Whitney Chew’s Insights on Death, Burnout, and Healthcare's Gaps

Whitney Chew, born and raised in California, recently moved to New York. As a physician, she completed her residency during the pandemic. However, less than a year after finishing, Whitney realized that being a physician wasn’t her long-term calling. During this time, she witnessed immense death and dying, not only in her role as a physician but also on a personal level with the loss of loved ones. This experience gave her unique insight into both sides of the healthcare system—both as a caregiver and a grieving family member.

The pandemic shed light on the brokenness of the healthcare system and its lack of support for providers, leaving many, including Whitney, burned out and grieving without the chance to process their emotions.

In reflecting on her time as a physician, Whitney speaks about the uncomfortable reality that death is often viewed as a failure in the medical field, even though it’s inevitable. She notes how many physicians, especially oncologists, avoid discussing dying with patients, opting instead to present treatment options, even when they may not be curative. This discomfort creates a communication gap, leaving patients without the full picture of their prognosis.

Whitney also touches on the cultural differences between how death is handled in the U.S. versus other areas of the world, where conversations about end-of-life care are more normalized. 

She emphasizes the importance of preventive conversations about death, including advanced healthcare directives, and how much easier those difficult moments could be if people planned ahead.

She also shares with us her personal experiences helping to get her Chinese Grandmother the end of life care she needed while honoring her cultural heritage.  

Throughout her career, both as a physician and now as a coach, Whitney’s experiences underscore the need for open, honest conversations about death and the systemic issues within healthcare that hinder them.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/@WhitneyChew

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whitneychew91@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Whitney: We need to have a very different conversation about like, death is inevitable. 

Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects.

[00:00:23] I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. 

In this episode, I talk with Whitney Chew, a former physician turned social media coach for entrepreneurs. Originally from California and now living in New York, Whitney shares her journey through a pandemic residency, witnessing both personal and professional losses.

[00:00:47] That ultimately reshaped her career path. She discusses the challenges she faced in medicine from lack of emotional support for healthcare providers to the reality that death is often seen as a failure rather than an inevitable part of life. Whitney reflects on her initial draw to palliative care and the lessons she learned about the importance of dignified, open conversations around death.

[00:01:09] Conversations that are often avoided in American healthcare. Her insights underscore the need for a cultural shift. Highlighting how preventative planning like advanced healthcare directives could ease these difficult moments for families and patients. Thank you for joining us for this conversation.

[00:01:25] Welcome to the podcast, Whitney. Thank you so much for coming on today. Can you start us off? Just tell us a little bit about yourself if you want to share where you're from, how old you are, whatever it is you want to share with us. 

[00:01:36] Whitney: So yeah, thanks for having me. Born and raised in California. I recently moved to New York.

[00:01:41] I was a physician. I finished residency around the time of the pandemic. And less than a year after that, I realized like being a physician wasn't, wasn't in the cards for me. During, during the pandemic, lots of death and dying. From the perspective of me as a physician, after I graduated residency, lots of personal experience in terms of loved one dying.

[00:02:04] That was a first for me. So that was interesting to experience on both sides, interacting with the healthcare system that way. Your podcast is really interesting to me because the way that I talked about death of a physician was eye opening for me, especially All the different ways different cultures handle it.

[00:02:24] I was very interested in becoming a palliative care physician because I was very passionate about advocating for good end of life experiences that can be really hard for many reasons that we can talk about, so. 

[00:02:35] Jill: Wonderful. I now volunteer at two hospitals with palliative care. Physicians and nurse practitioners and social workers.

[00:02:44] It was after the pandemic and the stories they've told me about what it was like during the pandemic is, it really disturbs me for many reasons, partially because I'm afraid of what's going to happen if we go through something like this again, because it was such a strain on the healthcare system and on the doctors and nurses, anything you want to share about that experience, I would love to hear.

[00:03:08] But what do you do now? If you left being a physician, what's your transition? What did you end up moving on to? 

[00:03:14] Whitney: Yeah, great question. So now I coach entrepreneurs under social media problems. So actually it's funny during residency, during COVID, I really needed an outlet that was outside of COVID, outside of medicine.

[00:03:31] I started a YouTube channel. She kind of Have a creative outlet, allow my brain to think about something else and think differently and connect with people outside of medicine. Just cause during that time, there was a lot of burnout. I've been doing YouTube for three years. And now since I transitioned into coaching.

[00:03:49] and delved into the entrepreneurship world. I realized that my skills can really help people who are trying to increase their online presence. So that's what I do now. It's very different. It's very fun. 

[00:04:01] Jill: It is very different. And I will for sure link to your YouTube channel in the show notes because I'm sure there's going to be people listening.

[00:04:06] They're gonna be like, I want to check it out. So it'll be in the show notes. So you could easily find it. That's awesome. I can understand in some ways why going through residency, especially during that time, if it's not for you, it would have really been clear that that is not the path for you. Yeah. It's funny you say 

[00:04:25] Whitney: that.

[00:04:26] If it weren't for the pandemic, I'd probably still be a physician. I'd probably do palliative care or intensive care. I really enjoyed both of those. But you're exactly right. I think the pandemic really shone light on how broken the health care system is and how little the health care system cares about its patients.

[00:04:42] Healthcare providers, and to be honest with you, I think a lot of them haven't had time to sit and process the grief. They're still going, right? I think a lot of people during the pandemic had time to sit at home. Yes, there were stresses with that, but there was also space for reflection about what's important in life.

[00:05:01] What does dying mean? What do I want to spend my life doing? People know how Pearson never got that. They never got to recover from their burnout. They probably have felt a lot of grief, trauma, all of that, that, uh, they're still carrying with them. So I left. It's not that I want everyone to leave. They're quite the opposite.

[00:05:20] At the same time, I do worry about the type of care that our patients can receive, receive from their loved ones. healthcare providers that haven't been able to process and get to a good headspace, because when healthcare providers are burnt out, everyone suffers, right? 

[00:05:37] Jill: Yeah, it's true. And it's such an interesting space because I came from outside of healthcare, and I'm not healthcare as a death doula, but I'm seeing it in a different way than I've ever seen it before.

[00:05:50] I was surprised at how much doctors, especially, but even nurses, are just not. Really okay with death and how they're not prepared to talk to people about their death It's like I really thought they would be great at it because they deal with it all the time And so I can imagine that adding even more to the stress and the anxiety During the pandemic of so many people they couldn't save them.

[00:06:17] It didn't matter what you did People were dying. And so that adds to that stress and burnout. I could see why it would be so traumatic for people in health care. 

[00:06:27] Whitney: It's also a really interesting culture in health care where death is seen as a failure on the part of the providers, which, Inspiring the truth, right?

[00:06:37] Like it's an inevitability. But as physicians, To become a physician, you have to start thinking about it in your teens, at least your early 20s. These are hugely formative years. And to make it to a point where you can be a physician, these are high performers, high achievers, straight A students, all these leadership roles, just never allowed to fail.

[00:06:59] And then you go into our training system where you're not supposed to make mistakes because mistakes could mean life or death, right? Like we can talk about how true that is, but that's just kind of the mentality that we are given. And so, for example, A lot of physicians are just really interested in medicine, right?

[00:07:17] The example I like to talk about is how uncomfortable oncologists are. We're talking about dying, right? You're a cancer specialist. Death is something you need to talk about. But again, the first thing they do is like, here are all the treatment options you can explore, even if they're not curative. And they, they dance around the idea of like, prognosis, which understandably, so there are a lot of physicians who've been burned by giving a patient, you know, like estimated like three months and then they ended up looking longer and then they was trust in their health care providers on the health care system.

[00:07:50] It's almost like if we don't try, then we're failing. I think we need to have a very different conversation about like, that's inevitable. Hey, here's this new thing that popped up. That might shorten the time you thought you had. And what does that mean for you? What do you want to do with that? It's almost like patients understandably still kind of take the cues from physicians.

[00:08:13] But physicians aren't taking all the options out there because they're uncomfortable with that themselves. It's not fair to the patient. 

[00:08:19] Jill: Yeah, it's certainly not an easy problem to fix because I, you know, there was definitely times when I I feel frustrated with doctors in the healthcare system over not talking to people more openly and honestly, but then also working with the public and trying to talk to people about death.

[00:08:39] I've literally had people say, Oh, what do you do? And I'm like, I'm a death doula. And they turn around and run away from me. So it's like we have a problem on both ends in that people don't want to talk about their death. They don't want to hear about it. They only want to hear the positive things, how we're going to fight.

[00:08:56] And so it puts the doctors in this really uncomfortable position where they're still just humans. They're trying to have this conversation and be honest with somebody that's looking them in the face being like, but what do you mean you're giving up on me? What do you mean you can't save me? I don't know the answer to that.

[00:09:11] That's why I have a podcast. Why I try to talk to a lot of people and get. These conversations out into the public to normalize it a little bit more to allow people to understand that, yes, we are all going to die at some point. And no, I'm still not happy about the fact that I might die sooner than later, but the reality is it is going to happen at some point and pretending that that's not the truth.

[00:09:38] just stops me from actually living my life. I really have come to believe that accepting the fact that we will die is actually what allows us to live life, but a lot of people don't want to think about it and they don't want to talk about it because they're out of practice. If you've lived your entire life not talking about it, Especially in American culture, in Western societies, we don't want to talk about it.

[00:10:02] We put it behind closed doors, people don't see it. When we have to think about it, when we have to face it, of course it feels overwhelming because we've never done it. When I'm like, hey, let's talk about your dad or a doctor says it to them. People are like, nope, not going there. I'm just going to shut down completely.

[00:10:19] There has to be a way that we can do that a little bit better between all of us, right? 

[00:10:25] Whitney: Yeah, you're so right. It's so interesting. It's because, honestly, I think the root of it is the American culture, right? Even if the doctor was interested in talking about it, then maybe the patient's not interested in talking about it.

[00:10:36] Maybe the patient's interested in talking about what a doctor might be. It's like, most of the time, both don't want to talk about it, right? How are you going to have a conversation? I believe in Europe, an advanced health care directive is very normal at age eight fluids, far from the case here. Most of the time, people don't even hear the term advanced health care directive until they're in the hospital and they're getting this life changing diagnosis for the first time.

[00:11:01] And this was the first time they've had to talk about death. Yeah. And then definitely we can talk about how family ties into all of it. The hardest Part of caring for someone who's terminally ill, deeply dying in the ICU is perhaps this patient literally cannot verbalize to themselves what they want.

[00:11:21] And now all of a sudden we are tasked to find our closest representatives, whether it's a spouse, kids. relative. And it's always interesting, especially if they've been estranged for a while, who makes the decisions, how do they all come to agreement. Usually no one's in agreement and you try to make it about the patient.

[00:11:41] The fact of the matter is everyone has their own baggage around death and everyone's trying to rekindle relationships all of a sudden now that they're faced with death and trying to right maybe the wrongs that have been done in the past. In order to do that, they need extra time, right? They need the person to recover.

[00:11:57] So that they can have those conversations, have all that healing, that forgiveness. Unfortunately, sometimes that means making the patient suffer and still not getting the outcome they want. So I get very passionate when those types of situations come up. And so the best, we all know the best medicine is preventative.

[00:12:15] If we all at age 18, talking about it, thinking about it, start writing our own advanced healthcare directive, then it can be a lot easier. It's a cultural shift, I think. 

[00:12:25] Jill: Yeah, because so many people that I talk to about, do you have your health care directives done? They're like, no, I'm not dying. I'm not old.

[00:12:32] I don't need to do that yet. Especially people my age where I'm 45. I have kids. I'm like, you need this for real. You need to have this. And it seems that the best thing that convinces people they should do that. is to explain that it's not even really for them. It's for their family. It's a gift that you give to your family so that when it's time for them to make those decisions, they know what you want.

[00:12:59] They're not having to answer questions to physicians that are saying, well, did they want this, this, and this? And you're like, I have no idea. First off, I don't know what those things are. I don't know if they wanted them or didn't want them. Plus, again, like you pointed out, I'm also trying to deal with the fact that I wish I would have had this conversation with them and made amends about an argument we had ten years ago.

[00:13:19] So I'm still processing all of that while you're asking me do they want to be innovated when I don't even understand what that means. And so it's really something that we give to our Loved ones, whoever it is that's going to have to make those decisions, because so many people will be like, well, I don't care when I'm dying.

[00:13:35] I don't care what happens to me. And it's like, okay, maybe you don't care, but the people around you do. Working in hospitals, I get to see a lot of interesting stuff. It's really hard. on physicians and nurses, especially if somebody's young and there's the disagreement of like, are they old enough to make these decisions?

[00:13:52] Are they old enough to sign a DNR, which is like the do not resuscitate, you know, it causes so much stress and anxiety on everybody, not just the person that's signing the DNR. potentially dying, not just their family, but also the staff that's trying to take care of them and give them the best care needed, when it's like, we don't know what they want.

[00:14:14] We don't know what they need. Again, it's something that I think you're right, the biggest shift needs to happen on a grander scale within the culture. And then it'll be Easier for all of us, but how do we make that ship? That's the big question. Like how do we actually get people To shift into a more and I don't even want to use death positive That term has its place right death honest death awareness, right being just open to death Right that the fact that we are all going to die.

[00:14:46] So like let's just talk about it. Let's just plan for it How do we do that? 

[00:14:51] Whitney: Death neutral, death accepting. 

[00:14:53] Jill: Yeah. Uh, 

[00:14:53] Whitney: maybe. Kind of similar to what you said, witnessing your loved one go through the death and dying process within the healthcare system, seeing how stressful it was for you, and then not wanting to burden your loved ones with that, and then start doing the advanced healthcare directive, I think.

[00:15:11] Jill: Yeah, but you also would think that there would be people that would just take our word for it. Like, don't wait until you have to go through, potentially, a nightmare. Right? Because it can be really bad. It doesn't have to be really bad, but it can be really bad. So why wait until you have to go through it?

[00:15:25] Just like, trust those of us that are trying to see you prevent yourself from going through that suffering. 

[00:15:31] Whitney: Because it's human nature to not change until the discomfort is unbearable. That's just like, we are a fact in a way. Why would I choose to think about this? Things are great. Life's great once you can make any changes.

[00:15:45] Unless 

[00:15:46] Jill: you legalize it, of course. 

[00:15:47] Whitney: Like shove it down their throats. 

[00:15:48] Jill: And then there's always going to be the people that still will dig their heels in even more. 

[00:15:54] Whitney: Of course. 

[00:15:54] Jill: I think we will get there with time, like a lot of things. It's great that things don't change quickly, culturally. Think about how bad things could change quickly.

[00:16:05] If things happen fast, so it's great that it doesn't happen quickly. And I think we are starting to move in that direction of just being more death accepting within our communities and culturally, but it's so weird too, because we're so obsessed with death and dying in movies. Even now, like, I feel like every movie or TV show, it's, like, so, like, post apocalyptic.

[00:16:28] Like, the worst thing ever happened, and this is how we're gonna try to come back from it. And I'm like, I don't need to see more of this. But that's obviously what people want to see, because that's what they watch, right? The people watching the, you know, action movies of people being shot and killed and things blowing up and like all these things, but yet to talk about the realities of it we're like, nope, not going to do it.

[00:16:52] So I just find that so weird. 

[00:16:54] Whitney: That invention is the internet. Like we're fascinated by the morbid. Maybe it's a distraction. You're not thinking about the one else who's like death and suffering and not being by your own. 

[00:17:03] Jill: Yeah, maybe. No idea. So you were in a hospital when you did your residency, yeah, and what was the biggest thing that you think was the most difficult for the healthcare system?

[00:17:16] Was it the amount of people? Was it the lack of staff? What was it that you saw being right in it while it was going on? 

[00:17:25] Whitney: So, I think the biggest thing was probably We just didn't know what was going on as it was unfolding, right? We were slightly behind Europe, which was helpful in some way. It was actually really interesting.

[00:17:37] Typically medicine is supposed to be very evidence based, years of research before we implement anything into real life. But this was such a fast moving incident. In fact, a lot of medical knowledge was being dispersed through Twitter, which was kind of cool. There are definitely some pros to the pandemic, right?

[00:17:56] People always talk about how quickly the vaccine was developed. But yeah, even though there was a lot of practices that weren't, like, that hadn't gone through rigorous study, we were learning a lot from our European counterparts. But just the fact that things are changing so quickly, there was always a sense of unease.

[00:18:13] Will there be a PPE shortage? That's personal protective equipment. And so all the gowns, masks, gloves that you, you all saw. And I'm like, it's not going to be enough. The protocols were changing every week. So it's like, okay, how are we isolating patients? Which patients are we putting together? Who sees COVID patients?

[00:18:31] Who doesn't? There was so much to learn as a resident, the pure medicine itself, and constantly having to update the protocol nuances and these new treatments. Changes. And then, of course, there's the fear, right? A lot of healthcare providers are like, yeah, I have to take care of these COVID patients, but also what if I get sick?

[00:18:52] I live with my partner. I live with my aging parents. I live with my kids. What if I bring it home? So a lot of healthcare providers ended up staying at hotels because they didn't want to take it home. And so they're just like, you know, seeing illness death all day and they couldn't go home and like reconnect with their families.

[00:19:10] They're also seeing everyone else gets to like stay at home and like bake bread and like, I'm just here working extra shift, you know? And then when, when you contracted you felt guilty, right? You felt guilty that like, I know I wasn't supposed to, well, a lot of healthcare providers actually contracted in our hospital, contracted COVID by having lunch together during their breaks, which it's kind of tough, right?

[00:19:37] A lot of learning happens during lunch, but also a lot of stress relief and bonding happens during lunch. So we weren't allowed to do that either. And then, like I said, the guilt associated with, well, I've contracted COVID. Does that make me irresponsible? I tell my patient not to engage in irresponsible activity.

[00:19:54] But then also the guilt of, well, now my burnt out colleagues have to cover for me. And then also the guilt of, But I get two weeks off. This is really nice. I really needed this. There's just a lot to process. I distinctly remember during my third year in, in our training, when we worked in the ICU, I enjoyed the ICU, but they were asking a lot of people to volunteer for more shifts.

[00:20:17] I remember being on an ICU shift and our shifts are 30 hours long. You start at 1 a. m. one day and go to the All the way through 11 a. m. the next day, my grandma was in the hospital at a time, a different hospital. I was going through this staying up for my shift working nights and then at 11 a. m. like leaving the hospital and that's when you're supposed to sleep.

[00:20:40] But I would be awake trying to handle my grandma's health care situation at her hospital with her doctors. And so I barely got any sleep. The normal thing to do would be to call in sick, right? And say, Can someone cover for me? Like, I need to handle this. But healthcare providers are naturally very compassionate and self sacrificing.

[00:21:01] And I didn't want to burden someone else with a 30 hour shift or God knows how long. So I just sucked it up. And I know I wasn't the only one who did that kind of stuff. There was a lot. That was a lot during that time. 

[00:21:14] Jill: And so your grandmother, did she end up dying after that illness? Is that one of the people that you lost?

[00:21:22] Whitney: No, she was just. She had normal, quote unquote, normal, like, stuff that all people go through, like she fell, she broke her hip, they had surgery, but then she also has a complicated cardiac and renal issues. It was like transitioning her from peritoneal dialysis to hemodialysis, which is a lot more dangerous for someone with cardiac issues.

[00:21:44] So she's a complicated patient and Her hair, I just wanted to make sure was okay. She passed away a few months ago. That was a really interesting experience because I was the one that initiated the, we need to talk to palliative care, even though nothing seemed glaringly wrong in this hospitalization, just of the trajectory that I'd seen things going.

[00:22:08] I was like her recovery, her baseline is just not close to anywhere. That I would say would be a good quality of life for the grandma that I knew and I grew up with my grandma in our family restaurant. So I was pretty close with her. So now I do think that's also really interesting, right? Being a granddaughter, but also being the physician in the family and trying to navigate all of the dynamics between the aunts and uncles and parents and grandpa.

[00:22:36] Jill: Because yes, it's hard to turn off your professional role and just be the granddaughter. But then. People are going to look to you like you're the expert in all of this, but then you're also to like aunts and uncles. You're also still little Whitney. They still see you as like the little kid. So there's still going to be some of that.

[00:22:54] Well, what do you know? You're just a kid. I could imagine that must have been really interesting to navigate as just a person, right? All those different roles. 

[00:23:04] Whitney: Of course, I was trained in the American health care system and with palliative care, I would, I will say there is to some degree some paternalism in how we help patients through the dying process, which I actually have changed my mind, changed my opinion on.

[00:23:22] Used to be very patient autonomy first, but as much as we try to provide patients enough information to make an informed decision, I think the reality is that we've just seen death and dying and the process so much more that it's hard to convey all that into someone who's navigating for the first time.

[00:23:44] Essentially, I just don't know how well informed someone can decision can be unless they've seen a lot of death and dying. And so I was wrestling with that when I was talking to the palliative care team with my grandma because in Eastern cultures, first of all, the patient themselves. Like elders don't really talk about death and dying.

[00:24:04] They usually hand off responsibility to their adult children. The adult children usually make the decisions without consulting with the parents. And that's very normal. Whereas in Western medicine, we're like, oh, well, that's patient autonomy. You shouldn't. You shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be making decisions.

[00:24:19] I want to hear it from the patient themselves, but a lot of times the patient doesn't want to talk about it and that's very normal and okay for them, but also understanding that these adult children have their own baggage. So it was an interesting discussion to have with the palliative care doc on, I'm really wrestling with how do I not impose my Western beliefs on my family?

[00:24:41] She's just like, unfortunately, the reality of the matter is your grandma, it is, it's being treated in a hospital in the Western health care system. To some extent you're not going to be able to completely escape from Western ideals. So how do you make the best decision that you can given the constraints that you have?

[00:25:01] And that was kind of helpful. 

[00:25:04] Jill: Where was your grandmother from? 

[00:25:05] Whitney: Vietnam. 

[00:25:06] Jill: So she was born there and then she moved to America or is that where her family of origin's from? 

[00:25:12] Whitney: It's complicated, like we're Chinese. It's an interesting cultural mix of Chinese and Vietnamese cultures because there was a huge group of Chinese people who had emigrated to Vietnam when the Vietnam War started.

[00:25:25] My grandma and grandpa and their kids also escaped from Vietnam into a refugee camp in Malaysia. before they made it to the States. For the most part, like the culture, even with like Chinese, Vietnamese, there's a lot of overlap, I would say. Yeah. 

[00:25:41] Jill: Yeah. So that's an interesting point that I hadn't really thought about.

[00:25:45] I know that people from different cultures have different ways of dealing with death. Sometimes it is more on the adult children and sometimes nobody talks about But this idea of how do we honor somebody's cultural beliefs and way of doing things within a healthcare system that is not set up that way, finding that balance is really tricky.

[00:26:08] How did you end up doing it? Was there anything that you found that helped within your family system? 

[00:26:15] Whitney: I'll say this part first, because I think this is really interesting as well, because it's news to me. Apparently, some people in our culture believe that suffering in the death and dying process is almost like karmic repentance.

[00:26:27] So were I to talk to my grandma about like grandma, and I've tried before, it was a very interesting conversation. You would ask, do you want to be intubated? Do you want this tube in your throat? Do you want people poking at you? Do you want to be in the hospital all the time? Do you want these things?

[00:26:44] She'll be like, no, no, no, no. But then saying, okay, So you understand, though, that means that your life will be shorter, potentially. And it's like, no, I don't cut my life short. And it's like, okay, well, it seems like you're suffering. Then it'll go into the, well, then I'm paying back for mistakes I've made in past lives or whatever.

[00:27:05] Which is really hard to talk to someone about, right? Like they truly believe this is what they deserve. How can you say they're wrong, right? Like your beliefs are silly or whatever label that I want to put on it. I don't have an answer for like, how do you navigate that, but it's just like, keep in mind that just because someone believes they are meant to suffer, there can be some peace and acceptance around that, if that makes sense.

[00:27:32] And who are we to say that's a wrong perspective? 

[00:27:34] Jill: Yeah, I have actually heard of that. I haven't. Talk to anybody personally, but I have actually heard of that. Some people believe that the suffering at the end of life kind of does something to their karma. So when they get reincarnated, some of their karma is like, it was like burned off so that they get reincarnated into a better reincarnation, which, yeah, you're right.

[00:27:53] Like how, you know, And I feel that way about a lot of religious beliefs that it brings people a sense of peace and comfort at the end of life, whether it's that idea of like, well, it's okay that I'm in pain right now, because that means I'll get reincarnated into a better life, or I'm going to transition into heaven, or whatever it is, if it brings people Peace and comfort for an experience that most of us will only do it once, even if there are some people that have their near death experiences where they die and they come back.

[00:28:22] Most of us are only going to go through this once. And no matter how prepared we are, there's still going to be some fear and anxiety about it. So if your religious beliefs bring you a sense of peace and comfort, then yeah, for sure. Like who am I to judge it or question or tell you that it's wrong. I find that really interesting though, the things that people.

[00:28:42] believe spiritually when it comes time to face the fact that their life is ending, because it is very personal. Totally. So you said you did have a couple of deaths in the last year navigating that from the other end of the health care system. Did that change your perspective on the health care system at all?

[00:29:03] How did that affect you personally? 

[00:29:06] Whitney: So yes, as a physician, I was a hospitalist, meaning I would take care of So some people go to the ER and they get discharged home. Some people go to the ER and they have to be admitted to the hospital for a few days, maybe a few weeks, because they need extra care that can only be done in the hospital.

[00:29:24] If they were admitted to the hospital, I was taking care of them. As a healthcare provider, when I took care of patients who were dying, once they transitioned to comfort care, meaning we're focusing on making comfortable at the end of your life, there's a lot less engagement. On the physician's end, at least from the hospitalist perspective, it's almost like you hand over responsibility to the power of care team and do whatever they say because they're the experts.

[00:29:51] But. Well, a lot of it falls on the nurses as well, right? They're the ones at the bedside the most. They're the ones seeing the patient the most. And they are making a lot of the decisions on their own. Once they're just put in the order, it's like, okay, as meeting. So now it's up to the nurse to sit there and be like, Does the patient look uncomfortable?

[00:30:11] Should I give them another dose? I just didn't realize how little credit we were giving to our nurses. It's scary. Some of these medications that you're giving at end of life can end someone's life, right? Depending on how quickly you give it, how many doses you're giving me through all that. And so it was a humbling experience being on the other side where.

[00:30:30] We took our loved ones home and we were the one administering the medications. We're the one witnessing the dying process. And we're so close to the action. Like we're literally the one putting the medication in our loved one's mouth. That level of responsibility for like, You know, I want to make them comfortable, but at the same time, I don't want to overdo it.

[00:30:51] Like, what if I kill them? As much support as palliative and hospice provides to patients and their families, that level of responsibility is something I think a lot of people are not prepared for. There needs to be more help in hospice, to be honest with you. Do we have enough resources for that?

[00:31:09] Probably not. But if we were to think of an ideal situation where we really help, because at that point, the patient is actively dying. The patient's still unaware, right? Now you're more taking care of a family who's witnessing this and whose perceptions of death are being formed by this experience. They need support because if I've had that experience with hospice, then I might tell my kids I never want to go on hospice.

[00:31:35] Jill: A lot of people, unfortunately, have had bad experiences with hospice. A lot of people have had great experiences as well. I find a lot of death doulas get into this work either because they had a great experience with hospice, which was my case. Then there's also other people that are like, no, I had a terrible experience with hospice, which is why I realized that they need more help.

[00:31:55] And so that's why I got into this work. 

[00:31:57] Whitney: It's important work. I have changed my opinion on whether or not hospice Patients should die in their own home. That was also an interesting experience. I think a lot of cultures are comfortable with their loved one dying at home. Our family was nervous about that as well.

[00:32:14] I used to fight strongly for our patients to go home and be comfortable in their own space. After a certain point, when the consciousness is not there, I do think patients get better care at a facility. And this is like a huge blanket statement, it's not always true, and of course depending on the facility itself, but like the, the employees working there, the healthcare workers, they're dealing with death and dying so much, like they are very familiar with the symptoms and how to treat them, I do think they, that patient can get better care.

[00:32:44] in a facility. I've experienced this twice now, and I actually think it'd be a great model where when the patient is still kind of with it enough to experience being at home, take them home. But once they're in the actively dying process, take them to a facility just to save the family from experiencing the potential horrors, right?

[00:33:04] Like death rattle. Oh my gosh. The first time I experienced that it was traumatizing. And then it's also better for the patient. 

[00:33:10] Jill: Yeah. And it's hard because there's not, at least in New Jersey. There's not a lot of hospice care facilities, you know, like there's not a whole lot of options because yeah, I'm with you and that I used to and I still feel that if that's the best choice for you, then yes, care at home for sure, but it is, you know, I had the misconception hospice was going to come in and they were going to help people.

[00:33:35] Take care of my grandma. And then all of a sudden I was like, Oh, that's an hour. Once every other day. This is, this is me. This is all me. Yeah. And I had no idea what I was doing. So yes, we definitely have a little ways to go. End of life's care. But it's okay, because I think we will get there. All right. We are just about at our time to wrap up.

[00:33:59] We already talked a little bit. You do have a YouTube channel. If people want to reach out to you, if they want to find you, what's the best way for them to find you? 

[00:34:06] Whitney: Yeah, if you Google my name, Whitney H. Du, C H E W, you'll probably find my YouTube channel or my Instagram. Feel free to reach out. If you want to email me, that's probably the best way to get in direct contact with me.

[00:34:18] My email is whitneychu91 at gmail. 

[00:34:21] Jill: Awesome. And I will put that right in the show notes so people can easily find in your YouTube, your Instagram and email. Thank you so much, Whitney, for coming on. I feel like there's so many other things we could have kept talking about, so maybe we could do this again, but thank you.

[00:34:35] I appreciate it. 

[00:34:36] Whitney: Thank you. It was a very necessary 

[00:34:38] Jill: conversation. I love that you do this. In my next episode, I talk with Nyla Francis, a grief coach, poet, and interfaith minister. Nyla shares her journey from journalism to founding Salt Trails, a collective in Philadelphia that's creating community grief rituals.

[00:34:57] to help others honor and process grief in safe, judgment free spaces. She talks about her signature workshop, Writing the Broken Heart, where poetry and journaling allow participants to dive into deep emotions. Nyle explains that grief, while often feared, can bring a profound sense of aliveness when fully embraced.

[00:35:18] She reflects on her healing journey, describing how confronting grief has aligned her more deeply with herself and life itself. Naila encourages listeners to make space for their grief, offering compassion and acceptance to themselves without pressure, and letting creative expression naturally emerge as a path to self discovery and healing.

[00:35:38] If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others.

[00:35:55] The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, Every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can.

[00:36:12] You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo. If you prefer to make a one time contribution, thank you. And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of seeing death clearly.