] I mean, that's the thing that I find, unfortunately, sometimes in our culture, there's this idea of what we say we're going to do at 18, 19, 20, right? You go to college, you get this degree, this is what you're going to do. And then when people change their mind or they just change careers for whatever reason, it's almost viewed as this failure.

[00:06:26] And it's like, no, we can change, right? There's nothing wrong with change. I came from food service and now I'm working in end of life, totally different career. I had really bad imposter syndrome at first because so many people working in this space, you know, even. I remember the first time I talked with Lori from Philly Death Doulas and Lori was like, oh, you know, all of us were all therapists, like all this stuff.

[00:06:50] And I was like, I'm just a cook. Like, I don't have any, I'm not a nurse. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a therapist. I'm a cook. But then I realized that in some ways, coming from totally outside of the world actually gave me a perspective that was different and that allowed me to see holes that needed to be filled because I came so far outside of it.

[00:07:12] But there was definitely some imposter syndrome going on of like, I don't know what I'm doing. 

[00:07:17] Naila: I imagine a lot of us have that at some point along the way. 

[00:07:20] Jill: And that's okay. It's all right to feel that way. And the work that you do now, like, I know you have Salt Trails, but that's not your job. Is that like a nonprofit kind of thing?

[00:07:33] Like, this is where I tried even just rereading your stuff and you do have a lot of different things that I was like, I'm just going to ask. 

[00:07:40] Naila: Salt Trails, it's not. a non profit. We've talked about should we make it a non profit. We haven't really got there yet. It's a collective founded in 2021, wanting to gather people who I knew would be interested in doing this to create spaces for community grief rituals.

[00:08:00] And, you know, that was, In the height of the pandemic when we were all grieving in isolation and carrying so much grief and I just wanted people to have a space where they could come and be held and express it and move through it and receive some care. So that's sort of a side. Project, if you will, my main work right now is as a grief coach and a community grief tender, even though Salt Trail has community grief tending, I do a lot of tending in my community in the form of workshops and people inviting me into spaces.

[00:08:34] If they're holding something really heavy and they need somebody to be in the space with them and help them navigate what that looks like. And then one on one work with clients. 

[00:08:42] Jill: It's beautiful because it is so needed. Especially within communities, you know, I think we have gotten so far away of communities helping grieve, right?

[00:08:53] Whether it's a collective grief, whether it's an individual person that needs the support, you know, we've lost that community feel and grief is one of those things that Community can be really healing or you can just be so isolated if you feel like you're grieving alone. 

[00:09:08] Naila: I actually just finished a writing series with my local community learning center called Writing the Broken Heart.

[00:09:15] It's using poetry and journaling and there's some teaching involved, but just giving people a place to process their grief. One woman said at the end, I never imagined that I would be able to come into a space and cry in front of people. And that was so. healing and nourishing for her to be able to do that, to just let her tears fall and not feel like she had to cover them up or apologize for them or offer some explanation.

[00:09:40] And that really moved me because that's what I want for people, to be okay where they are in their messiness and their tenderness and whatever feels really alive in their grief, to be able to express that and know that they're okay. There's no shame in it. It's just a part of being human. 

[00:09:58] Jill: And that was one of the hardest parts for me when I was at Salt Trails.

[00:10:01] Even though it's my husband, he doesn't see me cry that often. So being there with him and starting to cry and being out in public and around people that I didn't know, it was really hard for me. And I think that's part of why it was so healing because there was the part of me that was like, nope, stop, don't do this, like push it back down.

[00:10:20] And then there was the other part of me was like, no, open up, just let it out. And they were like arguing with each other, kind of, which I think is pretty common for a lot of us expressing emotions is viewed as weak. And we try to shove it down. That is part of why it was actually so healing for me, allowing myself to feel safe in expressing this emotion, the tears, all the stuff, even around my husband, who I'd been with for 22 years.

[00:10:49] I still don't really cry a lot. It's just not a thing that I'd done for a long time. It was a process for sure. 

[00:10:57] Naila: Yeah, it's making me think it's actually kind of funny in some ways that I do this work. I've always been a crier in the sense that I'm very easily moved by movies and songs and art and things like that.

[00:11:08] But to actually express my own genuine, true emotions about what I am feeling has been challenging for me for most of my life. I mean, I always say my big primary grief was And my dad died in 2012. But when I look back at my parents divorce and moves that we had and so much that was going on in my teenage years, I had so much grief that I was carrying that I wasn't aware of.

[00:11:33] And I don't think I really started honoring that in any way or looking at it or moving through that until I was in my thirties. I was not comfortable at all with that. big emotions with crying in front of people with any of that. But I have found that it keeps me true to myself to be in the world that way.

[00:11:53] Jill: Yeah. And sometimes for me, at least, um, even being honest with myself about what I'm feeling is not always easy. I kind of lie to myself sometimes, and it's just a learned behavior like everything else. Sometimes when we notice it, then we could change it. But I realized that at some point and within the last few years, you're not even honest with yourself.

[00:12:16] So how are you going to be honest with other people? You know? And like, and it's not, I mean, I, I don't want to say, like, I'm not somebody that goes out and like lies to people about things. It's more emotions, right? It's more what I'm feeling. 

[00:12:28] Naila: But I think even that too, allowing ourselves to feel it sometimes invites change.

[00:12:33] So that's part of that dynamic and that tension too. Well, if I really look at this, something's going to have to shift. So I think I'll just not for a while. 

[00:12:42] Jill: And knowing that you can feel it and you'll survive it, because there was definitely some of that too of, the big feelings, especially the grief that we're holding.

[00:12:51] Cause yeah, I mean, like you pointed out the grief from like parents splitting up, moving, of losing friendships, of changing careers, right? There's so many things that have grief tied up in them that we don't acknowledge it as grief. And so we're just holding all of it. I got to that point where it really did feel like physical feeling in my chest.

[00:13:11] It felt almost like my chest was splitting open. And I knew it wasn't quote unquote real. I knew I wasn't dying. I knew my chest wasn't literally opening up, but I could feel it so deeply in my body that part of me was like, you're going to die. This is it. Like, this is going to kill you. You're going to die.

[00:13:29] And then I was like, you're not going to die, Jill. It's fine. You're not going to die. Once I moved through that whole thing and then made it out on the other side and was like, actually, I do feel a lot better now. Now I'm not as afraid of it. Once I did it the first time and was like, no, you'll be fine.

[00:13:45] It's not going to kill you. If anything, holding these things is potentially what's going to kill you. It's what causes a lot of diseases in people. 

[00:13:52] Naila: Yeah. I remember Francis Weller. I'm sure you're familiar with. His work, he's the author of The Wild Edge of Sorrow, Psychotherapist, for those who may not be familiar.

[00:14:02] He talks about this, you know, people are always afraid that if they let themselves feel those big emotions, they won't come back, but he's always like, if you don't feel them, you won't come back. And I think that's so common because it is so scary and consuming and it's like, oh my gosh, I will never get up off the floor if I go there.

[00:14:23] For me, and this wasn't something that came out easily or instantaneously in any way, but I feel that there's some deep aliveness that happens when we allow ourselves to feel those emotions. I don't know how many of us actually go through our days or our life with the awareness of how alive we truly are, how tuned into the energies around us, how open our heart is, how expansive we feel or close we feel.

[00:14:52] The emotions of grief are so Big and mysterious and unpredictable having access to that full range and allowing ourselves to feel that just cracked me open to a sense of being more alive and more in touch with my own vitality and humanity than anything else. could have in my life. 

[00:15:14] Jill: Yeah, I really like two of the things that you said there just about it being the thing that when we can feel our Emotions right when we can allow ourselves to move through them That is when we get to the real us we get under the trauma and the pain and all of the masks And the walls that we've put up over time, because I was thinking about this the other day.

[00:15:37] Somebody posted something on Instagram, and I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something along the lines of, I remember as a child before trauma happened, what it actually felt like to feel joy, to feel happiness, to feel alive. And I've thought that even myself, that I can remember being a child.

[00:15:56] It's not that the me that's here isn't the real me, but I feel like the real me has gotten. Pushed down because it didn't feel safe. There was the pain that was covering. There was the trauma that was covering. There was the walls that I was putting up to keep myself safe. So the real me is in there and it comes out alive, but not really.

[00:16:16] The more we do this work, the more that we get to the real us. Because then we could heal the things that caused us to put the walls up and to shove things down. And it, I think, ties in with exactly what you're saying about really feeling alive. Then that's when I actually can experience the world in a different way.

[00:16:32] The more that I heal this wounding and this grief. And that was part of the thing, too. I think with this post, I had left a comment on it, whoever it was. It was probably another death ruler, because I feel like that's all I followed on social media. I think for me as a child, when I look back to The young me, and then I think back to, it's almost like I could feel a break, like a time when it was like there was this Jill and then there was the other Jill.

[00:16:57] The other Jill is really grieving what it was like before I realized how terrible people could be, before I realized how painful the world could be. I have a lot of grief tied up with that. But again, I didn't really think about it that way. A lot of what we're feeling is actually grief. It's like, no, I'm angry that this person did this to me.

[00:17:17] Well, are you really angry that they did that to you? Or are you grieving the fact that you used to be this other person before they did this thing to you and you want to be that other person again? And you can be. I do believe you, Kevin. 

[00:17:29] Naila: Yeah, that's so true. You know, I, I had an experience two years ago of just realizing sort of that I was ready and open to be in relationship again.

[00:17:40] I was ready for love again. I had been single for a long time. My last relationship ended and it was with somebody I thought was my soulmate. This was the love of my life. We're going to get married and that's it. It didn't work out. I thought I was living with my heart so open because I was doing all these things, doing this work.

[00:17:57] You tend to think like, Oh, somebody who does this work, of course their heart is open. I was volunteering in an orphanage in Tanzania. I was just doing all these things. And it wasn't until I had a realization of like, Oh, I think I'm really ready. And I've been missing this, that I felt grief for the part of me that had shut down and closed herself off.

[00:18:17] to love. I totally relate to what you're saying. It was like this opening up, like, I'm ready, but wait, before I'm really ready, I just need to feel the grief of all the ways that I said no. 

[00:18:28] Jill: Yeah. And then there's the shame and the guilt that's tied up with a lot of things like, Oh, I should have never done this.

[00:18:34] I shouldn't have dated this person. And, you know, shame to me doesn't lead to anything good, right? Shame is just a way to punish ourselves or have somebody else punish us, right? 

[00:18:44] Naila: Yeah. 

[00:18:45] Jill: Yeah. And I, I love that, that you were able to, and the, like, thought too, is almost every time I get to a point where I'm like, okay, I think I've healed a lot, I think I'm in a good place.

[00:18:57] Then it's like the universe is like, poke, poke, you think so? Trying to find this other thing in there before your ego gets too big and you think, okay, I've healed. I'm good. Like, like. Yeah. I 

[00:19:08] Naila: don't think we'll ever be done. And then there's some things I just think we can't know if we've healed them until we're in a particular set of circumstances or in a certain relationship.

[00:19:18] We could do all that work that prepares us, but then it's like, okay, when you're actually in this circumstance, are you going to react the same way or no? Yeah. 

[00:19:27] Jill: Yeah. And then the universe puts you in a situation where it's like, all right, here you go. Try it out. See how you do. And I actually had something happen.

[00:19:34] So we're recording this right before Father's Day. I was in a group call yesterday, the two women in the call, one woman is trans and she was talking about her experience of telling her father that she was going to be transitioning and just how amazing it was. And he was so supportive and loving. And the other woman's talking about how great her father was.

[00:19:52] And they're like, how about your dad? And I was like, he's okay. Like, we don't really have a very. We don't have a bad relationship. We just don't have much of a relationship. And in the past, fathers, they used to upset me. Anytime people would talk about how great their dads were, it would upset me. Anytime people would ask me about my dad, it would upset me.

[00:20:10] Like, it just all of it would happen. And I got off the call yesterday and I was like, I feel fine, actually. Like, I really do feel like over time, and some of it, again, was also grieving when I realized that I've never been mad at him, but I was grieving the fact that I didn't have a strong father figure in my life.

[00:20:33] Right? And once I could really get clear with that, and then there was like, for a long time, there was some anger about me being in situations that I'm like, well, you were in that situation because you don't have a dad. And then that situation caused you to get hurt. And so then there was anger with that.

[00:20:48] But then again, the more that I kept thinking about it, the more I kept working with more, I was like, no, you're just sad. You're just grieving the fact that like, in the long run, I wouldn't change anything about my life. And if there would have been a different situation when I was a child. I would not be who I am today.

[00:21:04] I wouldn't be where I am today. So I wouldn't change any of it. It was just actually allowing myself to say, No, it's okay to feel sad. It's okay to feel grief about it. Like, for real. It's okay. And then yesterday I was like, able to be tested in a way. And I was like, Actually, I feel great. It was a great conversation.

[00:21:22] And even like the women at first, I could tell they were like, Oh, no. And I was like, No, no, no, it's fine. I promise. You just talked about how amazing your dads were and it's fine. I'm okay. But that's not my experience. That led to the conversation too. I think we see this a lot in like the death of space.

[00:21:38] of not everybody is going to celebrate Mother's Day or Father's Day because of whatever reason, because their parents weren't there, because their parents have died, whatever it is. Maybe they've cut off the relationship with their parents because they had to, but yet it's like we just get this idea of like, well, it's Father's Day or it's Mother's Day.

[00:21:55] So not everybody's celebrating that. For some people, it's really, really painful. And that's okay too, though. No shame in that. Yeah. 

[00:22:04] Naila: Yeah, but sometimes I also think that we don't have that awareness until something happens in our lives. I often think about that with my grief journey. I always wanted to support my friends and loved ones and be there.

[00:22:17] After my dad died, it was like, Oh, This is what it's really like. That's such an awakening. I think that, that journey of having a big loss or major change come into your life, whether it's somebody dying or an illness or diagnosis or just any kind of significant change where you're like, wow, I've actually said some of those things that you shouldn't say to anybody.

[00:22:38] Or I really haven't shown up in the way I would want people to show up for me now or whatever it is. Or like you're saying Mother's Day and Father's Day, like not everyone wants. to be wished. You know, happy Mother's Day or happy Father's Day. Yeah. There's a big learning curve that happens when we're thrust into grief.

[00:22:57] Jill: Yeah. Well, I think with life in general, right before this, I was actually teaching and one of my students students are getting ready to take a big test tomorrow. And we were reviewing this one practice test and one of my students was like, really annoyed that one of the other practice tests had a different answer for the same question.

[00:23:14] And he just kept going, but they told me something different. They told me something different. I was like, but I'm telling you if this question's on the real test tomorrow, this is the answer. And he was like, it's not fair. They told me this thing. And I was like, look, man. We learn a lot of things in life that eventually we get to a point where we're like, oh, that's not true.

[00:23:33] So what do we do? Do we get mad and try to force that to be the reality? Or do we unlearn what we were taught that was incorrect and relearn something new? Right? I think right now in society, that is very obvious in what's going on in society. A lot of us were taught things that just are not correct. And I think some of it was done with ill intentions.

[00:23:55] A lot of it was just done out of this is what I learned, so I'm just going to teach it without questioning, without thinking, without learning. A lot of us, especially, like you mentioned with grief, there's so many things in the world. And I, I can't stress this enough. There's so many things in the world that we can't know if we didn't experience it.

[00:24:14] But if somebody that experienced it is telling you that it's true, listen to them. Don't sit there and argue and be like, but I've never seen that. So it's not real. That's not how it works. Because thankfully we all do have different life experiences. And I think that's wonderful. That's what makes humans so amazing is we're all different people with all different experiences.

[00:24:35] But you can't understand somebody else's experience if you haven't lived it, other than listening to what they say and saying, wow, thank you for sharing that with me. Grief is a great example of it, that until you experience it, you really don't know what it feels like. And I think we've all done that.

[00:24:52] We've all said stupid things. I can't even count the amount of times I've said stupid things, but I 

[00:24:56] Naila: try to learn. I love what you just even said, thank you for sharing that with me. Because so many times people don't know how to respond. I think what so many of us in grief are craving is a witness. Just somebody to listen and to hold and not try to offer a solution or fix us, but just to be present with us in the moment and what we're sharing.

[00:25:20] So I think that's such a beautiful response, which might make some people uncomfortable. Cause it's like, well, how does that even solve anything? Like I have to do something, but I, I mean, what an honor. To hold a piece of someone's grief story, to have somebody open up in that way and share that with you.

[00:25:40] Jill: I like the use the word honor because I've often said that it feels like an honor and a privilege to sit with people who are dying, to sit with people on their grief, because it is such an intimate space. And if they are inviting you into that space, It feels like an honor and a privilege to me to be invited into that space.

[00:25:59] And it can be uncomfortable when society teaches us that silence is uncomfortable. Not knowing what to say is uncomfortable. Not knowing the answer is uncomfortable. And so that's when people end up just saying things. They're just parroting out what they've heard. without really thinking about the impact of it because they're uncomfortable.

[00:26:18] Sometimes it's okay to sit and be uncomfortable and to not know and to just listen and almost like literally bite your tongue. If you want to say something, sometimes the best thing to do is say nothing because the person on the other side just wants to be heard. They don't want an answer from you.

[00:26:34] They just want to be heard. 

[00:26:35] Naila: I think that's definitely a skill that takes practice. 

[00:26:39] Jill: Like a lot of skills, right? Yeah. There's always new things to learn and the only way to learn them is to practice. And well, like we said earlier about healing, right? With learning new things, we're never going to be perfect at anything.

[00:26:53] And I'm learning this even now, especially with my children who are 10 and 13, where I wouldn't even know what got said, what was done. Eventually I just said to my daughter, I'm trying my best. I'm not perfect. I'm sorry that what happened. Accent you so much. I'm sorry that it made you stressed out and anxious.

[00:27:14] I did not intend that. I'm learning as well. It was nice because she gets to witness me as, you know, I think sometimes we put our parents on pedestals, like they're perfect, right? Parents, teachers, clergy, all that stuff, right? They're perfect. And so then we could never live up to their expectations because they're perfect.

[00:27:34] And we're not sometimes just being like, I'm sorry. I don't always know the answers. Can really allow them to feel safe in saying the same thing to somebody. I'm sorry, I don't know the answer. Rather than feeling shame or guilt if they don't. 

[00:27:48] Naila: Yeah, what a beautiful teaching moment. 

[00:27:50] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:27:50] Naila: Parenting is so hard.

[00:27:52] Jill: That's a lot of the, the grief I felt during the walk a couple of years ago. I didn't realize how much grief I was holding from not being the parent I wanted to be, especially when my children were little. Like a lot of parents, we think. We know what we're going to do when we're parents and we think we've healed a lot of stuff and then children come along And they poke at all the stuff and we're not always going to handle it Well, and there was definitely times when I did not handle it Well, and I was holding so much grief and shame and sadness over it that I didn't even realize And then, I don't know, we were doing some exercise and like whatever reason that popped into my head and then I felt myself wanting to cry and I was like, whoa, all right, I guess that's my thing because I love my children so much, but I'm not perfect.

[00:28:43] And your kids definitely poke at all the really painful unhealed stuff. Yeah. 

[00:28:50] Naila: Yeah. I mean, I've heard that from so many of my friends. I don't have children of my own. I have a niece who I absolutely adore, but I have. Your kids can trigger a lot, healed and unhealed. So that in itself can be such a journey of reclaiming and showing up more authentically and choosing how we want to be.

[00:29:12] And it also just makes me think. Again, sort of like grief and dying, you can read all the books you want to read. You can take all the classes. I mean, it's always good to learn, but ultimately there are just some things where you have no idea what's going to be asked of you and how you're going to respond until you're in a moment.

[00:29:33] Jill: And just being authentic sometimes. I work with a variety of people now, even just volunteering at the hospital. And everybody's experience is different. You don't always know how you're going to respond to different situations, different people's responses to what's happening. And just being authentic and allowing yourself to show up.

[00:29:55] I think it's more just, you have to listen to people. It's really so much of it and I'm learning this. I've been doing this work now for four years, which is crazy that it's been that long. The biggest thing that I've been learning is that it's really just more about listening to other people and their experience and then doing the best that you can to offer solutions when needed or to say, maybe I don't know, but I'm going to help you find out because I don't know everything.

[00:30:24] But I will help you find out. That's part of what I'm doing is just supporting people getting the answers that they need. But so often it's they just need somebody that's going to sit with them and be non judgmental and compassionate for whatever they're experiencing. Grief and death, but also living life.

[00:30:40] If we could all take these skills that we use in end of life and grief and take them out into the world with people, we would just have a better society, a better world. Yeah, I agree 

[00:30:52] Naila: that peace is around compassion and acceptance and meeting people where they are. Which is hard. 

[00:30:58] Jill: It's not easy, but I don't think it has to be as hard as we make it either.

[00:31:02] I don't 

[00:31:03] Naila: think. No, because I'm sure you've experienced this. We encounter so many different People in this work, sometimes people come to me and I'm baffled that they want to work with me because our energy is so different or our personality is, I'm like, Oh, I don't know that you're quite a fit, but okay.

[00:31:19] It's amazing over time to watch their transformation or what shifts in them. I think part of that is because whether I think we're a fit or not, or whether I'm questioning why you chose me instead of somebody else, there really is something about that genuine presence. People are wanting that space to just be who they are and explore that.

[00:31:41] I think that can really deepen their own self awareness in their own journey and what they're walking with and what they maybe want to change or look at differently. 

[00:31:53] Jill: Everybody's journey is different and it has to be them doing the healing, right? We're not there to heal people. Word was there to guide them through their healing.

[00:32:02] They still need to do the work themselves, but having a guide for sure helps. 

[00:32:07] Naila: Yes, having that supportive presence. I know so many people are like, you're the grief expert. And I'm always like, I will always be a student in this work. I am always learning. I'm always growing, but yes, I have some skills I can share and offer.

[00:32:22] And yes, I can hold this space for you, but I definitely do not consider myself an expert. 

[00:32:27] Jill: I don't consider it anything. Yeah. And so, Even, again, I've been in food service a long, 30 years almost at this point. I think I started when I was 45, so almost 30 years. And there's still times when people will be like, oh, but you're like the expert with like baking or cakes.

[00:32:45] And I'm like, am I really though? There's always new stuff coming out, always new stuff to learn, even though the techniques are based off of very classical techniques. There's still just always new stuff. And so are we ever really an expert at anything? I think when we decide we are, then that's when we close ourself off to learning anything new.

[00:33:04] Naila: So true. 

[00:33:05] Jill: Yeah. And I think with grief, it is interesting because there is so much information out there, but then the more that you learn and the more that you read, it all boils down to some very similar things in that you don't know what you're going to feel until you feel it. Honestly, all of it's okay.

[00:33:21] There's no right or wrong. You don't know when it's going to end because it really never does end. So you're going to go in waves. And like, that's really kind of what it comes down to. It's hard for people when we want to know, we want to schedule things. And that's one thing too, that I do sometimes with people that you were saying earlier, how we're so afraid that once we open it up and we let it out, that we're going to be laying on the floor for hours.

[00:33:45] Crying and whatever else, and I will sometimes say to people, then set aside a certain amount of time. Set aside an hour. Give yourself an hour, feel the feelings, set the timer. When the timer goes off, you pick yourself up, take a shower, take a bath, or do whatever you need to do. Sometimes Scheduling it, as weird as that is, can help us feel safe to let it out.

[00:34:06] The more safe we feel, the more we're like, Oh, I don't need to schedule it. I'll be okay whenever it happens. 

[00:34:11] Naila: Because I do think that's part of what our grief wants. Now, it's not that we have to be constantly working in constantly in the depths of it, but just those moments. whether it's an hour or half hour, half a day, whatever, of just turning towards it with our attention and our curiosity and being like, what's here?

[00:34:29] What do you want me to know? What do I need to feel? And giving our grief that kind of reverent attention and that affection. I really think that's what it's asking of us, but that's not how any of us are taught to hold or approach grief. It's just this like, Move on. Try not to feel it. Don't think about it.

[00:34:50] I remember growing up, I just heard that so many times when something was upsetting to me. Just don't think about it. But how does that really work for you? You may not be thinking about it, but you're still processing it, and your body's still carrying it. And yeah, I just think that sort of, release and being able to do that, the repetition of it, coming back to that practice over and over again.

[00:35:10] If I'm going to turn toward my grief now, that helps us to see that, Oh, I can carry this, even though it's hard, even though there will still be moments where I'm like, I'm just never going to get out of this. I think over time, we do learn to carry it with a little more grace and compassion for ourselves and start to realize that we can do this.

[00:35:30] This is part of being human. We can do this. We know how to do this thing called grieving. I think society has just conditioned us to think otherwise because grieving is so not what. Not about producing anything. It's not about creating anything. It's not about going faster. It's not about triumphing. It's like all these things are antithetical to what society teaches us to value.

[00:35:55] And so I think that makes it so much harder for people to descend into this space where a culture that doesn't value dissent. 

[00:36:04] Jill: So much good stuff in that. I was thinking too, where you said, you know, like, we're not creating anything. There are people that with their grief, they do create, there's art, there's music, things that do get created out of the grief.

[00:36:16] But not by avoiding the grief. It's by listening to the grief and facing it and working with it and loving it and like doing all the things that we need to do. Then you can sometimes create things from your grief. And I think that's a beautiful way to work with grief using art or something that using your hands, using your body movement, things like that, work with our grief can be really helpful.

[00:36:43] Naila: Yeah, no, I agree. I think creative practice is Wonderful. I mean, that's part of, you know, I have so many grief poems. I have a lot of poems, but I have a lot of grief poems because that's part of how I process and access my grief. But I was thinking more about this idea that we have to produce something.

[00:36:59] You don't have to produce anything. You're grieving. If you need to produce something, produce tears, or produce your real emotions, but there's nothing that you need to offer anybody because you're grieving. 

[00:37:11] Jill: And that is unfortunately so cultural that so many times I still struggle with not doing things.

[00:37:20] Because I'm not producing because I'm not, you know, being a productive member of society if I'm just relaxing and even this summer, this is mid June and tomorrow's my kids last day of school, which this is not going to come out for a while. I did that on purpose because I wanted to take most of the summer off.

[00:37:40] Quote unquote off. So I could be with my family. So I could be with my children. So I can really take care of them and cook them lunch and do things with them. There's such a part of me that's really struggling with that because it's like that story in my head, that voice in my head. Well, you're not doing anything.

[00:37:57] if you're not working. And it's been hard to unlearn that. I'm still in the process of unlearning that. But this summer I'm giving myself the permission to not record any podcasts after this week and all through July and most of August. I'm not going to record any so that this way I can still put them out.

[00:38:17] I'll still edit them, but I'm not going to record them because I wanted to just focus and it's hard. 

[00:38:23] Naila: But I'm so glad you're doing that. Because I mean, living life, you're living life. And to me, that's so much more valuable than being on this hamster wheel of go and do. You're making beautiful memories.

[00:38:37] You're taking care of your children. I'm sure that feels like taking care of you in some moments when you're with them. What a beautiful gift to give yourself as challenging as it is. You're also allowing space for who knows what ideas or inspiration might strike when you're not constantly tied to all your shoulds and have tos.

[00:38:57] And I'm saying this as much for myself too, cause I have a really hard time slowing down and. Pausing and giving myself that kind of grace. 

[00:39:08] Jill: Well, we still see that message every day. Something came up on social media yesterday. It was like habits of the rich and famous or whatever. It was like, they get up early, they work longer.

[00:39:18] It was this whole list of things. I was reading it. In the past, I used to believe all that. And I used to strive for that. And I used to be almost, like, proud and brag about the fact that I used to get up at 5. 30 in the morning to get in a whole full hour of movement and yoga and meditation before anybody else got up.

[00:39:36] I would work longer than everybody else and I worked like, All of that stuff. And yesterday I was reading and I was like, nope, nope, nope, as I went down the list. And it felt good to see that and not feel shame and guilt, because that's what those posts used to do, was make me feel ashamed. And to look at it and be like, yeah, but you know what?

[00:39:57] Maybe that is what they do. Maybe that's how they make all the money. But there's a whole lot of us that that's what we were doing and we still weren't rich. Hey, kids. 

[00:40:05] Naila: There was something 

[00:40:06] Jill: still missing. 

[00:40:07] Naila: Yeah. And we don't know what's missing in their lives. I feel like for myself, one of the things that I am just starting to settle into is, even though I've known my whole life, I'm not a morning person.

[00:40:21] Before I came to this, work. I was in the corporate world. So I had to get up. I had to commute. I had to do all the things like that. Talk about breaking patterns and unwinding things that we've been doing. That has been so challenging for me to let go of this idea that as soon as I get up in the morning, it's like, go, what are you going to do?

[00:40:40] And I finally this year been like, you're not a morning person. So even if you get up early enough, but maybe you don't start doing anything until two hours later. That's okay. Have your coffee, exercise, meditate, sit outside, whatever it is you need to do to have your morning feel good to you. Just let yourself have that and then you can have the rest of the day to be quote unquote productive.

[00:41:05] Jill: Yeah. And I think too how sometimes even days when I spent the most amount of time working or doing whatever else, I'm not even necessarily productive that entire time because we're still distracting ourselves with stuff and in the phones, even in kitchens, as busy as I could be. It's still when it's in your pocket, you pull it out for a second, you're reading things, you're responding to things.

[00:41:28] So we're not always as productive as we think we are. We're just feeling better. And again, is it really feeling better? Or is it just quieting that voice in our head that's saying we need to be this busy all the time? And I, the more that I talk to people that are dying, the more that I really do understand.

[00:41:48] That when they're dying, they're not thinking about the mornings they got up, had their coffee and got ready to work. They're thinking about the times when they slowed down, when they did things with their family, when they enjoyed life. And that's what's really important. And our culture just has so many things.

[00:42:04] It's backwards. So 

[00:42:06] Naila: many things. Oh my gosh. That's like a whole other conversation and a conversation I keep having with so many people. It's 

[00:42:13] Jill: important to have that conversation because I do feel like the more that I talk to people like you that are like, no, it's okay if you're not getting up in the morning and right away busy, because I still do find myself doing that.

[00:42:24] Get up in the morning and right away I'm like, all right, where's my emails? I got to check this stuff. You're in it. Now I'm thinking, maybe I don't have to do that. Maybe I can get up and just have my cup of coffee on the porch and look at my garden and relax a little bit. I'm going to try. We'll see how it goes.

[00:42:38] So having the conversation, you're not telling me what to do, but you're also just telling me what you're doing and how it works for you and then it encourages me and then that's how we make these changes. Yeah. 

[00:42:51] Naila: Yeah, I have been some mornings I just go and I just stand outside on the grass with my bare feet and my coffee now that the weather is warmer.

[00:43:00] Do I ever regret that moment? Do I go inside and be like, Oh my God, I should have been responding to emails. No, because that resets my energy in a way that I think is more helpful and useful for me to start my day than jumping into all my to do's. But that is very much a learning that has taken me a long time to get to and I'm sure there will be days where I'm still like, Oh 

[00:43:23] Jill: my 

[00:43:23] Naila: God, I got 

[00:43:24] Jill: to do this thing.

[00:43:24] I can't do that to be perfect. Right. Sometimes I think too, how boring would life would be if there wasn't things to learn. Cause I'm one of those people that I actually love to learn new things. I really enjoy learning new things and. If there was nothing to heal, if there was nothing to learn, I probably would be kind of bored.

[00:43:44] It's not just like, I almost hate to admit that, you know, like, this is part of life. This is part of the experience. It's part of what makes things interesting. We get so We get down on ourselves and even worse, we get down on other people. Why can't you get this? What's wrong with you? There's nothing wrong with people.

[00:44:01] Maybe some people there is, but for the most part, I think most of us are just responding from the best place that we can at that time. Even if it's not good, it's the best that they could do at that time. And yeah. Getting down on somebody is not going to help them. It's not going to encourage them to do any better doing what you just did, which was like, you know what I learned?

[00:44:22] This thing really works well for me. And then I was like, Oh, okay. Maybe that's what I needed to hear that I couldn't do that. Right? That's what really makes the changes in the world. Oh my gosh, we actually are almost at time. Gosh, I hate that. That went so fast. I know. I feel like we just started talking.

[00:44:39] I know. That means that was a good conversation. I could 

[00:44:42] Naila: probably talk to you for like a whole other hour. 

[00:44:44] Jill: Which is not a bad thing because that just means we'll do it again sometime. But before we wrap up, why don't you tell everybody, and I'll put links in the show notes so you don't have to spell stuff out, but just tell everybody where they can find you, the best place to reach out to if they want to reach out to, whatever it is you want to share.

[00:44:59] Naila: Sure, you can find me at thishallowedwilderness. com. That's my website. My Instagram and Facebook are thishallowedwilderness. And if you want to email me, my email is nyla at thishallowedwilderness. com. 

[00:45:13] Jill: Awesome. And I will put links in the show notes so people can easily just go to that and click the link.

[00:45:18] and find you. This is amazing. Thank you. And hopefully I'll see you in person again in 

[00:45:24] Naila: one of these. I would love that. I would love to give you a hug and spend some time in your physical presence. That would be amazing. 

[00:45:31] Jill: Well, we'll have to make that happen. Thank you so much, Jill. Thank you. I appreciate you coming on today.

[00:45:36] In my next episode, I sit down with Adam Zuckerman, a lawyer and MBA, whose impressive career spans from Fortune 500 companies to hedge funds. Despite his corporate success, Adam found his true calling in a deeply personal and meaningful area, estate planning and end of life organization. Inspired by his experience, managing his late father's estate, Adam founded Buried in Work, a company dedicated to simplifying estate management where he equips individuals with the necessary tools to do this themselves.

[00:46:10] Adam shares why it's crucial to plan ahead, not just for legal matters, but for practical tasks, like managing digital accounts and the importance of preparing loved ones for a seamless transition during difficult times. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

[00:46:28] Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

[00:46:44] Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, Every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can, you can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo.

[00:47:03] If you prefer to make a one time contribution, thank you. And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of seeing death clearly.