Halo Nest: Poetry and Grief with Sean Lynch

Sean Lynch has been writing his whole life. His first poetry book was published over a decade ago in 2013; since then, he's released four more. His latest book, “Halo Nest: poems on grief” is a deeply personal collection about grief, began nearly seven years ago after his mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2016. Sean's mother battled the disease for about a year before passing away at 59. 

The new poetry book is intimately tied to places, Sean often visited his mother at Our Lady of Lourdes, the grief he felt during these times heightened his awareness of his surroundings, connecting him deeply to the spaces he frequented.

His mother passed away quickly, despite initial expectations. Sean vividly remembers being at his parents' place in Wildwood when she was brought home for hospice care. The emotional experience of seeing his family gather and the strange coincidences of numbers around her death stuck with him, influencing his poetry.

Writing this book was a cathartic process for Sean. Initially, he didn't intend to write about his mother's illness, but being a prolific writer at the time, he naturally recorded his experiences. One poignant poem, "The Day After," captures his raw emotions following his mother's death.

Sean's journey through grief was supported by antidepressants for several years, though he found the grieving process different when he stopped taking them. He talks about the balance of maintaining one's life amidst grief and the desensitization to death in public spaces.

Sean has had book readings throughout the Philadelphia region and has one coming up at the Pen and Pencil Club in Philadelphia on July 14th. His book, “Halo Nest: poems on grief” is available on Amazon and you can find it at the link below.

https://www.amazon.com/Halo-Nest-poems-Sean-Lynch/dp/B0D1NXJT8L

https://linktr.ee/seanlynchpoet

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Sean: People say it doesn't get any easier. I think it does get easier. Writing this book was kind of a catharsis for me. Publishing it now, so many years later, is a part of that. 

[00:00:10] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, Dying grief and life itself.

[00:00:23] My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. Today, I'm joined by poet Sean Lynch, whose new collection, Halo Nest, Poems on Grief, is an exploration of grief inspired by the experience of caring for his mother during her battle with ovarian cancer, her death, and the grief after death.

[00:00:52] We discuss the power of writing through difficult times in life, as well as the balance of living life with grief and suffering. and society's desensitization to death. Sean has had book readings throughout the Philadelphia region and has one coming up at the Pen and Pencil Club in Philadelphia on July 14th.

[00:01:09] And I'll be there. So if you're in the area, stop by and say hello. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Sean. Thank you so much for coming on. Our mutual friend Tom sent me your contact information. He basically was like, you need to meet this guy. He just put out a book about poems about grief.

[00:01:29] And so you did send me a PDF of your book and I read through it. And it's interesting because it's all places that I know. I grew up in South Jersey, Wildwood, South Philly, all that stuff. I'm really looking forward to talking to you more about your experience. Do you want to tell us a little bit about you, who you are, even outside of being an author, whatever you want to share to kind of give us an idea of who Sean is.

[00:01:55] Sean: I've been writing my whole life. My first book of poetry was published a little over 10 years ago in 2013 and I've had four small books of poetry published besides this one. This one I started writing almost seven years ago and it's very personal obviously. They're poems about grief. My mom was diagnosed with ovarian 2016.

[00:02:20] She fought her battle against cancer for about a year or so. But as many people know, ovarian cancer is very difficult to diagnose first of all, and oftentimes, unfortunately, it's diagnosed too late. I believe she was stage three when they diagnosed her. So even though she got a hysterectomy and went through a lot of chemo and radiation, it was about a year, maybe a year and a half long battle with cancer.

[00:02:48] And at that time, I had just put out, I think, my second poetry book. And I was getting really involved with social justice oriented things. I worked with this non profit called Moonstone Art Center. They hold the most literary readings in Philadelphia. I hosted for them, edited books for them. I'm still connected with them, love them.

[00:03:10] Right now I'm working as an archivist for the Nick Virgilio Writers House. Editing a manuscript about correspondence, uh, between these poets and editors in the sixties. And I'm a bartender because poetry doesn't pay. So I also make money bartending, which it's fun. 

[00:03:28] Jill: Yeah. I come from food service and I have.

[00:03:31] bartended. I've been a waitress. I've worked all around food service. And actually right now, I'm getting back into teaching serve safe a little bit more because same kind of thing. Being a death doula is not really paying my bills. Running my podcast. I don't make any money from it. I love it. Not complaining.

[00:03:50] But yeah, I totally understand that. And when your mother got diagnosed, how old was she? 

[00:03:55] Sean: She was 57. 

[00:03:58] Jill: Oh, too young. 

[00:03:59] Sean: Yeah, maybe 58. She was 59 when she passed away. 

[00:04:04] Jill: I'm so sorry to hear that. And I know in your book of poems, it mentions that your mother was from South Philly and she was going. to a hospital that's very close to where I'm at, Our Lady of Lords.

[00:04:19] I know one of your poems even mentioned that people don't always know this, but Walt Whitman, the poet, his tomb essentially, because it's not just a headstone, is really, it's like hidden, it's like almost underneath the street right outside the hospital. And I actually stumbled on that one day. When my mother was at Lady of Lords, and I was trying to pick her up, and I couldn't get anywhere to park right away, and I stalled some time, so I was like, I'm gonna drive around the cemetery, because I love cemeteries, and I found it, and I was like, look at that, people have no idea that it's there.

[00:04:52] So, there was just so many things that I was reading, and I was like, oh, I know that place. 

[00:04:57] Sean: The book is very much connected to place. as a setting. I think partly because when you're in a state of grieving or leading up to grief, dealing with a loved one who's terminally ill, I think you feel more connected to the spaces around you in a way.

[00:05:18] I think you're more aware of nature and especially, obviously a cemetery that's going to be right next to the hospital where my mom was But I knew beforehand because it's a destination for poets to go to Walt Whitman's tomb, and I had been familiar with every year the nonprofit I work for the Nick Virgilio writer's house.

[00:05:39] Nick Virgilio is buried in Harley cemetery, pretty close to Walt Whitman's tomb, and it's a beautiful. The headstone is an actual lectern that you can stand and read at, and we have a poetry reading every year at the end of June. And one of his most famous haiku is on the lectern, Lily out of the water, out of itself.

[00:05:59] And then as you know, it's a beautiful spot with that, that pond or kind of lake right there. So there, there's a few famous local people buried in that cemetery. It's a really beautiful cemetery. 

[00:06:10] Jill: It is a really beautiful cemetery and I drive by it all the time and I want to explore it further because it's actually a pretty big cemetery.

[00:06:19] It's one of my favorite places to go to, is always cemeteries, even since I was a kid. I just, I don't know, I find them very calm and peaceful. It's a nice place to kind of be by myself and just walk around and I've always loved them. Oh, definitely. And 

[00:06:33] Sean: next time you're there, check out right by Whitman's Tomb, the tree that's right next to it.

[00:06:38] There's a bunch of carvings in it, people carved their names, and a few famous people have carved their names into it, like Allen Ginsberg, I believe, has his name carved into that tree, and some other poets. 

[00:06:49] Jill: Oh, I didn't actually know that much. I will for sure go check it out, because I try to get over there every once in a while, just because it's pretty neat.

[00:06:57] When your mother was in the hospital, how long was she? Because I know you said in the book that she actually moved to the house that your family owned in Wildwood for her actual time of death. How long was she in the hospital for before she ended up being moved? 

[00:07:17] Sean: She was admitted a few times for like extended periods of time.

[00:07:21] So, at Our Lady of Lourdes, she was admitted a few different times for days on end, or like a week or two, and then at Cooper Hospital, MD Anderson Cancer Center, that's where she got her hysterectomy, and she was admitted there for a while, so she got her treatment at both of those hospitals, and then We weren't sure, and I'm sure you know this in your line of work.

[00:07:43] We weren't sure how long it would take for her to die. And they said it could be anywhere for a week or two or however long, but it actually happened really quickly. It happened in just a matter of days. So she came out of Our Lady of Lords. They drove her down in an ambulance to my parents place in Wildwood.

[00:08:00] And I went down there, I think a day later. And I told my siblings, I was like, Hey, you guys got to get down here as soon as possible. And they were like, well, we were told it'll be a while, but I was like, I can tell it's, it's not going to be. So luckily pretty much everyone got there in time. They were in different places, like in the book, my dad went to the ATM, I don't know, to pay somebody something, but it's like the ATM receipt read the same exact.

[00:08:30] Time when the hospice worker recorded her time of death. And I don't know if you've noticed, there's a few different things about numbers in there, the number seven, there's so many different numbers, sevens that showed up. Like my mom was born in July, the seventh month, her time of death was. 1. 27 PM and it was April 27th.

[00:08:48] So I don't know those things matching up, I'm not into numerology or anything like that, but I thought it was interesting that that number kept showing up. 

[00:08:57] Jill: Yeah. I find things like that interesting as well. And I don't know, they don't really mean anything. But also, there is something that that sticks out in my mind when I notice a repeating number and I'm like, I don't know, does it mean it's meant to be?

[00:09:11] Or does it mean there's something magical about it? Like, I don't know, but I do find it interesting. And it's, and you said your mother died in 2017, correct? Yeah. Okay, yes. So we're recording this. I know it's not going to come out for a little bit, but we're recording this pretty close to your mother's death anniversary then.

[00:09:28] Mm hmm. 

[00:09:29] Sean: Yeah, that was a week ago, April 27th. 

[00:09:33] Jill: Over the last few years, how's that been for you? Getting closer to the anniversary, has it changed at all? Does it ever get easier? What's that been like for you? I 

[00:09:43] Sean: think for me personally, there is more of a detachment when time goes by. People say it doesn't get any easier.

[00:09:50] I think it does get easier, uh, not that you feel any less close to that person that's passed away. But you've had the time to cope and to think about it. You've gone through all of the stages of grief and the processing of it. Writing this book was kind of a catharsis for me and publishing it now. So many years later is a part of that.

[00:10:12] I think I was too close to it before, like when I kind of finished writing it. During the height of lockdown, during the height of the pandemic, maybe 2021 is when this book really came completely together. And so I had to let go of it for a little bit, but now I think it is easier. People say it doesn't get any easier, but It's different for everyone.

[00:10:34] Jill: Yeah, for sure. It's definitely going to be different for everybody, everybody's experience. And I know, in the book, you even mentioned how the day after your mother died, you had tried to kind of write a poem about it. And how did you find the process of writing? Was it something that when you were in it, it was a great way to get the emotions and the feelings out for you?

[00:10:56] Was it more like I'm going to record all of this because I don't want to forget it? What was your main motivation in writing during that time period? 

[00:11:05] Sean: I didn't consciously, I didn't deliberately write thinking that I was going to write a book about it. I didn't even write about it consciously in order to use it as a tool to help me with catharsis or the grieving process at all.

[00:11:20] It wasn't a deliberate choice on my part. At that time, I was just a prolific writer. I wrote a poem almost every day. I was really good at it back then. Not so much now because with my job, I do a lot of writing that is technical. I do some grant writing. I do editing and other kinds of writing that poetry.

[00:11:42] So that kind of takes up some of the creative juices, your creative energy, writing in other avenues of writing. I wrote a novel this past year. I finished writing it a few months ago and looking for a publisher for that. So at the time I was writing lots of poems anyway, and that poem that you were talking about.

[00:12:00] It's really short. I can actually read it out loud if you want me to. 

[00:12:03] Jill: Please. Yeah. 

[00:12:04] Sean: I got the book here. That poem that you mentioned, I felt at the time that I had writer's block. I was like, uh, this is not a poem. I don't think it's a good poem. But then you just let it sit for a while and then you go back to it and maybe change a little bit of it.

[00:12:19] And then. It becomes a poem. Even years later, you're going back to a poem that you wrote some years ago, and that process can take years, but I feel like that's the best way of writing, is just constantly rewriting, especially with poetry. So I found it, this is um, the poem, it's called The Day After. I try to write a poem the day after mother's death.

[00:12:39] Close to the ocean, I find myself cringe at any noise similar to a painful moan, a sigh, a laugh, a seagull's cry, All strike a chord. My insides feel like the name of the island I stand on, Wildwood. My tangled branches twang out of tune and longing for the now perceived perfect pitch of the past. 

[00:13:01] Jill: I love it.

[00:13:01] It's beautiful. I really enjoyed all of the poems in your book. And I'm not. a writer by any means. I write when I have to, but writing poetry has never been my thing. And sometimes I find even reading poetry, I get a little, I don't know, I get a little lost where like they start to use words and I'm like, I don't even get what you're trying to say here.

[00:13:23] Like, I understand they have a point in doing it. But that's actually one of the things that I really liked about your book was that reading the poems, I was like, Oh, I get this, I get where he's going, I get what he's saying. There's not like all this poetic wording, I guess that makes it rhyme, but also makes it not make any sense in my head.

[00:13:40] So yeah, I really liked it. That was one of my favorites. And I think partially because it really speaks to this feeling that after somebody that we love dies, there is part of us that kind of feels like the world has to end, that like things have to stop. And it doesn't. You wake up the next morning and you're like, Oh, I'm still here.

[00:14:00] Life is still going, people are still working, things are still moving on, like nothing changed. But our world has changed so drastically when somebody that we love dies. 

[00:14:11] Sean: It's difficult because obviously that's a cliché, the world moves on, life goes on. But there's a reason why clichés exist, because they have universal appeal, and it's what people go through over and over again all the time.

[00:14:26] So that one of the things about writing poetry is You obviously have to avoid cliches, but you can subvert cliches, you can take them and twist the wording around or try to find a way to express a cliche in a new original way. 

[00:14:41] Jill: I think you did that very well with that poem. Because that's exactly what I thought about was that feeling without the cliche wording behind it, which I do appreciate because I know that's something that I hear so often from people that are grieving is as a society, we don't grieve well.

[00:14:58] And so most of us don't really know what to say or what to do. We regurgitate these cliches of they're in a better place, they're not suffering anymore. And you're like, okay, great. But also, this doesn't help. This I liked the way that your poem kind of explained that feeling without it being those words of, the world keeps moving and feels like it shouldn't, but it does.

[00:15:21] Sean: Right. Because it is an experience that is so unique to each and every one of us, but also in an oxymoronic way. It's not unique, it's universal, but each person's own experience with it is still unique. It's a contradiction. It's the most universal experience, but also each and every one of us experience it in a unique way.

[00:15:40] And we feel like we're the only person who's going through that at the moment. Even if you're aware that you're not the only person going through it, you have this emotion that it's so personal to you. That's part of the reason why I, for a long time, I didn't really want to put this book out. I went back and forth about it.

[00:15:56] I kind of had like a conundrum about it because it is so personal, and I was worried that I was exploiting the suffering that my mom went through so as to share my poetry in some way, especially because I showed it to one friend of mine who is a poet, and he was like, well, these are all about yourself.

[00:16:20] Talk more about her and her experience. And it was great advice because I did add in some poems that were specifically about her without me being involved as a speaker, but it's so difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes, especially your mother's. I didn't want to try to write a poem from her voice because I didn't go through what she went through.

[00:16:43] I went through what I went through and I'm sharing my experience, not her experience. 

[00:16:49] Jill: For me, one of the parts that kind of like, Choked me up the most was where I didn't think about the fact that her mother might still be alive. And when you mentioned your grandmother calling your aunt a bitch or something, and even your father saying he lost his best friend and uh, thinking about that makes me want to cry now because it's the experience that we have.

[00:17:11] Our. Partners in life. They are our best friends. One day my husband's gonna die or I'm gonna die first, but either way, one of us is gonna be left behind. Hopefully our children will still be here. Hopefully we will outlive them. But saying to our children, I just lost my best friend. And like that, that's real, right?

[00:17:29] That, that again, that makes me want to cry now just thinking about it. It's a real experience. And I'm glad that you shared that. While also not trying to put yourself in their place and explain it any further of like my father and my mother they were together for so long or whatever it was, you just kind of left it there for us to interpret it our own way and in some ways put ourselves in their place as a mother.

[00:17:50] I don't want my children to die before me. They're Breaks my heart to think your grandmother had to experience that. 

[00:17:56] Sean: Yeah. And I think that was it for her because she died like nine months after that. She went downhill after that because it was so hard for her to see her daughter to go. And my dad too, I, there's a few different poems where I mentioned him.

[00:18:11] He was there by her side, driving her around, helping her. He basically lived in the hospital with her. They let him, even though they have the rules, they have visiting hours. He would sleep over. You, they let him. was there all the time. He was always by her side, but I didn't write as much about him partly because I think he's a very private person.

[00:18:31] I didn't want to show too much of him and what he went through. I am a little worried. He hasn't read it yet. I think, I think he'll like it. Not think it was too much, but that was one of the things I'm worried about too, is because I didn't mention too much about my siblings or other people because I wanted to respect their privacy in a way, wasn't sure exactly how much they want it to be seen in that.

[00:18:55] And also I just didn't feel like it was my place, you know, 

[00:18:59] Jill: it's a hard line that I walk even with talking. About experiences that I've had myself with family members and death and grief with clients or people that I volunteered helping where I want to share, but without violating their privacy, trying to interpret their experience like their experience is not my experience.

[00:19:22] I can share what I went through or what I'm observing, but I can't share their experience. I don't even remember seeing anything about siblings in there until you just mentioned it. 

[00:19:32] Sean: I don't think I mentioned my siblings at all. There's a few poems about my dad or mentioning him. They're not about him.

[00:19:39] There's a few mentions of him, but no, and that was definitely a conscious choice later on, not while I was writing them, but when I was Putting this book together and editing it for so long, I was like, mom, I'm not going to create something and just to throw it in there or the privacy thing. And I was also worried about my mom's privacy, but that's another thing that that's difficult to deal with.

[00:20:00] That somebody who is dead now, what is their privacy writing about someone who's died, especially someone so close to you and about how they experienced death and leading up to that. I wanted to show, obviously, that she was. Strong and fought and that's another cliche people use, right? They fight their battle against cancer, but it really is.

[00:20:22] It's just the most visceral of like fighting. And she was extremely strong. She probably lasted a lot longer than. I was worried about showing too much. I didn't want to describe so much suffering, because I felt like that might have been an invasion of privacy. But I did get pretty dark there at points, I think.

[00:20:45] But I tried not to go too far. 

[00:20:47] Jill: I don't think there was any spots in it that I was reading, but of course, I don't know. I think I'm not as afraid of the darkness as some people are. So even if other people might interpret it as like, whoa, that was a little dark and heavy. I'm like, it's real. Like that's the real experience of what people go through.

[00:21:03] Part of my goal in having this podcast even is helping people be able to read and learn and understand the realities that people go through without fearing it. Because the more that we can prepare, the easier it will be if we have to experience it ourselves, or if somebody dies that we're really close to, being able to read your stories and read your experiences makes people feel not so alone, because that's one of the things that's so isolating, is that we feel so alone in our grief.

[00:21:37] When it feels like nobody can really understand partially because again, we don't really talk about it and so we all hold it in. So I appreciate that you wrote the book and that it is mainly from your experience. You weren't sharing too much of your mother's experience or your father's or whoever else.

[00:21:54] And were you there with her a lot through her treatments and even at her death or were you kind of not around as much? I know we all live our lives so it's hard to be there. Yeah. Even as much as we want. 

[00:22:06] Sean: I was there a lot. I lived in South Philly at the time and would take the Paco over to Our Lady of Lords, the ferry I have stopped right there.

[00:22:15] So I was able to visit her a lot. I was with her when she died. It was me and the hospice worker and I believe my aunt. Maybe one or two other people in the room. There's other people in the other room. It's difficult for everyone, but I feel like you probably experienced this, but people, they have to take a break and they go into the other room because it's so hard to be around your mom or loved one who's dying people.

[00:22:41] and come back in, but I, I was there, I was up all night. I couldn't sleep. So I just stayed up. I was up for like 48 hours straight. I was there a lot. And so it was my siblings and my whole family showed up, which was great. But yeah. It spent a lot of time in that hospital and felt a connection to it. And it's so weird.

[00:23:03] So I just went back for the first time to Our Lady of Lords because my dad was in there for a couple of days. He insisted on going there because he feels so connected to it. I don't know if it's like a nostalgia thing, but he was born there and. His wife was there and his mom, his grandmother worked there.

[00:23:21] So I feel like there's also like this ancestral connection to the place because it's so many of my family members were like born there or were there. I personally wouldn't want to be admitted there. I would go to a different hospital, but the building itself, it's beautiful on the outside, on the inside.

[00:23:37] It's. very old and kind of falling apart, but there's the statue on the top of it of the Virgin Mary is, is pretty beautiful. You can see it for miles. And then there's the solarium at the top of the hospital where you can see all of Philadelphia and the surrounding area on the sixth floor. And that's also really beautiful.

[00:23:57] So I spent a lot of time there. And writing, and there's poems in there that are set there. 

[00:24:03] Jill: I didn't actually know that they had the Solarium. I know the statue on the top, I actually take that Patco often into Philly, and Ferry Avenue is the stop that I usually start and end at. You can see that statue of the Virgin Mary from far away, and it is beautiful.

[00:24:19] But I didn't realize that they had a space where you can look out, because you have a gorgeous view of Philadelphia from Camden, really pretty much anywhere in Camden. If you're up high enough, you can really see Philly and it's beautiful. And I'm sure the hospital does have a beautiful view from even some of the rooms as well.

[00:24:37] Sean: Yeah, that's where I got the title for the book and poem. That's the same title, Halo Nests. I imagined that there was a nest, a hawk's nest in the halo of the statue on top of the hospital building because there was always this hawk flying to and from the top of the statue. So I was like, there's got to be a hawk's nest in the halo.

[00:25:01] So that's where I came up with that. And 

[00:25:04] Jill: actually at Harley's Cemetery, the cemetery we were talking about earlier, the last time I was there a couple years ago, there was a bald eagle nest in one of the trees, and my whole family went out there to try to see the bald eagle nest. So it's interesting that that's one of my Memories of that cemetery was looking for the bald eagle nest.

[00:25:23] And so I don't know again. It's one of those interesting things Does it mean anything? No, but also I just think it's interesting when things like that happen when I'm having conversations and the repeating numbers is the same kind of idea, but It's fun. Life is interesting that way. Life and death are interesting that 

[00:25:39] Sean: way.

[00:25:40] When you're grieving, your mind naturally tries to attribute symbolism and find symbolism everywhere, regardless of whether you believe in God or don't believe in God. You can't help but to try to find meaning in things that might not have meaning, but you have this emotion that it That's where poetry comes from, I feel like.

[00:26:03] Jill: And it's interesting too, because when you just said when you're grieving and my first thought was, well, I'm not grieving. And then I was like, actually, I think we're always grieving. I can't remember a time in my life when I wasn't grieving, even though I didn't know that that's what it was. Some of the times when I've almost like, searched out this symbolism, right?

[00:26:25] Where like, I'll notice a repeating number, and then I'll be like, what does it mean? Why do I keep seeing the number? Or the last couple of days, I keep finding quarters places, just like random places. I went out onto my chair out on my front lawn, and there was a quarter sitting there. And I was like, Oh, that's weird.

[00:26:40] And then like a little bit later, I was walking and I looked down and there was a quarter. So then part of my brain was like, why is there quarters? What does it mean? Probably nothing. But it's just interesting. And I think of some of those times when I've really Looked for the symbolism, and I was grieving things.

[00:26:56] It maybe wasn't the death of a loved one, but it was the grief for, I don't know, just so many things lost in life, so many endings in life, so many painful situations that take something from us. When we go through something that causes us pain, it takes part of us with it. I think that actually is a really, Interesting way of looking at it that when we're processing, when we're grieving, when we're kind of going through whatever it is internally, there is part of us that looks for something that says there's meaning behind this.

[00:27:31] There's a reason behind this, whatever that reason is. 

[00:27:34] Sean: Yeah, definitely. There's collective grief. There's when you're an empathetic person or a person who's really tuned into current events, especially whether it's the war in Gaza or the war in Ukraine, or any endemic problem that is based upon injustice, poverty, homelessness.

[00:27:56] Simply walking down the street, seeing someone else suffering. I think there is a continual process of grief that we all are experiencing. And then we just repress it or try to find other ways to use it as a conduit or get rid of it or whatever. It's definitely more of a universal, not specific experience.

[00:28:18] A lot of people have a very, very narrow view or, you know, grief is, but it's something that is substantially more ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's happening all the time, but it's heightened of course, when it's your loved one who is dying or died and you experience grief while your loved one is dying before they die too.

[00:28:41] So it's not just someone dies and then you go through the first stage of grief and then the second, third, fourth, fifth, that's not how it works. You experience. all different stages at different times, not chronologically. 

[00:28:54] Jill: One of the most famous stages of grief actually wasn't even meant to be about grief.

[00:28:59] It was designed for people, not even designed. I think somebody just noticed a pattern that when somebody was diagnosed with a terminal illness, we went through these stages of the anger and whatever else tool eventually we got to acceptance. And then somebody. saw that and was like, Oh, it's similar to grief.

[00:29:18] And then it got pulled over into the grief world. But we do as humans, we want things to go in these nice, neat, orderly, if I do this, this will happen. And if I do this, then I'll get this result. And that's not how grief works. Honestly, it's not how anything in life works. But especially with grief, you'll be okay one day and be like accepting and this is all right.

[00:29:38] And then there's the anger the next day. And then there's the sadness and then you get back and forth and all over the place. And it's just part of our experience. And then yes, adding to it old grief that we didn't process for whatever reason, adding to it the grief for the world around us. And you're right about being empathetic.

[00:29:56] That's one of the things that I've noticed on Patco recently is, you know, I'm having a harder time because now when I go onto Patco, there is more people that are obviously unhoused and are on it because it's warm. We're coming out of winter. It's warm. There's some mental illness. that was being exhibited, and I just try very hard not to turn away from the things that make me uncomfortable, to witness it.

[00:30:26] For some people, I'm actually very vigilant in that I'm like, I hope nobody messes with it, and if Somebody messes with them while I'm on the train, I'm gonna have to stand up and get involved because it's not as simple as people want to make it, right? Like, people just want to be like, just get off the train, then I don't have to see it and the problem goes away.

[00:30:45] Like no, that's not how it works, people. So I'm kinda, I think, processing. And then the grief that so many people are suffering in the world right now. Always is just overwhelming to those of us that allow ourselves to feel it and witness and experience it. 

[00:31:04] Sean: Yeah, you have to strike a balance, right? Because you can't stop.

[00:31:07] You can't completely have your life come to an end, but also People are so desensitized to it here in Philadelphia or like on the Broad Street line or somewhere else. I've seen a dead body in public. People walk by someone who has died on the sidewalk of an overdose or whatever it may be. We've become desensitized to it.

[00:31:28] And it's difficult. It's really difficult to, you can't take that all on yourself. We have to collectively. Like what you were saying earlier about, we tend to, we want things to be orderly and have it be a logical step by step conclusion, almost like an equation, especially in the 21st century with artificial intelligence and everything becoming so there's so much chaos in the world, but we're trying to make everything.

[00:31:54] Orderly and, and not human, I feel like less and less humanity, especially when it comes to artificial intelligence and virtual reality and all of these things that are futuristic sci fi things in the past, they're now becoming real. We're becoming not less human, but I feel like we're in danger of. Being less human the effects of those things.

[00:32:19] Jill: We don't like emotions we don't like to feel things because feeling things makes us really uncomfortable and so We are trying in some ways you work in food service, right? You work as a bartender You know how many of us self medicate with alcohol with drugs so we don't have to feel the pain So we don't have to feel the discomfort and I get it on one hand But also, it's getting easier for us to not feel things in a lot of ways, and I don't believe that that's healthy.

[00:32:51] I think we need to feel all the stuff, the good and the bad, and that's part of being a human, right? Is having all of those experiences. We need to feel it all. 

[00:33:00] Sean: Definitely, and I was, during My mother's illness or afterwards, I forget exactly when, but I, I was on antidepressants for a few years and it helps a lot, but also, and it's really important to take care of your mental health.

[00:33:17] But I feel like there was a part of me that started grieving again when I went off my antidepressants because you feel things differently. It's not like you don't have any feelings or emotions when you're on antidepressants. But it's definitely a different experience. So you had to go through things kind of raw with life.

[00:33:36] And like you said, alcohol, there was times where I was really abusing alcohol, especially being in the restaurant industry and it's so easily accessible. I, I have in one of my poems is. The night before my mom's funeral, somebody brought a case of beer. I drank an entire case. I drank, I drank a whole 24 cans of PBR in one night, but then you have to obviously go through your grief sober.

[00:33:59] You need to have those sober periods. You also, I would argue, need to have several drinks and relax too. You can't be so wound up. all the time. It's good. I'm a big proponent of alcohol. I love alcohol, but obviously you can abuse it. But it did help a night or two, for sure. 

[00:34:17] Jill: Yeah, it's a balance, right?

[00:34:19] There's, there's nothing wrong with alcohol if you can use it in a way that it doesn't take over your life and you don't feel like you're out of control. But yeah, it's good. Unfortunately, for some people, that is the path that it goes down. It eventually takes over their life and they're out of control.

[00:34:34] Hopefully, we can find the balance, but it's not always easy in life, because there's always going to be pain, there's always going to be some suffering, and we can't just self medicate it away constantly. Even with the antidepressants, when I was on them, I remember the first time I had to go on them.

[00:34:51] Being really hesitant because part of me was like, I don't know, you know, I'm not sure what it's going to do, how I'm going to feel. And the way that the doctor explained it to me was if I was a dentist and I was going to work on your tooth, I would numb it first. And he was like, and that's kind of what we're going to do.

[00:35:07] We're just going to give you a little something. So it numbs that really intense pain. And then we can work with. What it is that's going on, and I was like, oh, okay, now that makes sense to me, and that is kind of what it did. It didn't numb everything completely, but it definitely made it easier for me to talk through what was causing me this pain and suffering versus, Just shoving it down and shoving it down and pretending that it wasn't actually there.

[00:35:33] Sean: Definitely. I've dealt with depression and anxiety my whole life. I wasn't prescribed it just because of my mom's death. I've been on it before and I've gone through periods in my life where I've been on it for a few years and then off of it. I've been off of it for a few years, but you're right. Exactly.

[00:35:48] It numbs, it numbs things kind of like in a more subtle way than alcohol does. Alcohol numbs things. Very obviously, when people are drunk, they're numbed to things, which is ironic because there's the cliche of the maudlin like. sad, sappy drunks who are like crying and stuff. But luckily, I only in my bartending life, I've only experienced having to do that a few times and be someone's therapist behind the bar, which is ridiculous.

[00:36:17] But usually people are pretty normal. 

[00:36:19] Jill: You know, it is what it is when it comes to people and their their alcohol and Yes, I've seen some interesting things working in restaurants and bars, but for the most part, it's people just using it enough to relax and take the edge off a little bit and move on with whatever is going on in their life.

[00:36:38] Sean: Oh, yeah, that could be a whole nother hour long podcast that you can do about that for sure. 

[00:36:43] Jill: For real, I know, I know. And we actually are almost out of time, which time flies by. So tell us a little bit more about a website or how to get your book when it's officially out, how to get any of your other books, whatever you want to share with us.

[00:36:59] Sean: Sure. Thanks. I I will be having a few different book readings in May, June, and July. The first one would be at Fergie's Pub, Moonstone Arts Center Poetry Reading on the second floor of the pub. I believe it's the first Wednesday in June. So I'll have copies of the book there. And then also in July at the Pen and Pencil Club in Philadelphia.

[00:37:24] I've 

[00:37:24] Jill: been there. 

[00:37:25] Sean: Yeah, but so it's gonna be at 8pm not 3am. It's an after hours spot, but the poetry reading is gonna be eight o'clock, July 14. I think I'm doing a couple other readings at bookstores. I don't have the exact dates down yet. But you could also buy it on Amazon starting May 8. Just search for Halo nests by Sean Lynch and you can buy it on Amazon.

[00:37:46] So 

[00:37:47] Jill: perfect Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes, too So people can easily find it sending them have to search they could just click the link I don't make it as easy as possible. Thank you so much Sean. This was a lovely conversation I really did enjoy your book. And so I recommend it to people if you just want to Grab a copy and read it.

[00:38:05] It was really lovely. I enjoyed it. 

[00:38:08] Sean: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 

[00:38:10] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of seeing death clearly. There will be no new episode next week, July 14th because of my vacation, but I will be at Sean's book reading that night at the pen and pencil club in Philadelphia.

[00:38:25] So stop by and see us. The next episode will be with Dr. Marie Gasper Holvat, a human design specialist, intuitive EFT practitioner, and Reiki master teacher. Dr. Marie's sensitivity to energy is heightened through her Reiki training, leading to encounters with disembodied souls. Dr. Marie's compassionate approach aids souls in transitioning to the light.

[00:38:50] transforming her once terrifying view of death into a peaceful continuation of life. Join us as we dig into her transformative experiences and unique insights on life, death, and the connections between them. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

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[00:39:46] Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.