Rose Luardo’s Exploration of Life and Death Part 2

Rose Luardo is a vibrant, multifaceted artist living in South Philadelphia, where she engages in various odd jobs, art projects, and gigs. She's a person who's always been intrigued—and admittedly a bit obsessed—with the concept of death.

In this episode of Seeing Death Clearly, Rose reflects on the human condition and our relationship with mortality, presenting a perspective that challenges conventional views of human exceptionalism. She questions why humans consider themselves more special than other species, highlighting our tendency to see ourselves as the pinnacle of evolution, even though we're just another part of Earth's complex system.

Rose resonates with the idea that the Earth will continue without us, and in the grand scheme, things will be fine, even if it means that cockroaches inherit the Earth. She emphasizes the importance of accepting what we can and cannot control, advocating for the idea that we should strive to be the best humans we can be, despite our imperfections and the guilt and shame we may carry.

Rose notes the recent cultural shift towards discussing death more openly, recognizing the value in training people to assist with this transition. She shares a personal anecdote about attending the Beautiful Death Expo, where death was normalized and discussed in a way that felt as ordinary as visiting a mall.

The conversation also touches on the deep emotional experiences of those who have lost loved ones, particularly children, and how these realities are part of the human experience. Rose discusses the importance of facing these harsh truths head-on rather than ignoring them, suggesting that acknowledging death and trauma can lead to a more meaningful life.

Throughout, Rose reflects on how her understanding of death has influenced her life, making her feel lighter and less concerned with material pursuits. This perspective has allowed her to live more freely, shedding the pressures of capitalist values and embracing a simpler, more purposeful existence.

I’m thrilled to share my new line of death-positive apparel and items; a great way to bring meaningful conversation into style and support a small, death-positive business.

These shirts are designed for those of us who believe in open, honest conversations about death, dying, and grief. 

And if you’re a regular listener, I know you’re already death-positive and not afraid to spark these conversations. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Rose: Death doula wasn't a profession until sort of recently. We have come to a place where this is where we're going. If there are humans that are trained in the art of this transition, this transition is worth talking about as a culture, as a people, as a world. It's a sign of the times. 

[00:00:18] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly.

[00:00:20] I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach. Here on my show I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

[00:00:43] In this episode, I finish up my two part conversation with South Philadelphia artist Rose Luardo, who shares her unique views on death and the human experience. If you haven't listened to Episode 79 yet, Part 1 with Rose, Be sure to go back and listen to that one first. In this episode, Rose questions why humans see themselves as the most important species, pointing out the Earth will continue without us.

[00:01:10] We talk about accepting what we can and cannot control and embracing both the good and bad in life. Rose also discusses the growing cultural openness around death, sharing her experience at the Beautiful Death Expo, where death was discussed like any other topic. She reflects on loss, aging, and how facing death has helped her live a simpler, more meaningful life.

[00:01:34] Rose encourages us to let go of fear and guilt, accepting life's changes, and find peace in the fact that death is a natural part of our journey. Join us for this thought provoking conversation that invites you to rethink your relationship with life and death. Thank you for being here. It's always about the cycles and a human life.

[00:01:55] It's a cycle, you know, like maybe humanity in general, maybe this is coming on the end of our cycle. I had a friend in college that when we were talking one day, he was like, look, the earth will be fine. It will kill us all off and regenerate. Don't worry about the earth. And I was like, yeah, but I'm worried about us.

[00:02:11] Like, I don't want us all to die. But then in the long run, I'm like, why not? And really, why not? Does it really matter? I don't want to watch my children suffer. I don't want to watch humans suffer, but already we're seeing so much human suffering. So it's like, why not my children? As much as I hate to say that, it's like, I am so grateful that right now that is not their experience, but why not my children?

[00:02:34] Why should I be special? Why should they not die a terrible death like other children all around the world? 

[00:02:39] Rose: And why should our species? Why should humans be more special than sharks, be more special than an octopus, be more special than an ant? We've done something here. We have done something here. But we are not necessarily the most special thing here.

[00:02:51] And I really like your friend's idea that the Earth is going to be fine. She'll kill us all off. Kill us all off and cockroaches will have top hats and monocles and it'll be fine. I mean, that is also the mantra. Even when it's not fine, it's going to be fine. It's doing what it's doing. Give it up. There are some things you can do and some things you can control and some things you can't.

[00:03:11] So shake hands with that fact. And then just try to be the best human you can be, question 

[00:03:15] Jill: mark. I'm always trying to be the best human that I can be. I know that I'm not perfect, but I feel that trying is better than not trying and living with some guilt and shame. I've had to work through some of that stuff myself too.

[00:03:32] And you know, all of it's okay. Cause like you said, it's all going to be fine. We put these things in good or bad. This is bad. This is good. This is good. Catholic, Catholic heaven and hell. Oh my gosh. Yes. And the Catholic guilt. My husband's not Catholic. He's like, what is wrong with you Catholics? You're guilty.

[00:03:50] You feel shame about everything. I was like, I don't know. It's just bred into us. I don't know how to get rid of it. But really, in the long run, there's not good or bad. It's all part of the same thing. And the more that we cling to the good, and the more that we push away the bad, quote unquote bad and good, the more that we just cause ourselves suffering.

[00:04:12] If we could just be here for all of it, and like you said, just crack the beer and be like, All right, here we go. It's all falling apart around me, but I'm just gonna sit here and observe and just hold my people close while I can. Well, 

[00:04:24] that's 

[00:04:25] Rose: the Buddhist in you. That's the Eastern part of you that really has, you know, there was something that you were saying earlier about phases and cycles, uh, death doula wasn't a profession or something that people were even doing until sort of recently.

[00:04:39] And I see this as a little death centric, but a little like the time is now to be having these converse. We have come to a place where this is where we're going. If there are humans that are trained in the art of death, of this transition. This transition is worth talking about as a culture, as a people, as a world.

[00:04:57] It's a sign of the times. Yeah. 

[00:04:59] Jill: Because right now there's a lot of us that are training to become death rulers and trying to get out into our communities and bring this to the forefront. We have to talk about it. We have to think about it. If nothing else, there's a whole lot of baby boomers that are going to die soon.

[00:05:15] So there's a lot of them. 

[00:05:17] Rose: Have you heard of something called the Beautiful Death Expo? It's a death expo. Oh my gosh. You might love it. Sure. I would. When my dad was dying, I signed up. It was online. I was like, I'm going to go to the Beautiful Death Expo online. So they, I guess they have it. I guess like pre, pre quar, pre pandemio, they were meeting at some location.

[00:05:35] I would love to think of it being like a Hilton where everyone's meeting at a Hilton for that death expo. It was awesome because it was people just meeting and talking, doing presentations. People that were undertakers, people that were talking about new kinds of makeup that could be used, clothes, options, water cremation, just normalizing the whole thing.

[00:05:55] It felt like you were just at the mall. You were at the death mall, hanging out. There was a woman whose child died. She was doing a whole presentation. And it was about everything from the death of her child, to the casket that she purchased, to the options that she had, to her mental health. It was so full.

[00:06:15] It was really, really, really cool. 

[00:06:17] Jill: And I love to talk to people that have had all different experiences. But definitely when I talk to people that have had children die, that's That's puts me in my really uncomfortable zone, but I don't shy away from it because pretending that's not real is not going to save my children.

[00:06:35] It's not going to protect my children any more than talking to somebody that experienced it is going to make it happen to my children. But that is my uncomfortable zone. And I think that's Partially biology, right? We're supposed to do everything we can as mothers to take care of our offspring and so it's probably partially that too.

[00:06:55] It's my worst nightmare and people live it every 

[00:06:58] Rose: day. Oh my god, you just said a sentence there. That is my worst nightmare and people live it every day and that's the reality. And how do you get out of bed, put on your jeans and t shirt, and keep on walking through it? When realities like that are existing.

[00:07:15] It's what you have to It's part of the contract. It's part of the contract of being in a human body on planet Earth. That this is something that can happen. It's a different way of reframing trauma too. Because traumatic shit is happening. Can I say shit? It's shit. Horrible things are happening here. You can't look away.

[00:07:33] It's what happens here. I don't want to just keep on shoveling fruit loops in my mouth and putting on blinders and pretending that they can be otherwise. I also think that's part of what it maybe is to like live in earth right now. It's like the dialectical behavioral therapy of it all. You know what I mean?

[00:07:51] It's a plaid. As we're talking about like the Catholic issues of black and white, a solid good and bad, it's really about making the plaid of it and being able to surf the waves that way. I like that imagery. I'm picturing it in my head. I'm like, Ooh, I like that. Yeah. And I mean, I'm deeply middle aged now.

[00:08:10] So these are the things that come up for me, as you were saying before, when I go to a cocktail party and I want to talk about death, you either can stand next to me in this conversation or not. It is something that I enjoy. Discussing, even planning, like how am I going to go through this menopause eating, eating gummy worms?

[00:08:28] How am I going to go through this death? How am I going to experience my spouse's sickness and death of people that are around me? How do I want to have this with my community? As a human that doesn't have children, I have a lot of friends that don't have kids because of course that's what happens. The breeders stay with the breeders and those that didn't, we make our own little enclave over here.

[00:08:48] How do I want to care for my friends and live it good to the last drop? I think those are sometimes scary conversations, but ready? If you don't plan, you don't get the thing that you want. You're not forward thinking. You, you sometimes have to work to have a good time. It's not easy. It doesn't just happen.

[00:09:02] That is true. Have to 

[00:09:03] Jill: plan for, I don't know, for our end of life experience. Not just the death. Right? But like you said, what do we want to do? Because I'm 45, so I'm hitting that point of my children are getting a little older. I'm sure they'll be leaving the nest eventually. I don't know, maybe not. My son says he's going to live with us forever, but who knows?

[00:09:23] And yeah, and so what does the next phase of my life look like for me? I don't know. And I will figure it out as 

[00:09:29] Rose: I go. Are people contacting you like earlier and earlier to have conversations about death? Do you find I wish they were. What do you wish? Tell me about your wish for your death dueling. What do you wish people were accessing?

[00:09:41] Jill: I think the biggest thing is I do wish people were contacting me younger and earlier. before they were even sick, before anything was happening. To just get comfortable talking about it, to think it through, what do they want. But especially if people are diagnosed with an illness, even if it's not considered terminal at that point, like, let's sit down, let's talk about it.

[00:10:03] Because I find that sometimes people say, well, when should I contact you? When somebody's dying? I'm like, well, let's Yeah, but really, it's better if I can get to know them, know what they want, what they like, what they're interested in. Because like you said, I want to play music for people. I want to do things to help them feel good.

[00:10:22] And unfortunately, when we don't know who somebody is, I don't know what to do for them. And so I would love to talk to people earlier. And I even tried, like now every day, everybody has their online programs and all that stuff. I have one on my website where I'm like, everybody would live a better life if you get okay with death.

[00:10:41] I will walk you through the whole process. Let's do this together. It's a couple weeks long. We'll talk about it. We'll do exercises. We'll do guided meditations. We'll do all this stuff just to get more comfortable with death and dying because honestly, it will help you live your life better. 

[00:10:56] Rose: That's incredible.

[00:10:58] Jill: Oh, that's what I'm trying for. That's 

[00:11:00] Rose: great. And that is it. It will ultimately you'll have a better life. I feel that way. I feel a lot more free. I feel lighter. I feel like sillier and giddier. It's a psychic weight lifted. I love what you're saying about all the different things that you were just able to rattle off.

[00:11:15] The meditations, the thought process, the things that you want to have during, before, and while you are dying. That's like, look at where we've come to even ask those questions to fluff the pillow. 

[00:11:26] Jill: It's true. And that is something that sometimes Me and other death doulas, there's a little frustration of people just not being willing to do this work, not being willing to talk about it.

[00:11:39] But then I also have to think about how far we've come, even just in the last few years of more and more people are having these conversations. It's not going to happen overnight. It's okay. We don't want anything to happen overnight, right? Good or bad. Cause again, nothing's really good or bad. If things happen very quickly overnight.

[00:11:55] That would not be a good situation in a lot of cases, so it's fine that it doesn't happen fast. 

[00:12:00] Rose: I think that it is the tipping point though. Do you see yourself as a pioneer in this space? 

[00:12:07] Jill: Yeah, I think in some ways I do, as much as I don't want to say it that way because the whole like ego trip thing that can come with that, but I do see myself partially because I'm hanging on where I've been doing this now for four years Not really making money at it, but i'm hanging on i'm not giving up.

[00:12:24] I started the podcast I'm, actually starting a t shirt line now of deaf positive wear to Get people to walk around and wear things that make people think and start conversations. So I do see myself in that way. I like to think I'm going to look back one day thinking, well, I don't know why you were so worried about money anyway.

[00:12:44] It was all fine. I was going to say, well, 

[00:12:47] Rose: you know what? You might not make any money. You might not make any money, but it's what you're doing. And it's a calling that you have. You can say pioneer and leave the ego out of it. Pioneer just. You're doing something that not everyone's doing. There was some dude that was like, look, I struck gold.

[00:13:01] I'm out here solo. Look, tons of people follow. Tons of people went out there to like strike it rich, but there had to be one guy that was out there with a pickaxe by himself for a while. You happen to be somebody who is moved in this direction. You may have been born to do it and there might not be any cash in it.

[00:13:17] But it is incredibly valid and important and honestly seems to be giving you fulfillment 

[00:13:23] Jill: as a person. It does give me fulfillment, and I do think I was born to do this work. I just was 40 years old when I figured it out, but that's okay, because I think we weren't ready yet anyways as a society. When it came to me, And part of me was like, Oh, that's it.

[00:13:38] That's what you're supposed to do. It was the right timing. It was literally right before the pandemic when a bunch of people got really scared about dying and a bunch of people who were dying and I had just started my training in January. Next thing I knew, I was like, look at the world now. It definitely was quote unquote divine timing.

[00:13:55] I guess if you want to call it that. 

[00:13:57] Rose: If that is divine, that is telling you that you were exactly at the right place at the right time, doing the right thing. Mm hmm. Forget cash. Forget capitalism. Forget all of it. This was you being in the, I mean, absolutely. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. That would, I mean, that really takes out the highlighter and it really italicizes and highlights the fact that this is exactly what you should be doing.

[00:14:21] And I mean, to that, what were you doing before that led you to 

[00:14:24] Jill: being a doula? I have been in food service for a very long time, since I was about 16, and I was teaching a job training program in Camden. I actually still teach there part time, where it's a non profit, and we teach people that are unemployed or underemployed, baking culinary, serve safe, to get them jobs.

[00:14:46] And I think that's pretty cool. Part of it, too, is that the demographic of people that I worked with, there was a lot of death, there was a lot of death, there was a lot of grief, there was a lot of unprocessed grief. I was working with it all the time anyway, and realizing that I was standing there teaching them how to bake, but really the real work was being done here in the other space of the conversations and the support.

[00:15:11] I had, All kinds of crazy stuff happened. We had students that got shot and killed students that died of overdoses. It was all around us all the time. Actually, my death duel, a mentor one day when I was like, yeah, we found another person OD'd in the back of the building. And she was like, you see more dead people than I do.

[00:15:28] And I was like, maybe sometimes I was there to do a lot of that other work. Not teach people how to bake, but that was the doorway into it. So it's really just a natural progression of work that I was already doing and so now when I'm at the hospital and I'm sitting with people of all ages and all stages of illnesses and dying of all different things, I'm like, okay, cool.

[00:15:52] I'm here for it. I'm here 

[00:15:53] Rose: for it. Yeah, and you know, you said food service. There's nothing like looking at humanity than working in food service. It's nothing like working in a restaurant to really show you humans. Working service will really turn you out. I kind of think you don't really know people until you've worked in a restaurant.

[00:16:11] I think 

[00:16:11] Jill: everybody should work food service at some point in their life. Because you get to know humans, you get to know what it's like to serve certain people that really do believe that everybody is here to serve them. Eye opening experience. One of the things that I've always loved about Kitchens is that nobody gave a shit where you came from, what race you were.

[00:16:37] As long as you were there and doing your job, nobody cared. I love that about food service. I love that about restaurants. And I don't find that in all areas. 

[00:16:47] Rose: I agree. And on the back end, so you're right. Sometimes you were serving somebody. You cannot believe this person exists. They are so selfish and self centered.

[00:16:57] And on the back end, you have all these people where you can just say, I'm in the weeds and everyone will come and help you. I've never existed in a place where I can touch both this and this at the same time. You're right. The chemistry, the family vibe, and the friendships you had after the restaurant closed.

[00:17:13] Drinking and talking after the restaurant's closed. It just felt so fun and magical and the grind on the opposite side is like serving. All different kinds of walks of life coming through. I worked in a Steven Star restaurant. I don't know if you're familiar with The Restaurateur Steven Star. Oh, of course I am.

[00:17:32] But I worked in the very first Continental, the one that was at 3rd and Market. Yep. What a wild ride. The line down to the river to try and get into that place. Cell phones had just been invented. Posturing. There was so much like putting a cell phone on the table just to show everyone that you had a cell phone.

[00:17:51] There was a lot of like buying a Diet Coke with a hundred dollar bill and saying keep the change. And then there was a lot, and then there were people that were like, Hey, do you guys have fried eggs? It was a little bit of everything, but I agree with you. I think you should graduate from high school and then have to work food service.

[00:18:05] Jill: Because it does, it shows you a whole different side of humans, and it's also a lot of fun. I love restaurants. For me, there's always the joke that when you retire from kitchens, you either go into sales or teaching. I went into teaching, and my husband went into sales because we needed to work Monday to Friday.

[00:18:24] But honestly, once I started teaching, I felt that was the work. Like that's what I was meant to do. And it wasn't. The working in the kitchens, but I had to put in the time. I had to learn what I needed to learn to teach the students, but teaching, I still love it. I still teach part time and I really, really enjoy it.

[00:18:44] And actually, this is kind of the thing too. Now with death, I like to teach people about death and dying and grief. And so I teach for the library in little local places. I would love to do more of it, honestly, because I do enjoy it. 

[00:18:57] Rose: What's a big learning that you have gleaned from having these conversations with people now that you've been doing the podcast for a while?

[00:19:03] Can you think of a conversation you had with someone where you really, you know, learn something for yourself? 

[00:19:09] Jill: I've learned so much from all of my guests. Honestly, it's, it's such a pleasure to talk to so many different people talking to one woman in particular, whose son died in his sleep. Totally sudden, unexpected.

[00:19:22] The way that she was able to navigate that grief and come out the other side of it really did show me that as much as it's still a fear for me, as much as I still don't want to have that experience, it is survivable. You can come out the other end of even your worst nightmare. And live your life and use that gift for helping other people.

[00:19:50] That conversation was difficult for me, but it really did change me. But I've had, you know, people that are real experts in end of life. You know, one of the ones, Barbara Carnes, who she's written all kinds of books. She's like this big deal in hospice having Barbara on my podcast. I learned so much from her.

[00:20:08] It's like, I have doctors on that teach me things about end of life care and different treatments. I learned so much and that's. Really why I love having the podcast. I get to talk to really amazing people and it feels Flattering in a lot of cases when like I email you and I'm like, hey you were in the newspaper Will you talk to me?

[00:20:29] It's really flattering that people are like, yeah, totally. I'd love to talk to 

[00:20:33] Rose: you You're like finding your brethren Look, I think you're finding your people. I think you're finding your tribe. I think that most people that are, ready? Most people that are putting up rave coffins at 6th and Washington want to talk to you and are very excited to have a conversation like this that feels, well, look, it's rare.

[00:20:50] I want to ask you this. If you were to synthesize down into a nugget, what you feel the most important part of the death and dying conversation is? What would you say is the thing that you want to, from the years of talking to people and having these conversations, what's maybe something that you hear again and again that is underscoring for you what's most important about these conversations?

[00:21:11] Or about death? 

[00:21:11] Jill: It's really the key to actually fully living your life. is to be okay with the fact that it's gonna end one day. Honestly, from everybody that I've talked to, whether they're experiencing different things, they're at the end of life, people that I sit and talk to at the hospitals, when they have their fears and their regrets and all these other things, it's like, we would die better?

[00:21:34] But really, we would live better if we got okay with the fact that one day this 

[00:21:39] Rose: would end. When you look at like still lifes that were done maybe in the, I don't know, 1600s, and it'll be like a bowl of fruit, a flower, a skull. I've been told that people would keep a skull in the house to remind them that they were dying to put everything in perspective.

[00:21:55] Jill: Yeah, memento mori. The phrase is essentially remember your mortality, but it's a style of art. And even churches, Catholic churches used to use it a lot where they would have skulls or skeletons in artwork to remind themselves every day that they're going to die. Think about how obsessed we are with Halloween.

[00:22:16] Everybody's got all their Halloween decorations. You know, Halloween is crazy. People love that stuff. As long as they could put it away at the end of the month. I have skulls all over my house and I have them tattooed on my body. I have the skulls everywhere and I have had them, I think partially because I wanted to remember, but even more so now I realize 

[00:22:39] Rose: the importance.

[00:22:40] Me too. I get a tattoo every decade. So I got one in my teens, one in my twenties, one of my thirties, one of my forties, fifties. And the tattoo that I got in my fifties, It's a tombstone. And then I want to put in the inside, see you soon! Can remember every day. Wow, I love what you just said. We should remember every day that we're dying.

[00:23:02] There would be such less pettiness and shithead behavior if we remembered we were dying every day. We would maybe not give a shit about trying to be right all the time or force our way or have power over people if we knew this flesh sack was going away. If we knew that our ego and even what we think and believe and say is like literally like a, it's like a, it's like a piece of dust.

[00:23:29] You're a piece of dust. Stop it already. Get off your shit. It's very freeing and I think you really are right on both counts that when you can touch down into death it's going to make you have a much better life and that you should remember that you're dying every day. Maybe people will say that we are dark goth girls.

[00:23:46] That this is just the chatter of two goth girls. But, look, I mean, honestly, it's changed my life. It's helped me, it's helped me live like in a, in a, I feel a lot freer. I feel like I don't go chasing a lot of mundane things, things of the world that I used to chase. I'm not as like hungry schmungry for American capitalist values, you know, like I think it's helped me want less.

[00:24:11] They pare down. It's the Marie Konda of my soul. It's coming out. I don't need all that. Do you think that's done that for you as well? 

[00:24:18] Jill: Oh, for sure. I was never somebody that had a desire for a lot of stuff anyway, but what I would do is if somebody gave me something, something that was my grandmother's like almost everything in my house, including the plants literally came from my and so it was always a part of me.

[00:24:38] That has a really hard time of letting go of stuff. I wasn't a hoarder because I tried not to bring a lot into my house, but I just would get this like attachment to things that were somebody's or that somebody gave me now just don't care as much. It's not that I don't still love the things that I have in the house.

[00:24:58] But there's a part of me that has a lot easier time, even again, like the environmentalism, if I thought something could be used again, if it was getting thrown out, if it was being wasted, I would get really anxious. Like, no, we can't throw this away. And my husband was like, no, it's got to go in the trash.

[00:25:13] And I would get really anxious about it. Now I'm just kind of like, all right, you know what? We are taking out the trash, like trash bag after trash bag and just crap that is just piled up over time, especially having kids. And that's the only thing that I could think of that's actually gotten me there. I just got okay with a lot of things in life.

[00:25:32] And so some of that stress and that anxiety that I would have around those things lessened. And even the idea of making money Transcribed Other than the fact that I know I need to make money because I need to pay bills and I have children that I'm going to put into college and I even have a college fund for a friend of mine's kid during 2020 with the whole Black Lives Matter thing.

[00:25:51] Somebody online was like, if you want to pay reparations, find a kid in your life and start a college fund. And I was like, amazing. So I'm going to do that. I am trying to make sure that I'm providing for the generation after me. But as far as the stuff, there's really nothing that I want. I have the stuff that I want.

[00:26:08] It's just. The letting go sometimes was 

[00:26:11] Rose: hard for me. Oh, the letting go. The letting go. I have a lot of push pull myself. Just with my body, when you go through menopause, it really kicks into high gear. Because it's happening to your body. It starts that conversation in your mind. I am no longer a fecund, plump, juicy, producing fruit.

[00:26:32] I can no longer bear a child. And so then the whole thing shuts down. It's like, just die already. Ba dum bum ba dum bum. It's over. I was diagnosed with high cholesterol, I'm pre diabetic, you lose your hair, everything is dry and crispy, your skin changes. It's really wild to watch it on your body. And while there's a part of me that like You know, I'm a lady who was born in the early seventies.

[00:27:00] I love my crone creams. I love my, my, my stuff. But at the end of the day, this is all going away. And I think that sometimes when you put it on your body in that way, it can click into, I like what you said about starting a college fund for my friend's kid or a kid in my life. I'm starting a college fund for my, I care about the generation that's coming up.

[00:27:21] And this is where I want to spend my time and my energy. It's not so much like stuff and the things that, you know, I mean, look, this is kind of, that's so American though, right? To have stuff and to constantly be trading up and having more stuff. 

[00:27:34] Jill: It's nice to have 

[00:27:35] Rose: more of the trappings. Fill 

[00:27:36] Jill: in those holes with crap that we don't need anyway.

[00:27:40] And yeah, I'm perimenopausal and by the way, you look amazing. So you're certainly not a shriveled up prune by any means. But 

[00:27:51] Rose: how about now? 

[00:27:54] Jill: But it is, it's an interesting process to be watching my body change and to feel my body changing and to think I was never somebody that was very, like, ego driven of how I looked.

[00:28:09] But again, I will say from a place of privilege that overall I've always looked pretty decent. If I didn't look this way, maybe I would feel differently. But, uh, It is interesting. The things that bother me, the gray hair, I'm loving it. Like I'm like ready, like all let's do this. All gray, the forehead wrinkles.

[00:28:26] Not so much. The wrinkles around my eyes. I actually love them. I'm like, Ooh, I like those guys. You're right. It is. And it's weird. It's just something that in this phase, in this part of my cycle in life, there's surprises of what I'm okay with. And when I'm having a harder time being okay with what I'm ready to let go of, like Once my period's gone, I am ready for that.

[00:28:50] I'm like, all right, let's do this. But then I've heard other people be like, well, if you like sex at all, good luck. Cause after menopause, you're not. And I'm like, no, don't tell me that. That's terrible. I think it's so funny 

[00:29:02] Rose: about the body. It's like, you don't need that anymore. You're not pumping out more human beings.

[00:29:07] So no sex for you. You know, that's how it feels. It feels like, yeah, you don't need to, you're not, you're not going to make any more human beings. So why should sex be pleasurable for you? 

[00:29:17] Jill: It's. Interesting. And that's it. Some of those things, we are in a human body. We can't change those things. So I try to remind myself that while I have this human body, I will enjoy it as best as I can without abusing it because I don't want to have a ton of health problems that I look back on.

[00:29:38] And I might still from like twenties and thirties, you know, like look back on and be like, damn, Julie, shouldn't have been doing that. But for the most part, I try to take care of my body so it could be healthy as long as possible, and I can enjoy it as long as possible while also being like, this is also going to come to an end, so it's okay.

[00:29:55] Yeah. 

[00:29:56] Rose: And I feel that for women it might be different because we pop out little creatures. And to have that be a thing that we can do, and then to watch that not be a thing we can do any longer, it changes your relationship. I don't know if dudes go through this. I don't know if dudes ever, like, come to this one.

[00:30:12] When it's really happening to your body that way, and you get to be personal and intimate, You know, honestly, I think in many ways it probably is helpful because it's that thing you said. It's forcing you to deal with the fact that you're in a different phase of living and the casket is coming, the rave coffin is coming.

[00:30:28] So it can probably help you shift in a different way. But also when did you come to Buddhism? Like when did you come to a practice of Buddhism? 

[00:30:36] Jill: I was drawn to it when I was young, you know, probably in my teens. The first time I'd seen it, heard of it. I tried learning from books on my own, didn't work so well.

[00:30:46] I got very confused by a lot of what I was reading. In like 2017 or so, I was doing a little microdosing myself because I was going through some Dark Night of the Soul kind of stuff. I was really having a hard time. And my husband was like, you need to see a therapist. I was bringing a lot home from work.

[00:31:08] As well as personal stuff. You need to see a therapist and you always really liked meditating. Like, why don't you get back into that again? And I was hanging out with some friends and one of the guys was like, Oh, I go to this place on Monday nights in Philly that you might really like. It's like this Buddhist meditation place.

[00:31:26] You should come. And I was like, yes, actually, that sounds amazing. And so I started going on Monday nights and I basically never stopped and I love it. It fills in me the thing that needed to be filled. 

[00:31:40] Rose: Well, I feel that, you know, the Buddhists really got it right. Middle path, man. Middle path. Sometimes in like moments of elation and joy, I love to say this will pass.

[00:31:51] And in Dark Knight of the Soul, I like to say, this will pass. It's turning. It's changing. I'll change. I did a, one of those Vipassana retreats. Are you familiar with a Vipassana retreat? I know of them. I don't really know anything about them. Well, as you can see, you can see, I love to chat. You can see, I love to talk.

[00:32:08] It's no talking, no touching, no eye contact. And it's supposed to be 10 days, but what they don't tell you is the first day and the last day also count. So it's 12 days. You don't touch anybody. You don't look at anybody. Okay. You don't hear the sound of your own voice. After that time, after the 12 days, when you say hi to someone for the first time, it's shocking.

[00:32:29] Your own voice sounds like a vacuum cleaner. Everything is kind of new and fresh again. Just like a cool breeze over your body feels like everything's kind of new. I think it's worth having the experience if you're in the flesh suit, if you're in the human body, it's worth it to try and push yourselves into spaces where you're doing something that's A little different.

[00:32:49] The big thing that I got from that practice was how much we all make up a story in here and that anything we're saying in here might not be the truth. It's just what we are thinking right now. I had this experience with also the preposterous retreat, like the men are on one side and the women are another.

[00:33:06] And you know, some people get a single room, but some people are in like a room with five other people. You know, you wake up at like four o'clock in the morning and you're on that cushion meditating from like four until six, and then you eat something. And then from seven until two, and then you eat something.

[00:33:21] And then at, I guess, 7pm, you are allowed to, if you're an old student or returning student, you have a cup of tea and that's it. And then you watch a lesson from Goenka, the person doing the teachings. He died in the 90s. So we're watching a VHS tape. What I heard from a lot of people is how much they created stories about the other people around them.

[00:33:41] When the meditation is over and you finally have a conversation with that person, we were all saying things like, oh, I thought you were going to be like this, or I had a nickname for you. I was like, wow, we were all just making up fantasies about each other without knowing anything about who each other really were.

[00:33:58] And it just helped so much to realize that. This isn't the truth. You know, what I'm thinking in my brain is not the truth. It's just a thought. What I believe is not necessary. It's just what I'm believing. It's not fact. 

[00:34:10] Jill: And we do that every day with people all the time. Even people that we know, we still have stories made up in our minds about who they are.

[00:34:17] And it's not really helpful. Most of the time, it just gets us into trouble. 

[00:34:22] Rose: Yes. And to that end, if you can remember, like, Oh, these are just my thoughts. This isn't real. It kind of, that's also very freeing. It's very, and I think sort of like a little mini ego death. Every time you remind yourself of that, it kills your ego a little bit because it's saying like, this isn't the primary thing.

[00:34:37] Like there are a gajillion minds out there all churning and pumping and doing this dance and. What's most important? What's most important is probably something a lot more oceanic, something a lot more quantum. 

[00:34:54] Jill: We are actually over time, but that's fine. So we'll have to do a coffee in person one day since I am probably 10 minutes away from you just on the other side of the river.

[00:35:03] This was amazing though. It was so much fun. This was probably the most fun I've had in a podcast for sure. So thank you. I really appreciate you taking your time out of your day to chat with me about death and dying and. life and all the good stuff. 

[00:35:18] Rose: All right. 

[00:35:19] Jill: Well, thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Clearly.

[00:35:25] I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Rose as much as I did. In my next episode, I speak with Dr. Viola Pierce, also known as Dr. V, a trailblazing nurse leader whose journey began as an LPN and led to her becoming a doctorally prepared nurse with extensive experience in the emergency room. Dr. V's passion for nursing and education is clear in her role as a nurse business coach, where she empowers nurses to build successful businesses on their own terms.

[00:35:56] Dr. V emphasizes living fully in the dash between birth and death and aims to revolutionize healthcare. She shares how personal loss and witnessing life's extremes in the ER have shaped her compassionate approach to end of life care, connecting deeply with patients and families. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

[00:36:22] Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

[00:36:38] Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount counts. is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution.

[00:36:59] Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.