David Downie's Journey From HIV Nurse to End of Life Patient Part 2

In this episode, David Downie shares his profound journey, reflecting on his life and health as he nears the end of his time. Now in his 70s, he opens up about his long battle with heart issues, including multiple valve surgeries, and the challenges he's faced in managing his condition. 

David candidly discusses the reality of doctors losing interest when patients can no longer be "fixed." He explains his decision to stop pursuing further treatments, choosing instead to focus on comfort through palliative care, which has helped him manage pain and improve his quality of life.

David reveals how meditation and mindfulness play a crucial role in his day-to-day existence, allowing him to navigate physical and emotional pain. He emphasizes the importance of being fully present in life, even as his health declines. 

Though he remains alert and grounded, David expresses the relief that comes from accepting his fate, despite the occasional fear that creeps in. His perspective on death is shaped by his Buddhist beliefs, as he contemplates the opportunity to work through his karma as the end draws near.

David touches on the fears that come with dying alone, particularly the logistical challenges he may face as his condition worsens. He shares his concerns about the limitations of hospice care and how he's learned to take each day as it comes, without becoming overwhelmed by future uncertainties. 

The episode also highlights the power of community, with a small group of friends committed to being by his side as he approaches death, ensuring he won't be alone in his final moments.

Through this conversation, David's story offers valuable insights into living and dying with dignity. His reflections on fear, suffering, and the inevitability of death encourage listeners to confront their own anxieties and to embrace life with openness and intention.

To follow along with David on his end of life journey, check out his YouTube channel linked below. 

https://www.youtube.com/@daviddownie5594

Transcript

[00:00:00] David: Sometimes I still get scared, but mostly I'm not. Mostly I just feel really fortunate to have lived the life I've lived and lived this long. And now I get to watch it end. 

[00:00:10] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach here on my show. I have conversations with guests.

[00:00:19] that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode, I finish my conversation with David Downie, who shares his deeply personal journey as he nears the end of life.

[00:00:45] David opens up about his long battle with heart issues and the decision to stop pursuing medical treatments, choosing palliative care to improve his quality of life. We discuss the reality of doctors losing interest when patients can no longer be fixed and the comfort David has found in meditation and mindfulness.

[00:01:04] His Buddhist practices shape his perspective on death, offering him relief and acceptance. Despite still having some occasional fear. David also shares his concerns about dying alone and the logistical challenges that may arise, but he finds solace in a supportive community committed to being by his side.

[00:01:22] His reflections on life, death, fear, and suffering offer listeners profound insights into confronting their own mortality, embracing life with intention and dignity. for joining us for this conversation. Now 

[00:01:36] David: in this term 70. Which, considering my heart condition, is, it's unthinkable to me that I turned 70.

[00:01:44] When I was born, my parents said he might live till he's 12. Wow. And without the surgeries I had, I thought I wouldn't have lived past 12. I always thought in my life, I'm gonna die like any minute. And then when I didn't, and I didn't because of the surgeries. And I did take care of myself in between those times.

[00:02:00] I've had two valves changed, like a car, I had two valves. And that's kind of what it's like, you're like a machine now. I realized about a year ago, this isn't going away, I'm not getting better, I'm getting worse. And you know what? I found out too, when you don't get better, The doctors who are trying to get you better have no interest and they lose interest in you or they get frustrated.

[00:02:22] I don't know what they get, but it's clear to me that they're not that interested. Of specialists, like I've done everything I can do. So I'm like, okay, then I realized that. So I won't be coming back to you. So I've cut a lot of them out because they can't do anything for me. I realize that now. But the way a lot of them deal with it is not good.

[00:02:41] So a lot of doctors still, when somebody's not going to get better and they're going to die, uh, a lot of doctors don't like that because their training is, I'm going to fix you. Let me try this. I'm going to try this. I'm going to try this. I'm going to try it all until you die. So I thought I'm not going to live the rest of my life like this, whatever's left.

[00:03:00] I just decided I'm not going to get any more treatment of any sort. I mean, aside from the medications I have to take to be comfortable. Because if I stopped my heart failure medicines now, I would drown in my own fluids and I don't really want to do that. It's not the way I want to go. If I stopped the arthritis medication, I would be in pain and I don't want that either.

[00:03:20] So I decided, and I got a palliative care doctor who has been wonderful. And she's been really helping me quite a bit and she's put me back on pain medicine because I asked her to. I don't want to go out of this life just fighting pain. I meditate and that's great, but I still have pain. A comfortable pain and debilitating pain.

[00:03:39] And I want to be able to dysfunction as well as I can for as long as I can. I'm not one to take more than I'm prescribed. I don't want to be floating in air. I want to be alert and go through all of this awake. my life every day. I take it as it's prescribed but of course I do need it to live the kind of life I want to live.

[00:03:59] Sometimes I'll notice I got on that medical marijuana program and I tried the tincture stuff but it puts me in another planet. I don't want to be on another planet. I want to be here awake and alert and know what's going on. 

[00:04:13] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:04:13] David: And have some, my mind be able to focus somewhat. So that's kind of where things are at with me at this point.

[00:04:20] My last birthday was last November, I was turning 70. And I was afraid I wasn't going to make it because I was having a rough time. And she said, Oh, I think you're going to make it. I think you'll make your birthday. So I did. I made my birthday and have continually gotten, it's good. There's no plateauing now.

[00:04:37] It's all downhill. Sometimes it's faster and sometimes it's slower. slows a bit. I can tell from even week to week, the changes that are going on. And I asked her maybe a month ago, six weeks ago now, I said, brought it up again. I said, how long, I know you don't like to give things like this, but knowing where I'm at now, what's your estimate on how much time I have left to live?

[00:04:59] And she, you know, they all hate to say it because, and I understand they don't know. And she said, well, we're not talking years. that I have left to live. And she said, but we're not talking days or weeks. Okay. The only thing that's left is months. And so I said, okay, well, I'll tell you what I think. And she said, okay.

[00:05:17] And I said, whenever my birthday is in November, so this must have been around May or early June. Cause I said, I don't think I'll be surprised if I make my next birthday. Which would have been about six months, you know, when I talked to her and she said, that could be so I don't take that as written in stone, but it gives me something like, I don't know, it helps me to relax if that makes any sense with what's going on, because now when I feel worse than I did last week, I'm just going, Oh, it's just that not just this, but it's this.

[00:05:49] And sometimes I get still scared, but mostly I'm not. But they'll be like the other day my heart started beating really fast out of nowhere which I get tachycardia and sometimes I get ventricular tachycardia which is you can't live with it. I have a defibrillator which I actually had turned off because I don't want to get shocked you know.

[00:06:06] I said oh my god this is it. 

[00:06:10] Jill: But it wasn't it, because 

[00:06:11] David: you're still here with 

[00:06:11] Jill: me. 

[00:06:12] David: And I just lay there and okay, well, if it is, just relax and see what happens. And then it stopped and that went away. But I still, you know, when something happens, I'm like, Oh my God, but mostly I just feel really fortunate to have lived the life I've lived and live this long, which on a lot of levels is amazing that I lived through the stuff I lived through and the HIV, all of that or that I lived through.

[00:06:38] We all, a lot of us live through, and now I get to watch it end. And there's something special about that. I know that sounds, well to you it probably doesn't sound crazy at all, but to a lot of people, believe me, it's crazy. 

[00:06:51] Jill: Oh I know, a lot of stuff I say sounds crazy to them too, so I get it. 

[00:06:55] David: I just feel really fortunate to be able to.

[00:06:57] And you know, my fears isn't dying. My fears are mostly, I think what I talked to you the other day about. Logistics, like when I can't get out of bed anymore. If it comes to that, what am I going to do? I live alone and what am I going to do? And hospice doesn't come and live with you. You can't go and live at hospice anymore.

[00:07:15] Those. Unless it's for a specific reason for a specific time. Yeah. Thank you, Medicare. Those logistics are my issues that I don't lose a lot of sleep over, but I do worry sometimes. Like now I could walk him back and forth from the store and then that would be the end of my day. Now I can walk to the store and now I have to take a bus back.

[00:07:35] That's a significant change. And it'll soon come that I'll have to take a bus both ways. And it may come that I can't do it at all. And that's when I start thinking, what am I going to do? So, like, talking to you and some other people, it's building up some kind of support as it's needed. And then that could just drop dead, you know?

[00:07:53] Jill: Good, for sure. I mean, any of us could at any point. But you're right, with your heart. You definitely could just drop dead. And in some ways, I mean, 

[00:08:01] David: it'd be ideal. Or I could go to sleep, get VTAC and never wake up. 

[00:08:04] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:08:05] David: You know, all those worries about services I might never need. So I try not to get too into it or worried about it.

[00:08:12] Just try to take it a day at a time. But as you have said, Nirvana. 

[00:08:15] Jill: I'm sure there's people that are listening that have some background in Buddhism. But one of the things that we talk about in Buddhism is the Sangha, which is the community. That's how I got to learn a little bit about yourself. story because our sangha has a group that we are still forming.

[00:08:30] We're kind of new in this group, but part of the purpose in the group is to take care of our sangha, to take care of our members when they need something. That's when somebody said to me, you know, David, he was mentioning that he does not have much longer to live and he might need some help. Our sangha is going to support you as best as we can.

[00:08:50] And that's part of the work that you and I are doing together. But when you mentioned your story. about working as a nurse during that height of HIV and AIDS and the misunderstandings and the fear and the lack of support and all of that. I thought people need to hear this. This is part of your legacy that you're leaving behind.

[00:09:10] I don't mean this on an ego way, right? Because again, there's still that Buddhist part of me that's like, leave the ego out of this. This is a piece of art that we are creating together. To leave your story behind for the world to hear. It's a piece of history for the world. I think it's amazing that you shared that with us.

[00:09:26] But we will support you as best as we can. You are not alone in your journey. Because we're recording this now. What's this? The beginning of September. September 7th. So if you're thinking potentially November is your birthday, that's not much longer. Yeah, that's soon. And again, who knows, right? We don't know for sure.

[00:09:47] I could drop dead tomorrow and you could be still alive thinking, Oh my God, can you believe Joel died before me? We don't know, but we're definitely here to support you. And so you've been doing YouTube videos as well, talking about, The process and the one that I think really made me smile when you were like dying is boring.

[00:10:04] I listened to that one. I had to smile about it. Just the fact that you're sharing the realities because again, most of us see in movies or TV. What we think death and dying actually is and it's really not the reality for people at all And I love that you're doing that i'm gonna put a link in the show notes Usually I record my podcast way earlier.

[00:10:27] I have some recorded now that aren't coming out until like december But i'm pushing yours ahead. I'm gonna get yours out soon because I want to make sure you're around to see it. But also I want to make sure that people that want to hear more about your story and want to see your YouTube videos as you're making them, as you're going through the process, they can do that.

[00:10:47] Because I do think there's people that are interested in experiencing the reality of it. Most of us We've avoided this our entire lives, right? We've avoided thinking about death and dying and all that. 

[00:11:02] David: I never have. 

[00:11:03] Jill: It doesn't sound like you could. Literally 

[00:11:04] David: from birth. 

[00:11:05] Jill: Exactly. You didn't have the choice.

[00:11:07] And that's why actually, so I wore my shirt, How We Die Matters, which you can't see the matters, which I made the shirt because it is true. You're going through this process now. And it's interesting because, you know, You've had this idea since you were a child, like, I'm gonna die at any point. And then during, you know, the AIDS thing, where like, I can imagine, you know, as a gay man, as a nurse, up close, not knowing where people are, even how it's going on, like, what's happening.

[00:11:38] And then taking these tests and thinking, well, of course I'm gonna get it. Of course I'm gonna die from it. 2024. 

[00:11:46] David: It's amazing. 

[00:11:47] Jill: It is amazing. You've had a very interesting relationship with death for a long time, but now you're here and you're facing it. I really admire the way that you're doing this. With our conversations, you've gotten a lot of your stuff in place, all the paperwork and all the stuff that I'm constantly talking to people about.

[00:12:05] Mentally, you're preparing yourself. I love that meditation helped with the anxiety. I think that's the thing. A lot of people start meditation thinking, I'm gonna fix this problem. Well, no, we're not gonna fix anything. What we're gonna fix is our relationship to the problem. So, I'm glad that that's given you some peace and less anxiety.

[00:12:25] David: I wouldn't even know how I could possibly get through this without it. I really don't. Because, because my mind can go, absolutely anybody's can go wild. At least now I know mine goes wild, and I can be aware that it's going wild. And, uh, kind of, not rein it in so much as just like, Oh, that's what's happening.

[00:12:44] Yeah. Not take it in as this is true. I used to believe everything I thought was true. As we all do. And now I know nothing. No thoughts are true. They're just thoughts. And that is an amazing switch. Not that something you're thinking, not necessarily isn't true, but it, just because you're thinking it, doesn't mean it's true.

[00:13:04] Before I thought, if I'm thinking it, it's gotta be true. 

[00:13:07] Jill: Yeah. We do cause a lot of our own pain and suffering. This is why I also think it is so interesting that you're nearing death and I think a lot of people, the biggest part of suffering when it comes to death and dying is the fear, is the anxiety, is the things we can do things to help with.

[00:13:30] You have your palliative care doctor, so you're on some pain medications to deal with the pain. You're still taking the heart medications that you don't suffer. But then there's still that mental stuff. Mm. That you are huge, you know, navigating with things like meditation, that I hear that it helps. So it's nice to hear from you that it is helping, because that's the thing that I want people to really understand.

[00:13:57] That, uh, the fears and the anxieties, we can work with them. There are things we can do to make. Death less scary. 

[00:14:05] David: Yes. 

[00:14:06] Jill: But it's a process. It's not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen with just saying, I'm going to be okay with it when it's happening to me. It doesn't work that way either.

[00:14:15] David: And I think no matter how prepared you are, like I am, unless I just drop dead, when it comes, you don't just, some people do just drop dead, but usually it's a process over time and eventually you're going to go unconscious. permanently, even before your body stops. So it'll be getting to that little area where I'm still a little conscious, but not quite that.

[00:14:37] Maybe I'll be terrified. I don't know. Um, I'm, I'm doing what I can do. Yeah. Ease that too. You know, Have you 

[00:14:44] Jill: read the Tibetan book of living and dying, not the Tibetan book of the dead, two different books, the Tibetan book of living and dying. I was reading through it the other day. Cause. It's like one of those things where you don't just sit down and read that book cover to cover.

[00:14:59] It's not that kind of book. But I was reading it the other day. One of the things that they were talking about in the book is how the moment of death, you have the opportunity to, because again, in Buddhism, they believe in karma and reincarnation, but you have the opportunity to work through your karma as you're nearing death.

[00:15:17] And so I think about that now sometimes of how I, had two babies with no pain medication because I wanted to completely feel the entire experience. There was part of me that was like, I'm going to meditate my way through the pain. Yeah, no, I didn't. I felt all of that pain. Yes, 

[00:15:36] David: yes, yes. 

[00:15:36] Jill: But what I did do was feel that pain and use that as a way to fully experience life.

[00:15:44] And I hope that at my moment of death, I can face it the same way. I'm still probably being a little bit afraid, still feeling the feelings, but also being like, but this is the experience, right? This is an experience we have as a human being in this body, in this lifetime. I'm going to try to be open to all of it.

[00:16:03] Again, in my mind, that's what's going to happen. I think it's interesting with the idea of that. If we have the Sangha with you, is that part of our process? If we're there with you at the moment of death to basically remind you of these things. meditate with you, say these, and we don't call them prayers in Buddhism, but in a way, it's kind of a prayer, right?

[00:16:25] To say, to remind you that this is the process and to hopefully help you get through that fear and that anxiety, even because again, I don't know, like if you're unconscious, even if you Can't respond. That doesn't mean you can't hear what we're saying. So we're still going to be there with you. And we're still going to be saying, if we can, maybe you won't wake up one day and I'll get the phone call and they'll be like, I'm sorry to tell you, David is now died.

[00:16:51] And I'll say, I am so sorry. And I will still say all the prayers for your soul to hopefully get you to wherever we go next. But if we have the opportunity, There's already a few of us that are like, we're going to be there. We're going to help support you. So you will not be alone. That's again, that's what the song is here for.

[00:17:12] We're here to support our members, our community, because I know you would do the same for me if it was the other way around. This is so beautiful, David. It was so nice to learn more about you and to have an opportunity to hear your story and to be able to share with the world, a little piece of history.

[00:17:31] Thank you Like I said, I was a child, right? I was born in 78. So by the time that you're talking about that cocktail, I know of it because when I went to college, I ended up becoming friends with a guy that I would go to him and his boyfriend's house all the time. And I saw he had all these pills. I didn't think about it.

[00:17:49] And he was like, you didn't realize that I have. Aids and I was like, no, no idea and he had told me that it was a fairly new thing Because this was again in 98 or so and that he was overall feeling really good and it was helping things But to me even then I was like, oh, this is interesting And I have to admit there was a little part of me that was like we've shared drinks.

[00:18:11] Is that like? I think it's okay, but I'm not sure if it's okay, because we're not really talking about it that much. So thankfully Even still now, 

[00:18:20] David: you never hear about it now. At all. 

[00:18:23] Jill: Nothing. No. I know. 

[00:18:26] David: People, oddly, are still becoming HIV positive. With all we know now, it's fairly easy to prevent. Out 

[00:18:32] Jill: of sight, out of mind in a lot of ways.

[00:18:34] For people that are not seeing it, they're not talking about it. We do like to just kind of think, oh, well then it's not a problem anymore. 

[00:18:43] David: Like COVID, it's out of, pretty much, it's almost out of mind for a lot of people. 

[00:18:48] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:18:48] David: That's human beings for you. 

[00:18:50] Jill: Correct. If it's not affecting me now, 

[00:18:52] David: then it doesn't exist.

[00:18:53] I 

[00:18:54] Jill: know. I know. And I don't know if that's, just a defense mechanism in some ways to allow us to exist in the world because if I was afraid of everything I wouldn't want to leave my house. So there's that. 

[00:19:09] David: I think it's the fear of death is ultimately what it is. Yes. If you weren't afraid to die then you wouldn't be afraid to leave your house.

[00:19:17] Or you might be a little nervous about for some reason but it wouldn't stop you from doing anything because you are going to die. You can't prevent it. You cannot prevent it from happening. Yeah. Which doesn't mean be stupid and foolhardy and jump off a building because then you'll die. But it does mean you're going to die no matter what you do, no matter what diet you're on, no matter what exercises you do, no matter anything you're going to die.

[00:19:41] You might as well just be open to life. 

[00:19:45] Jill: Yeah. Oh, I agree. And that's a big part of the way that I'm trying to live my life. I wear my seatbelt. I don't even drink anymore. But I was gonna say, I don't drink and drive, but I don't even drink anymore. I eat well, I meditate. I move my body to try to keep healthy, healthy body, but also.

[00:20:02] The reality is I could still die tomorrow of an accident of an unknown heart condition. I mean, like these things happen to people all the time, no matter what I do, but I feel better, right? I feel physically and mentally better as I'm existing by taking care of myself. And so that's why I do it. 

[00:20:22] David: I feel exactly the way you feel, and I have most of my life, but some people feel, well, if I'm going to die, I might as well go drinking, do the drugs, do this, do that, because I'm going to die.

[00:20:34] No, but you're going to feel like shit, or worse, while you're getting there. I don't want to feel that way. I feel as good as I possibly can of being in life as much as I can and I can't from doing all that crazy stuff. I can't. Maybe some people can. 

[00:20:50] Jill: No, no, it's true. We don't feel good and then we want to blame it on other things, right?

[00:20:56] We want to blame it on other people. We want to blame it on the government. We want to blame it on chemtrails or whatever. People want to blame it on everything else. We want to 

[00:21:04] David: Because it can't be me. 

[00:21:05] Jill: Because it can't be me. Well, you know, turning within can sometimes show us things that we have not wanted to see.

[00:21:13] Absolutely. And I know that from experience. 

[00:21:15] David: Yes. It does do that. 

[00:21:17] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:21:18] David: It's not for the cowardly. 

[00:21:20] Jill: No, it is not. But I honestly would not. Go back to having my head in the sand. I wouldn't go back to what it was like before I finally sat and faced myself. Some of my poor decisions and some of my poor behaviors and some of the ways I was causing myself my own suffering.

[00:21:40] David: A hundred percent. Yeah. 

[00:21:41] Jill: Yeah. Without also trying to shame and blame myself either. Cause that's not helpful. Cause I also do believe that we're still a product of our environment. And so when you're raised in a culture. that glorifies alcohol usage, glorifies different ways to shop your way out of whatever it is, right?

[00:22:01] All these things to try to fill these holes that in the long run they tended to just cause me more pain and suffering rather than actually filling the hole. And then I was adding more stuff on top of it. Like, well, I just need to take more wellness classes. I need to read more books. I need to meditate more, right?

[00:22:19] I need to do all these things more. That'll fix it. Then 

[00:22:24] David: you get to learn there isn't even a hole. 

[00:22:26] Jill: Oh, that's so good. It's true. 

[00:22:29] David: There's no hole. We think there's a hole, but there is no hole. And you're trying to fill a hole. No hole. That's what I, lately, what I've come to realize, there's no hole. Yeah. Pema Chodron always says, you're not meditating to get better.

[00:22:43] It's not about getting better. It's about, You will, like you said, make better decisions or, you know, do things, you will do things differently in your life, but it's not about getting better. And I love that. I just love that. 

[00:22:57] Jill: Oh, Pema's amazing though. If anybody listening has not read Pema or listened, she's got YouTube videos for real.

[00:23:03] She's a good starter into some of the practices that we do because she's just so accessible. She's just, She's a normal person. She started off as just a normal mom that went down this path and she's amazing. And yeah, it's true. So many of us get to Buddhism, get to meditation with this idea of I need to fix my anxiety.

[00:23:26] I need to fix whatever. And then they're like, by the way, you're not fixing anything. And it's like, Oh, then what am I doing? But it's, You're sitting and you're sitting with yourself. 

[00:23:38] David: And 

[00:23:41] Jill: not running from yourself anymore. And that's where the Sangha really does come in. Like we met at Monday night Sangha.

[00:23:47] We would go on Monday nights and it was just like an open sit and we would All meditate together and then we would do some readings and then we would have some conversation and that to me was so helpful in my evolution as a person was being able to come together with a group of people all of us showing up for different reasons from different backgrounds with different experiences.

[00:24:10] But coming together and saying, we're going to sit down for 30 minutes and be very quiet, and then we're going to learn a little bit, and then we're going to talk about what we learned. And just doing that consistently over time did really change my life. 

[00:24:25] David: It changed 

[00:24:25] Jill: my life for the better, and the people that I've met through the sangha have really helped me.

[00:24:29] Have changed my life for the better. And so I love it so much, even though I rarely make it anymore, because I'm definitely in a place in my life where I'm like, actually, I don't need to be going out as much. I want to be home. I want to be with my family. I want a little more quiet. I'm in a phase of my life where a little bit more quiet is good.

[00:24:47] That's what I 

[00:24:48] David: don't go out hardly 

[00:24:50] Jill: at all. Yeah. And 

[00:24:51] David: I said, when that one video did death is boring. What I was kind of saying is that it's not a big deal. I mean, you think it's a big deal and it's like, it's just, you're living your day to day, that's it. Especially when I got everything done in terms of the cremation, the burial, the this, the that.

[00:25:09] It's all done. It's like, now what do I do? 

[00:25:12] Jill: What do we do? Sit around and wait to die, I don't know. 

[00:25:15] David: I read, I watch a show, I meditate, I Make a video, whatever I feel like doing, that's what I do. And I'm not bored at all. Actually bored, you know what I mean? But yeah. 

[00:25:28] Jill: Yeah. Oh, and I got people knocking on the door.

[00:25:31] Because again, I'm not bored either. I have my children still, and my husband, and life is very full right now. Life is 

[00:25:37] David: trying to break into that room. 

[00:25:39] Jill: Yeah, which is okay. We're actually a little over time, which is fine. I never mind if it's a good conversation. I never mind going over time. I always. figure it out.

[00:25:49] It might just be two parts. We might break you up into two sections, but it'll be fine. I really appreciate this so much. This was just, this was beautiful. 

[00:25:59] David: And before I have to be honest with you, like when I get up in the mornings are horrible for me every day. I'm just so bad. And I'm so tired even when I'm waking up and I'm like, why did I say I would do this?

[00:26:13] But now I'm really, really pleased and glad that I did. 

[00:26:16] Jill: Oh, wonderful. I'm really happy to hear that. Because I want it to be that experience for my guests. 

[00:26:22] David: It is. It's that you offer, you're providing an opportunity for people to, at least I can speak for myself, to really kind of put it all together. I normally don't think about all of that stuff and it's kind of like, this was my life.

[00:26:36] Holy looks. 

[00:26:37] Jill: Yeah. Life review is one of the things that death doulas recommend that people do before we die. Go through a life review and think about all the different things that we've experienced. Because even people that are like, oh, my life is boring. I didn't do anything interesting. But when you really stop and think about it, we've all had a life, right?

[00:26:56] We've all had experiences and everybody's experiences are different. I do truly believe that the more we can learn about other people's lives, the more empathy we have for all humans. Because as you pointed out, we all have pain, we all have fear, we all have anxiety, we all have the same experiences. but different things that kind of like lead to those pain and suffering and anxiety.

[00:27:22] Yep. Yep. But it's part of the human experience. I wouldn't change it, even though I am also like you where I have much less anxiety now, since I've had a consistent meditation practice, the consistent meditation practice, sit down and meditate bonds. I'm really anxious. I'm Sometimes helps and sometimes that I'm like, I need to get up.

[00:27:47] I can't do this right now. But the consistent practice makes it so that when I meet situations that normally would have given me a lot of anxiety, I don't feel that same anxiety. I observe it differently. I remove myself from this situation in a way that I look at it and I'm like, Oh, this is interesting.

[00:28:07] Okay. 

[00:28:07] David: Life is not all about me. 

[00:28:10] Jill: Yeah, 

[00:28:10] David: there's a whole 

[00:28:11] Jill: lot of that too. Yes, 

[00:28:12] David: there is. Yeah. Which is great. It is great. Thank you. I really appreciate this. 

[00:28:17] Jill: Oh, you're very welcome, David. Well, I love you, and I'm so happy that we had this opportunity, and for real, we're here for you. You're not alone. I will put a link to your YouTube channel so that anybody that wants to check it out, you're welcome to check it out, but I hope you have a wonderful day.

[00:28:33] David: Be forgiving because I've never done it before, and I'm just rattling on, 

[00:28:36] Jill: and 

[00:28:37] David: I don't even look at them afterwards. 

[00:28:38] Jill: That was the weirdest thing for me, having to look and hear myself. afterwards when I edit. I don't 

[00:28:44] David: know how to edit, so I can't do 

[00:28:46] Jill: that. Honestly, it doesn't matter. I think the 

[00:28:49] David: It's just raw is what it is.

[00:28:51] Jill: Yes, the type of videos that you're making don't need to be edited. They don't need to be fancy. Just really your experience. It sounds like you have an acting career in your past, so I'm sure they're better than you think they are just because of that, because that's the hardest part is being okay.

[00:29:08] looking at a camera and talking to a camera and not having there be somebody on the other side, which is why I actually like podcasts better than creating just a video or like doing a single podcast. I always do interviews, almost always do interviews because I don't like to just talk at a camera. It makes me very uncomfortable, but having a conversation, I'm fine.

[00:29:29] Well, 

[00:29:29] David: in my mind when I'm doing it, I'm thinking just like me, maybe somebody who's just like me is watching this. So I'm going to just tell you how it's going on for me. That's kind of what's going in my head. And hopefully it will help somebody go, Oh, I guess I'm not so crazy after all or something, you know?

[00:29:46] Jill: Yeah. And I'm sure it is definitely, if it's not already, it will reach people that are going to be able to be like, Oh, it's not just me. I hope 

[00:29:56] David: so. Yeah. 

[00:29:57] Jill: Wonderful. Well, thank you again. 

[00:29:59] David: Thank you. Thank you. 

[00:30:01] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Through the Eyes. In my next episode, I speak with Jill Bodak, an osteopath from Toronto, about her journey as a caregiver after her father's unexpected stroke in 2020.

[00:30:16] Jill shares the emotional highs and lows of navigating her father's condition, from defying the odds of survival to his eventual choice to use medically assisted death, which is a legal option in Canada. We discuss her book, Loved Into Being, Reflections on Stroke and Being Indestructible, where she reflects on family, grief, and caregiving.

[00:30:39] Jill opens up about the challenging role reversal as her father's caregiver, the heartbreak of seeing his vulnerability, and the moments of humor and connection they found along the way. She also explores how this experience transformed her understanding of wellness and mortality. It's an honest conversation about love, loss, and the beauty of caring for those we love at the end of life.

[00:31:02] If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it helpful. find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others.

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[00:31:36] You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution. Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.