Life, Death, and Spiritual Growth with Indra Rinzler

Indra Rinzler is an astrologer who has been on a spiritual journey for over 50 years, specializing in Vedic astrology and the Enneagram of Personality. His work focuses on helping people discover their true selves, beyond who they think they are. With a unique perspective shaped by his extensive time in India and a deep commitment to spiritual growth, Indra shares his insights on life, happiness, and the inevitable journey toward death.

Moving to California, he started a commune with a focus on learning about life. This experience, combined with the early loss of both parents, allowed him to follow his path freely, exploring the deeper questions of happiness and fulfillment.

One of Indra's core beliefs is that life isn't designed to make us happy. Instead, happiness is something we must actively pursue, often by letting go of control and surrendering to what is. He discusses the challenges we face—ego, arrogance, insecurity, and societal expectations—that block our path to happiness. Indra suggests that these obstacles are not just to be overcome but are also opportunities for growth, reflecting where we are holding on too tightly to certain beliefs or desires.

Indra also delves into the concept of death, influenced by his study of Indian teachings that view life and death as a continuum. He emphasizes the importance of daily preparation for death, whether through meditation or other practices that encourage letting go of attachments. This preparation isn't about final exams but about daily practices that help us detach from the material world and find peace with what is.

Indra's philosophy extends to the idea of karma and life lessons. He suggests that our lives are shaped by choices made before birth, where we might have agreed to face certain challenges to learn specific lessons. This perspective helps his clients understand their struggles as part of a greater purpose, leading to a sense of relief and acceptance.

In his later years, Indra finds freedom in knowing less and needing less each day. He embraces the idea of surrender, letting go of control, and being content with what is. His journey is one of continual learning and letting go, finding happiness not in changing circumstances but in accepting them.

IndraRinzler.com

IndraRinzler@gmail.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Indra: I die daily and it's the idea that we prepare each day, practice it on a daily basis of letting go of whatever your attachments are. 

[00:00:09] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach here on my show. I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself.

[00:00:22] My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode of Seeing Death Clearly, we're joined by Indra Rinzler, an astrologer who has been on a spiritual journey for over 50 years.

[00:00:44] His path, shaped by the early death of both of his parents and a life changing move to California, has been one of surrender and discovery. Indra shares how life's challenges are not just obstacles, but opportunities for growth. He talks about the Indian teachings on life and death as a continuum, emphasizing the importance of daily preparation for death through letting go of attachments.

[00:01:09] Indra's wisdom offers a unique perspective on finding happiness, not in changing our circumstances, but in accepting them. Join us as we explore life's deeper questions, discovering how to embrace the unknown and find peace in what is. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome Indra to the podcast.

[00:01:28] I really appreciate you coming on. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I kind of poked around a little bit into what you do, but I'm going to let you talk about that. Can you just tell us about who you are, what you do, and why you wanted to come on a podcast to talk about death, dying, and grief?

[00:01:44] Indra: Well, who I am is, that's the question of a lifetime, huh? I'm in my 70s, so I've been contemplating this for a while. This incarnation, I've always wanted to be an astrologer, so I ended up being an astrologer. I, I offer readings all over the world using astrology, Vedic astrology, the astrology of India, and some other modalities, including the Enneagram of personality, to help people to know who they really are, not who they think they are.

[00:02:14] And why I want to come on, I don't know. I don't have an answer. And I'm happy to talk about whatever people want to talk about. And that includes life. Most of it is about life, but it can also be about death. I'm happy to share with you my own unusual perspective. Unusual in the sense that I have a bit of a different background.

[00:02:35] I've been on the spiritual path 50 years. And I've been doing this since It's a long time. So my focus is a little bit different. I've spent a lot of time in India. I'm not into the better life, haven't been into the better life for a long time, if I ever was. So I'm happy to share with you wherever we end up and wherever we go.

[00:02:56] Yeah. 

[00:02:57] Jill: That's my favorite conversations, the ones that just kind of flow where they need to go. And so what did you do? So you said you've been on this spiritual path, but what did you do for a career since you were younger? Was there a career transition at some point? Or has this always been what you've been doing?

[00:03:14] Indra: Well, I dropped out of a MBA program. I was in the number two MBA program in the country at the time and I dropped out. It's not that I didn't want to do business, but I didn't want to work for a corporation. And the MBA was kind of geared in that direction. It was incredibly dull and it wasn't really very business y.

[00:03:33] I moved to California and then it all just started. I started a commune. And we ended up living on an acre in suburbia over the hills from Berkeley. We had 14 people at the height. We had 22 cats and three dogs and a goat and chickens. And we had a teepee. We had a teepee on the land we put on there and we built some cabins.

[00:03:54] And it was a very unusual, that's the way I started because I wanted to learn about life. It was that my parents had died. This is sort of a death discussion. That my parents had died of natural causes. My mother died about a week or two after I graduated college, and my father died two years later, and so I was very free to follow my own path.

[00:04:16] So the question became, how can I get happy? Who is this Indra guy? Didn't have that name in there at the time. And how do I get happy? Because it was clear that life, 1970, you probably say the same thing now, isn't so geared towards happiness. Of course, a lot of work has been done now, and a lot of people have what we call dropped out in order to make that the goal.

[00:04:41] The middle class mainstream life. Has not been focused on happiness and of course everybody is when they reject that realizes that that is what they're looking. That's what they want. That's what they're looking for. 

[00:04:52] Jill: It's true. That's what we're all really looking for. We just sometimes fill that hole with other stuff, right?

[00:04:59] Literally stuff. junk that we don't really need, alcohol, drugs, whatever else it is, to try to fill the fact that we don't really feel happy. And were you able to find that happiness? That's always my biggest question. It's like, overall, I'm happy. But there's definitely times when I'm like, Oh, I don't know.

[00:05:20] I don't know about this life thing. And so were you ever able to make it to a point where you're like, Yep, I'm happy. It's good. 

[00:05:27] Indra: There's so many levels of happiness. There's so many levels of challenges to overcome. There's so much ego. There's so much arrogance. There's so much insecurity. There's so much misconceptions and hypocrisies.

[00:05:40] There's so much, what will people think? And I want it, but I don't want it. So you have to kind of deal with those. What's a spiral? You sort of keep dealing with them, but you deal with them on different levels. You thought you're finished with something. I had a client recently, I remember them saying, I thought I was done with that.

[00:05:59] Well, not really. It was a family thing. I don't think we get done with those, you know, maybe we get done, but I think that most people's idea of done, isn't really done. It's neither good nor bad, it just is, but the fact is there's always more, and anything that we're holding on to, we have to let go of.

[00:06:16] That's a rule, you know, that if we're holding on to something, then it's going to come back. It's going to come back and haunt us. If we're going to talk about death, I'll call it, I'll use the word haunt. That haunting, it blocks our happiness. The happiness is already there. The clarity is already there.

[00:06:31] The enlightenment is already there. It's just about increasing the percentage and being more conscious. Of what you might call good and bad, I don't really like to use those terms, but the stuff that brings us happiness and makes us excited and the stuff that torments us and makes us feel depressed and insecure, they're always there, they're always around the corner when we need them because they reflect back to us where we're holding on.

[00:06:57] Jill: I want to hear about your beliefs about death because you've said they're a little bit different and I love different. I mean, honestly, I don't know what I believe when it comes to death and dying. I believe in many possibilities without holding on to any one way. So I want to hear all about it. What is it that you think?

[00:07:19] What is it that you believe? 

[00:07:20] Indra: Well, I'm not sure what I believe either, and I feel the same way that I had a teacher that said that I'm not into any ism, that I kind of believe that. I believe in disbelieve everything, but the idea here is that the Indian teaching, again, I've been into the Indian teachings a long time, the Indian teaching is that there's no birth and no death, that it's just a continuance, that the physical life It's just a phase of the same thing that it isn't actually changing that we come here.

[00:07:48] The reason I say unusual beliefs is that that's what the podcasters tell me. It's not something that I mean, it's probably true, but it's, it's like, that's what I mostly hear. It's not so much that I'm one as I'm saying that about myself, I'm saying it because that's what I hear people say to me, but the thing is, is that I read recently that the time of death.

[00:08:10] It's set at birth, but how we get there, that's our free will, that that isn't prescribed and that we have a destiny. How we get there and how it manifests is up to us, in a sense. 

[00:08:22] Jill: Yes. Cause I think about the times when you hear stories about somebody having this like crazy freak accident that they die from, right?

[00:08:31] Something super scary. wouldn't expect anybody to die from it. And then there's the people that go through these terrible traumatic, like car accidents or whatever it is. And they miracle, right? It's a miracle that they survived. So sometimes I do wonder about that. Like maybe if it is our time, it really is our time.

[00:08:51] And I might just trip over something and fall and hit my head and that's going to be the end of me because that's my time. I don't know what I believe and I do have a little bit of that. I hope it's not soon, right? Whatever that time of death is, there is still part of me that's like, but I don't want it to be anytime soon.

[00:09:08] You know, I have kids. I want to live a while longer. While also knowing that I don't have control, if it is soon, there's nothing I could do about it. So I try to let go of wanting to control the situation while also wearing my seatbelt and not drinking and driving and doing reasonable things to try to make sure it doesn't happen.

[00:09:30] Indra: Well, letting go of the idea of control is a wonderful way to develop happiness in your life, to bring happiness into your life. Having an opinion and having needs is a wonderful way to let go of happiness. So congratulations on that. 

[00:09:44] Jill: I'm trying. It's definitely been a process for me. I would say I've been on a spiritual path.

[00:09:49] Not as long as you, but also I've been on it for a while now. And it does seem to be the biggest thing that I keep learning is to let go. go of wanting to control, let go of believing that I believe anything to be true, right? Like, just kind of let go of all these different things. Because is that part of what you think has led to you feeling a sense of happiness is almost this, I want to say ability, because it seems to me that either people grasp and hold on to their ideas as truth, and they will fight to the death for that truth, or there's People like us that are kind of like, I don't really know what's true.

[00:10:28] I don't know. And that's okay that I don't know. 

[00:10:31] Indra: Well, I like that phrase is they fight till their death. It's their death possibly because they're fighting the truth. The reality of it is that rather than talk about control, I don't think there is any control. I don't think we have control over anything.

[00:10:43] I like to say, try not to pee and see how much control you have. I don't think we have much control about anything. But the fact is, is that the word that I'd rather use that I refer to this more is the word surrender, that I'm happy to surrender to everything. I'm happy to surrender everything. I'm happy to surrender my opinion.

[00:11:01] I'm happy to surrender my wants. I'm happy to surrender my thinking. I have control. I'm happy to surrender. I'm happy to surrender the life. If you want it, take it. It's okay. I don't really care. I don't really care in this sense of I don't have any needs. That have to be met one way or another, that in letting go of the needs, then the control is completely let go.

[00:11:22] And you live in a constant surrender. Surrender to the moment, surrender to what is, surrender to trusting, to, to, to surrender so that I can trust in each moment that everything is perfect as it is, that I don't need it to change. Would I like it to change? I might like it to be less hot or I like it to be less cold, but I, I want to be happy because as.

[00:11:45] Cold as it gets and as uncomfortable, it's going to be just as uncomfortable when it gets hot at the, uh, in six months. And there I am wanting it to be different again. So I'd rather just let go of all of it and just be happy with what is good or bad, right or wrong. My opinion, not my opinion. It just doesn't seem to matter anymore to me, but being in the seventies, we come to a place in the seventies.

[00:12:12] We know that we know less each day. We're very happy to say that each day I know less than I did the day before. And knowing is in this sense of having opinions and needing things to be a certain way. And us 70 year olds in India, we're very happy to sit around and say, I know less today than I did yesterday.

[00:12:31] And really feeling happy in the freedom of the ability to be able to be. With what is rather than having a need for it to be a certain way. Those were horrible years. We can look back on them and see the horrible years, twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, needing things to be a certain way and unhappy when they aren't and having expectations and needing to be recognized, what a.

[00:12:56] Pain, that is. And that's the well, I, I'm not a death doula like you, but I can imagine that that's part of the relief that people feel on their deathbed is, ah, I don't have to do any of that anymore. Wonderful. 

[00:13:11] Jill: I wish more of them felt relief about it. I think a lot of times they feel regret that they were so worried about all of that stuff and they wasted so much time worrying about all those things.

[00:13:24] rather than living their life and now they're on their deathbed and they're like, Oh, now it all makes more sense. I know now what was important to me, what is important to me because now time is running out and it's really in my face. that I can't do anything anymore. And unfortunately, I think a lot of people are like, why did I waste so much time in my 60s, if they're lucky enough to even get there?

[00:13:50] Why did I waste time worrying about things that didn't matter to me? And that is sad. That makes me really sad. But that's why I have this podcast too, is to partially let people know we need to live our life now. Because if we don't live life now, we're not going to get another chance, even though I have some background that comes more from the Indian Hindu kind of traditions because of my yoga training.

[00:14:17] And so there is a part of me that's like, okay, yes, it's all part of the cycle. We're never really going to die. We can get reincarnated whatnot. But it's not going to be this life. This is the only opportunity I have to be Jill in this body. With Steven, my husband, with my children, this is the only opportunity I have for this life.

[00:14:36] I want to live this life. I don't want to be on my deathbed. Hopefully I'll be in my 90s, but I don't want to be on my deathbed looking back going, man, you wasted your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, your 50s, your 60s, your 70s, worrying about all this stuff rather than being present, being here, enjoying the life that I have.

[00:14:56] It's not perfect, but I can still enjoy it for what it is. 

[00:14:59] Indra: Well, it never occurred to me that I was wasting any time that I do what I do and I do the best that I can in each moment, even in the twenties and thirties. But wasting a time never occurred to me that I'm happy when things happen. I talk about writing articles and writing a book and being in my seventies and doing it and I don't feel like, Oh my God, if I could have done it 30 years ago, I would have.

[00:15:23] It's hard enough now. It wasn't possible before. And so I don't personally get into the regret. I think where we started is as I had written this theme, it's a small part of a book that I've written called I die daily. And it's the idea that we prepare each day that you can't. At the end, have a spring cleaning and say, okay, now I'm ready.

[00:15:45] I think it's better to be prepared each day or earlier in life. And how you do that is, is to whether you do it in meditation and practice and be in your interior quiet, or whether you do it through a meditation technique, where you're pretending you're dead and you're in the room. With your family and you close your eyes and you pretend to not move and just hear and kind of just dissipate yourself and just imagine whatever you want to imagine in terms of what your death might be like, or what it might be like to be there, but not there.

[00:16:17] Practice it on a daily basis of letting go of whatever your attachments are. If you have any feelings of. That you're going to have regrets. Well, my God, that's your to do list that right that day, you know, if it's Bali, then you better get a ticket to Bali. If it's Mongolia, then get your ticket to Mongolia, whatever it is.

[00:16:37] If you can get it out of your head and get it out of your thinking, if it keeps coming up, that's the signal that you need to do something about it. At least that's the way that I feel that if it's such a hassle for me that I haven't, then I want to. But I don't personally. So far feel any of those kinds of things that I've had a full life and I've done a lot of traveling and I've had all the experiences and I feel contented with, at the moment, I feel contented either whatever happens.

[00:17:06] And I think that that's a practice that I'd rather do every day than wait till the final studying before the final is not the way to pass the course. Some people can do that. Some people do that, but I don't think that's, yeah, that's not me. 

[00:17:22] Jill: Yeah, I love that you don't feel that way, but I think that goes to prove is the word that comes to mind, but I don't think we could ever prove anything, right?

[00:17:31] But it goes to show that living your life the way that you wanted to live it. Is really what will help to lead us to the end of life whenever that will be without having those regrets. And I do find it interesting that you said both of your parents had died when you were young enough that you were able to do what you want because, um, especially people of older generations, like my generation, we were already starting to kind of be like, yeah, we're going to do our own thing.

[00:17:59] Younger generations are even more that way. But I know looking at my mother's generation, she's probably older than you, but still approximately around the same generation. There was a lot of, I'm going to go into careers that my parents want, because my parents said, you go to college and you do this career and you do this thing.

[00:18:18] And if you're a woman, get married, you have the kids, like you go down these paths. And then again, people get to the end and they're like, Oh man, I didn't live my life. I live my parents version of my life. And so I do find that interesting that you didn't have that kind of pressure because you didn't have the parents there to say to you, what are you doing?

[00:18:38] Why aren't you finishing your MBA? Why aren't you going into business? Why aren't you doing all these things? Instead, you were like, I'm going to do what I want to do, which is move to California and have a bunch of chickens and live with a bunch of people. I think that's amazing. 

[00:18:51] Indra: Well, I, I think the thing that the thing is to take it a little bit further is that it was a bit of a setup that the parents left at an early age.

[00:18:59] And they both had natural causes that they passed from, but they. Their times seemed to be done, right or wrong, their time seemed to be done. And the fact was, is that they raised me to be independent, that there was enough, that that's possibly why they left so early, is that their, their role was to block that energy, the ancestral, uh, in a conditioned, by the way, I get a lot of, without that, I wouldn't have as many clients that there was a lot of people, the people you talk about.

[00:19:28] That's one of the reasons they come to me. One of the things that we do is dealing with these conditioned behaviors and they're still happening at young age. There's some astrological configurations that make people more susceptible to that or less susceptible to it. I never really had it. I didn't really care, but I was also raised in a way to.

[00:19:48] One of the last things my father said to me, in the last months, which we didn't know was the last months, is, I don't care what you do, I just want you to be happy. And that was the bird leaving the nest, you know, I kind of see the bird flying out from your hands, kind of leaving the nest, and So that was my theme.

[00:20:05] And so the thing was that having the freedom of some inheritance and at the same time, not the conditioning was well, like everything, it's a two edged sword that there's a lot of freedom in it, but then there's also not much grounding. And you don't have anybody to show the wife or the grandkids to, of course they would be long gone by now, but.

[00:20:25] Even longer gone by now, but we each have our karma, so I don't want to use the word karma, but we each have our karma, and I like to say to people, when people are sitting there in a astrology reading, and we're going deep into their life, and they're going, Why am I so screwed up? Why is this so difficult?

[00:20:43] And I say, well, look, I get this feeling, I tell people this story, and so the idea is we're sitting at a table, a kitchen table, I imagine it is a kitchen table there with our g with God, we're in the astral realms, we're in heaven, and maybe we're sitting with our mentor or we're sitting with God or an angel or whatever, and the angel says, Well, Jill, looking at his watch, It looks like you got a life coming up and you say, so God says to you, well, what do you think?

[00:21:11] You know, what about this life? And you say, well, I don't know. And then God says, well, you remember two lifetimes ago when you, yeah. Well, how about this time we, da da da da da da da da da da, We give you the difficulty, the inability to expand, because you made fun of people who weren't sure about themselves, will make you incredibly ungrounded and spaced out about who you are.

[00:21:33] And you didn't like people's arrogance, so we're gonna make you arrogant so you can see what it feels like. In all of these learning situations. That are, I'm going to use the phrase, lesson of the life, which I don't want to, I'm not going to sign that in blood, but the idea that the life has a purpose, you know, they say, what is the purpose?

[00:21:51] Well, the purpose seems to be to learn something I'm going to die trying. I'm not going to give it up. Gonna die, try. I'm not gonna not do it. I'm gonna die. I'm gonna try it. And if I die, then I die trying. At least then I've tried to do this, but when I say that to people, then they kind of take a deep breath and say, oh yeah, that's why I am here.

[00:22:10] That's why it is. And everybody seems to feel really relaxed from that, rather than, oh my God, I'm on the clock. You know? They say, I feel, it's not a saying, it's a feeling as they feel like, yes, everybody understands it. You put it in that context, everybody understands it and understands the greater purpose and sees that it is their challenge and good will come from it.

[00:22:32] The people who find me are all spiritually related. If they don't, not spiritually related, they don't seem to come to me, which is great because that's what I want, because that's the focus I wanna pick it up by, is that when we do it that way, we're like on a team. Before that, we're like struggling alone and then all of a sudden we're on a team.

[00:22:51] Whether that team is God and us, or all the angels, or the whole heaven, however big we can make the team, we have that opportunity. Without thinking that way, then you get to the deathbed and you say, I've wasted all this time. And even that might be the lesson of the life. 

[00:23:09] Jill: It really might be. Do you think that when we die, Because again, I'm kind of on the fence about ghosts or spirits or whatever you want to call it, right?

[00:23:19] Do you think that when we die, the soul could be stuck here on earth that maybe for whatever reason, sometimes people that is part of their, I know you said like, you don't really like to use the word karma, but I think most people have a vague understanding of what it means. with karma. So do you think that that could be some soul's karma is to also live out part of their life, part of their existence outside of a body, but still here on this plane?

[00:23:46] Because I don't know, again, it's just one of those things that I've thought about, but I don't really have any answer. So I'm curious what you think about that. 

[00:23:52] Indra: I would imagine that that's totally possible. I mean, I think that anything is possible. So that is certainly within the realm. We certainly hear stories.

[00:23:59] I have a feeling that it won't be a complete surprise because there's been enough near death experiences and there's been enough saints that have talked about it that supposedly are having the real experience of being on these, to see through the veils and see through the different planes. And many people say the same kind of thing.

[00:24:16] And so my experience of life, and I think this is a really important lesson, is that there aren't really too many surprises. I say to people, they say, I didn't want to be a doctor. So I say, it's because of conditioning. 40 years old. So I say, well, when did you know they say, Oh, well, when I was 22, it's not a surprise, you know, I say, well, when did you know you didn't want to be with this person?

[00:24:39] I remember one time people saying, how long have you been together? 12 years. When did you know? Well, after two years, some people say, well, after the first week, it's not a surprise. And so I just don't think that the reality. It's gonna be close to the expectations. I mean, within that realm, all of the things are the possibilities.

[00:24:57] But I think that they're all possible because they're given to us. I don't think that life is meant to be a mystery. They may want to make law and order a mystery. They may want to make, uh, Murder, She Wrote a mystery. But I don't think the life is a mystery. I like to say this is a sort of a joke is that God says to Mrs.

[00:25:15] God, where should I hide? And Mrs. God says, well, put it in their heart. They'll never find it there. And it's like all the secrets are kind of transparent. Does she like me or not like me? Well, she's hanging with me. She probably is liking me. It's only my insecurity that's doubting me. The reality of it is, is that if she, Didn't like you, she wouldn't be there.

[00:25:36] We can make it be a surprise, but the fact is it's not really much of a surprise. Afterwards, how was your trip? Well, it was a total surprise, but it's exactly what I expected, even though I didn't have any expectations. Right? I'm just going to extrapolate from there and say that, I'll tell you, uh, one of the things I wanted to say is that some of my thinking around death change, when I had a teacher that said that we'd done this a thousand times.

[00:26:02] This is nothing new. Every day we do this, not we do it, but it's done every day. It's just, it's like every day you're born, you come into the body and you leave the body. And it's like, it's no big deal. And when I looked at it from that way, when we look at it from fear and, Oh my God, and what will people do and how will it work?

[00:26:21] And they can't live without me and I can't live without them. All of those things block the flow of the intuition of, you know, I want to be with my maker versus the idea of just that I've done it before and it's like, what do you call it? You never forget how to ride a bike. 

[00:26:36] Jill: I have a question that I'm trying to figure out how to word it because you said it again just now about like being with our maker and you said God, right?

[00:26:44] And I think a lot of people, when we picture God, we picture the old dude in the cloud. But I think if we take away that image, right, that there's just. a being, an entity, whatever it is that created all of this and created all of us. But then if we have lived thousands of lives, but yet our population is growing, how is there more of us in human form?

[00:27:09] If we all started somewhere that got reincarnated and that maybe there is this God that created all of us. How does that happen? My brain, I think about some crazy stuff sometimes where I'm like, I love to think about it. I have no answers. So I don't know. I figure you're a good person to ask what your thoughts are on that.

[00:27:28] Indra: I read in a book that all souls, we talk about old souls, but all souls were conceived or whatever developed made at the same time that there are souls and why there are so many humans now and weren't before. I don't know, but I just imagine is just that there are that they've worked up what seems to be some sort of a promotion system and that enough people have been promoted that now we're in it.

[00:27:52] I mean, it's such a incredible time of life. If you talk about the 1300 against the 1300s, but you talk about how much light there was. It's so much how fast you could grow on earth at 1300. And now you talk about now, it's like we're on a different planet because there's so much opportunity and it's so fast and every day is like a lifetime.

[00:28:12] Like every day is the lifetime of the bug. We have that every day. We can have that every day from sunrise to sunset. I think of God more as an energy, more than as a deity. The energy is just righteousness. The energy is just the flow of life. The energy is love. And I don't mean the feeling of love so much, which it also is, but just the flow.

[00:28:34] The energy is just rightness. It's just that the meal cooked to the perfect temperature and served in the perfect way with the perfect wine. That's what it is, or the perfect company, if that's what it is, or the birds singing, if that's what it is, whatever it is, it's just the perfection. It's just a natural flow.

[00:28:53] That is a sense of being totally conscious. is the flow. Being unconscious is not the flow. It still is God, but it's not in the flow. That doesn't seem to be what it feels like, but it still is God. It still is spirit. So does that make any sense? 

[00:29:10] Jill: Yeah, for sure. And that's the way I try to envision God as well is an energy that is love.

[00:29:18] But I like the way that you said it's like that feeling of having the perfect meal and the perfect glass of wine. Those moments when life just feels. good, right? It just it feels good that that's what God would be is that feeling. So yeah, that's really helpful to me. When I practice meditation at a Buddhist center in Philadelphia, one of the things that we've talked about is they call it like flashes or glimpse, right?

[00:29:45] That like you get these flashes of enlightenment, essentially. And I think those moments when things are just like, It just feels different. It's like almost like now I noticed that things almost seem brighter, things are more vibrant, it just feels different. And I'm like, Oh, it's one of those glimpses.

[00:30:02] And then I'm like, Oh, but now you're trying to hold on to it, let it go. So I think that's the thing that you're describing is that same feeling that I do sometimes get. And then my human this wants to hold it. And then it's like, poof, Then it goes away. 

[00:30:17] Indra: That's it. What you're looking for is to put those moments together.

[00:30:21] I guess that's what enlightenment would be, 

[00:30:23] Jill: right? 

[00:30:23] Indra: That's it. Yeah. Well, I mean, enlightenment might be deeper than the glimpse, but yes, it's being in that continuous. It's never leaving. It's undisturbed, undisturbed consciousness, 24 seven undisturbed consciousness, just being in that experience, being in that feeling.

[00:30:37] But can I ask you a question that I ask people? Let's say that we're ethereal beings. Okay. That we're souls. But, so the question I want to ask is, I ask people is this, how much of our life, what's the percentage that we're in the human body? If we're an ethereal being, what's the percentage of the time that we're in a physical human form?

[00:30:57] Jill: And just without thinking about it, hearing the question, it's a very small percent, but I don't know why that was like in the teens, right? Like it's actually a small percent. And then when I had that thought, I actually felt a little relieved. I was like, oh, that's actually kind of nice. That's a nice thought to think that as good as my life is, right, I will 100 percent say I am privileged on so many levels.

[00:31:22] There's still so much pain and suffering in the world that sometimes I find it very hard to exist. In this form, right, without being swallowed up by the pain and the suffering in the world, I might have pain and suffering. I mean, I have still had things happen to me that have caused me pain and suffering.

[00:31:38] So when I had that initial thought of actually, it's a small percentage that I exist in any human body, this one or any other one, part of me was like, Oh, that's actually really nice. That's good to know. I don't know if that's true or not. But that was my initial thought was it's actually a small percentage.

[00:31:56] Indra: So when I say to people, I do this because the 12th house is ethereal energy, and so if somebody has their Mars, for example, in the 12th house, I say that you need to bring your doing down the physical plane, because I say that, yes, it's a small percentage, so I say, let's say it's 20. I think that's high, but let's just say 20.

[00:32:16] Still a small lump that's only, that's like one fifth of your total time, but the reality of it is when you say small percentage, I think in terms of really less than a percent and it could be, it could be a hundredth of a percent, it could be a thousandth of a percent. But the point is, even if it's in the teens, the question is, is that it's special being in the body and there are, and this is what I'm getting to.

[00:32:38] So while I'm in the body, which is why I'm suggesting these to my clients, that's why I bring this up is that let's. Do what we can in the body. Let's get the most out of the body while we're in the body. Because the fact is that it's a pretty special circumstance. We're told it's special, that it doesn't happen very often, and da da da da.

[00:33:00] Whatever the truth is, the fact is that it does seem to be A special time. It is difficult. I like to say, well, why? Okay. So I like to say that we're in heaven and God says to us, you really have an issue with jealousy. Well, I'm in heaven. Everything's wonderful. And we're total angels. And I don't have any idea what you're talking about, God, though.

[00:33:21] I do love ya. Just using him as an in the herds and analogy. Okay. But the thing God says, well, okay, let's flash down to your next life. Now you're sitting there. Okay. And your mate is walking away from you holding the hand of your best friend. Now you have an idea of jealousy and envy that you don't have in heaven.

[00:33:42] And so the value here is that it's so darn dense down here that it's so obvious even I can get it. Is that the pain is so real and the suffering is so real in, in heaven. Perhaps it's just sort of a remembrance and it's sort of like everything is so wonderful and so beautiful that we can't let's grow.

[00:34:00] Oh, I'll do it tomorrow. Today is wine tasting day. So I'm not going to worry about it today, but down here, I got to deal with it. That's the value of being down here. That's the work and that's the joy. The joy is to work on it and let it go and be with it and to have a good laugh and to not take it so serious.

[00:34:20] Jill: I try not to take it too serious, but there's definitely days it's easier than others. And that is one thing that I've been trying to really do is enjoy. Being in a body because I know, like you were talking earlier about practicing every day, pretending that we're dying, something that I do sometimes is, especially when I'm having a hard time being present, like if the kids are being noisy, and there's just a lot of stuff going on that I find myself wanting to retreat to like, go to my bedroom, have quiet to get into my phone to try to block out what's going on around me, right?

[00:34:57] When I'm feeling that whole, you know, I'll pretend that I'm dead and that I'm a ghost and what would I be doing if I had five minutes to be in this body as a ghost? Would I be sitting there staring at my phone or would I be touching my child's face or touching their hair or drinking something or smelling a flower?

[00:35:18] Like what would I be doing with those five minutes? not staring at a phone, not hiding in my bedroom by myself, not doing the things that I sometimes feel that I quote unquote need to do in order to be okay with what's going on around me. There's really just so many things that I will do now in a body that I will not be able to do once I'm out of this body.

[00:35:41] So I do that practice now and just pretend that I'm dead. And what would I be doing if I had five minutes in this body? And most of the time, it's either exactly what I'm doing, which makes me feel good. I'm like, Oh, perfect. I'd be out on my porch, watering my flowers, looking at them, really paying attention.

[00:35:59] Or it's, I absolutely would not be doing what I'm doing, so I'm not going to do it right now either. I'm going to change and do something that will bring me more pleasure in this body. But it's a practice like everything else. 

[00:36:11] Indra: Going through the process of death, that is living. That is being alive and being aware and being conscious.

[00:36:18] Meeting our situations halfway. Meeting our situations with wisdom and consciousness and love and grace. When we do that, then we're alive. Breathing but dead. You know, some of us are breathing. We have moments of breathing, but dead. That is alive. And that is the goal. That is the solution to the regret on deathbed.

[00:36:36] Jill: That's, again, why I'm trying to do this is because I really don't want to get to the end of this life. Having regrets. And I don't think that we can fully eliminate that, right? I'm sure there's going to be things that I'm going to be like, Oh damn, well, you did mess that part up. But for the most part, I want to feel that I lived my life and that I enjoyed my life without harming people.

[00:37:01] Cause I think sometimes people, when they hear me say. I enjoy my life without worrying about what other people think about me. That doesn't mean that I'm gonna go out and hurt people and be like, well, I don't care what you think. Like, no, it's not that. It's also that if you think I'm weird, if you don't like what I do, if it's not hurting you, that doesn't matter to me then, right?

[00:37:22] If you don't like it, that's your problem. That's not my problem. 

[00:37:25] Indra: Well, that's an important thing to realize is that other people can't make us happy or unhappy, and the outer circumstances don't make us happy or unhappy. I have clients that want to find, in the location astrology I do, they want to find a place of peace.

[00:37:39] And I tell them that peace is an inner job, that it isn't an outer job. You don't go somewhere and find peace if you didn't bring it with you. So. That is the inner work and not the outer work. And that's probably why we're here, is to learn all these things. And it's an opportunity, it's a very dense plane that the molecules have been slowed down enough in order to create this dense plane that makes it so obvious that we can get the things that we can't, the subtleties that we can't get any other way.

[00:38:08] Jill: I love it. Well, we are coming up on our time. I know you mentioned you had written a book. What do you want people to know about you and your work? 

[00:38:16] Indra: What do I want people to know? I want people to love themselves. I help people to become who they really are, not who they think they are. And I use astrology and Enneagram and a few other modalities in readings that are long and very life changing.

[00:38:33] I have a website that you can read about me on IndraRensler. com. And I started with astrology more than 50 years ago, it took me about 40 years to be related to the readings that I do now. And even in the last two or three years, they have deepened and changed. Even in the last year, they keep deepening and changing.

[00:38:54] And much, much to my own surprise, how we think things don't change, but they do change. And, and I believe that we teach what we teach because it's what we need to learn. And so I thank all of my clients for helping me to learn my lessons to helping me to feel happiness and joy in when I have a reading and when I don't.

[00:39:17] Jill: I will put a link to your website in the show notes. So people can easily find you and get a reading from you. Cause now I'm like, Ooh, maybe I need a reading. This sounds fascinating, but you so much. I really appreciate you taking your time today. 

[00:39:31] Indra: Yeah. for having me on. 

[00:39:33] Jill: In my next episode, we dive into the first part of a two part interview with Rose Loardo, an artist based in South Philadelphia.

[00:39:43] We explore her unique creation, the rave coffin. A soft, womb like installation that challenges our collective discomfort with death. This immersive piece features recordings of stories narrated by her Filipino father, alongside quirky ads for a fictional used coffin service. Rose reflects on how society shies away from death, contrasting it with the past when death was a shared, intimate experience within communities.

[00:40:11] We talk about the importance of confronting our fears, whether through art, conversation, or personal exploration as a way to gain a deeper understanding of life's impermanent. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated.

[00:40:31] Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free, whether your donation is large or small, every amount, is valuable.

[00:40:51] I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution. Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.