Insights from Lisa Pahl the Creator of The Death Deck

Lisa Pahl is a licensed clinical social worker in LA, she has extensive experience in community mental health, domestic violence, and supporting survivors of torture. 

Early in her career, she worked at the Florida Center for Survivors of Torture, and after moving to LA, she worked in community mental health for several years. She then switched to working in hospice care, where she found her true calling.

In 2018, she co-created The Death Deck with her business partner, Lori. The idea stemmed from Lori's experience with her husband Joe's terminal illness, where Lori felt unprepared for making critical decisions. The Death Deck was designed to help people have meaningful conversations about death and end-of-life preferences before a crisis occurs. The deck includes 112 cards, many of which are multiple-choice to make the conversation easier and even inject humor to lighten the mood.

She shares her experiences hosting events like Death Over Drafts, where people gather in breweries to discuss death in a relaxed setting. These events foster a sense of community and help normalize conversations about death and dying. She highlights the importance of having these conversations to prepare for the inevitable and reduce the emotional burden on families.

For those interested in learning more, The Death Deck is available on their website and she welcomes connections and questions from anyone looking to engage further in these vital conversations.

https://thedeathdeck.com/

https://www.facebook.com/thedeathdeck/

https://www.instagram.com/thedeathdeck/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-pahl-lcsw-89669070/

https://www.deathoverdrafts.com/

I’m thrilled to share my new line of death-positive apparel and items; a great way to bring meaningful conversation into style and support a small, death-positive business.

These shirts are designed for those of us who believe in open, honest conversations about death, dying, and grief. 

And if you’re a regular listener, I know you’re already death-positive and not afraid to spark these conversations. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa: Even when we think we don't want to talk about death and dying, we all have thoughts, feelings, experiences, 

[00:00:06] Jill: stories to share on the topic. Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself.

[00:00:21] My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode, I talk with Lisa Paul, a licensed clinical hospice social worker and creator of one of my favorite tools to use in my work, the Death Deck.

[00:00:43] We talk about what inspired the creation of the Death Deck, a card game designed to facilitate meaningful conversations about death and end-of-life preferences. She shares insights from her unique community events, things like death overdrafts, which normalized discussions about death in relaxed settings.

[00:01:02] Join us as we explore her impactful career, the importance of preparing for the inevitable, and how humor and openness can transform our approach to end-of-life conversations. Thank you for joining us. Welcome, Lisa, to the podcast. Thank you for coming on. I know you know how much I love the Death Deck, and I'm sure anybody who follows me on social media also knows how much I love the Death Deck because I post about it all the time.

[00:01:27] So I'm excited to talk to you. I know a little bit about your story and how it happened, but I want to hear it from you how the whole thing happened. But start us off anyway with just like a little background. Where are you from originally? Anything like that you want to share? Transcribed 

[00:01:41] Lisa: Well, I'm excited to be here today, Jill.

[00:01:43] I know we've been following each other on social media for quite a long time. So it's wonderful to finally be in conversation together. I grew up on a farm in Northern Michigan and came out to Los Angeles about 22 years ago, I believe. And I'm a licensed clinical social worker here in the LA area. And I have worked within community mental health, domestic violence, and rape crisis.

[00:02:10] With survivors of torture. That was my very early career, and then most of my career has been in the end of life space, both in the ER and within hospice. 

[00:02:20] Jill: Wow. That must be really intense work. I've never heard of anybody specializing in things like working with people that survive torture. That's pretty intense.

[00:02:29] Lisa: Yeah, that was one of my first jobs, actually, after I got my master's degree. I spent a couple years in Florida before L. A., and there was a, an agency there called Florida Center for Survivors of Torture, and my role was the case manager, and I helped. People who were fleeing their countries get connected with asylum attorneys, as well as help them understand the programs that we have in place to help people, Medicaid, helping with all of those applications, and also helping people understand what is Walmart, where do you get gas for your car, some of these small small and big things.

[00:03:06] It was very, very formative though, because like I said, I grew up on a farm in Northern Michigan in a very white, small town feel. And to then be working with people from Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sudan, we had a big group of the young men, the Lost Boys of Sudan, had been brought to that area of Florida as well.

[00:03:30] It was really quite an opportunity as a 23 year old with very little life experience. I would love to go back and relive one of those days again, as I am now at 47, because the richness of what each of these families taught me and it was, it was quite a moving experience to be able to support people in that way.

[00:03:54] I know today that I probably could have supported differently than my 22 year old self. 

[00:03:59] Jill: There's definitely times when I look back to myself in my 20s, and we all are doing the best we can. There are things that I'm like, Oh, man, if I could just go back and do that again, because I know so much more. But that's how we learn, right?

[00:04:12] We do things, we learn maybe how we don't want to do it moving forward. And that's how we grow and get better. That's awesome that you did that work. That's really beautiful work and really needed work. I'm sure, unfortunately in the world. And what brought you then to California and end of life work? 

[00:04:29] Lisa: Well, California, I had always wanted to move to California.

[00:04:34] Actually. I kind of had that pit stop in Florida where my brother was and then came out to California. As many people who flee Michigan, part of it was the weather, but I was also looking for more opportunities, more work opportunities, expanding my worldview, being in communities that weren't, where everyone didn't look like me, and so I came to L.

[00:04:56] A. and I started working in community mental health, which was also really incredible and a wonderful learning experience. But I ended up quitting that after about six or seven years after the brother and sister were murdered that I had worked with. And so I realized at that time that I didn't feel effective is what it was.

[00:05:17] And there's a lot of. Sadness in social work jobs. There's very few social work jobs that are celebrating happy times. This felt like I was trying to support someone, support these kids who were living in really challenging situations. And I just didn't feel like I was as helpful as I wanted to be. So I decided to try something else.

[00:05:40] And I got a job in hospice and about a week later. I told my husband, or I think we were dating at the time, this is it. This is where I belong. This is what I want to be doing. It just felt like I could really support people. And I loved that I wasn't being asked to fix the situation, which I think there's a lot in social work that is about helping people.

[00:06:04] You know, my kids acting out, fix them, that kind of desperation and this was more like the families knew I wasn't going to be able to fix the fact that their family member was dying, but I could support them and educate and hold space for them along the way. It's 

[00:06:21] Jill: true though, I don't have any type of social work training, but the job that I came out of.

[00:06:26] I realized that I was basically a social worker helping people get job skills that have gone through a lot of trauma. I was teaching them to bake, but also there's a lot of the trauma that's coming up. And I hadn't really thought about it that way that in some ways. There is a lot of, I'm there to fix problems, I'm there to help with these certain things, where with End of Life, I'm just really there to support and get people the things that they need, but without fixing some kind of a problem.

[00:06:57] It's not a problem, right? Death isn't a problem. Death is death. We're all going to experience it. But what we can do is make it a little easier for people. What type of things does a social worker do for hospice? 

[00:07:09] Lisa: We provide resources as one task that we do. Helping people make final arrangements, their disposition options, going over those and the list of resources in the area to help them with that.

[00:07:22] We help with caregiving, helping people understand what their options are for placement and care at home. And then the bulk of what we do is emotional support and anticipatory grief support. That's one of the things I love the most about working in hospice is that the Medicare benefit allows for social workers and chaplains to be providing that emotional and spiritual support alongside the nurses and physicians who are also providing some of that and also medical care.

[00:07:49] And so a lot of what I do is with the families. Some is with the patient, but depending on how sick the patient is, they may not be up for as many conversations as the family is. And so I would say probably 70 percent of my role is supporting the family members and about 30 percent the patients, just based on a lot of them not being able to really engage in full conversations by the time that they're on hospice.

[00:08:16] Jill: And the families definitely need a lot of support in a space that can just feel so lonely and isolating compared to your friends, what else is going on around you. And I love hospice. I used hospice with my grandmother when she was dying. And this was gosh, almost 13 years ago, but it's definitely, you know, Part of what got me into this work, and I don't even think we had a social worker that ever came out.

[00:08:45] I mainly just talked to the nurses and had them help me understand what was going on. So that's probably my only complaint and or criticism about my experience with it is that there's probably things I could have used, but I didn't know because there wasn't anybody saying. We have a social worker, we have a chaplain, we have these other people that can come out and help you.

[00:09:06] I just, I don't know, I had the nurses come out and I just talked their ear off, asked them so many questions, and thank God they were there. It's such important work to support a whole family because, you're right, by the time that somebody, you know, Typically gets on to hospice. They should get on earlier most of the time, but by the time that they typically do and a lot of cases, they're not verbal.

[00:09:28] You're not really able to help them as much, but the families need a lot of support because most of us haven't. Navigated death or dying, at least not that much, and probably in a lot of cases, it was maybe not the greatest experience, and so we go into it either upset already, expecting it to be this terrible traumatic thing, and it doesn't have to be a terrible traumatic thing, if we have the right support, and if we understand what's going on.

[00:09:57] It's beautiful work. 

[00:09:58] Lisa: Well, two things I want to say to that. One, I'm really sorry that that was your experience because Medicare guidelines say that the social worker and chaplain are supposed to be doing an assessment within five days after a person comes on to hospice. So there should have been someone reaching out.

[00:10:16] Sometimes we reach out to one family member and so other family members may not be part of that initial conversation. So that's one aspect. But, The thing that I struggle with sometimes is just that there is such variation in how hospices are providing care. I happen to work for a hospice that I greatly respect, and my caseload is manageable, and my colleagues and I support each other and help each other, and so we provide excellent care.

[00:10:44] But I am well aware that not all hospices are And some are not providing the same kind of emotional support and care that they should be. I guess I just want to take this moment to let people know that you can certainly ask for emotional support from Chaplain and Social Work if your family member is on hospice.

[00:11:03] You also don't have to stay home. Stick with the hospice that you came on. If you're not satisfied with services, you can change hospices. It doesn't matter if your doctor wants you to use this hospice or not. You have the right to change hospices too. So I'd like to make sure everyone knows that you don't have to stick with a hospice if you're not satisfied.

[00:11:22] Jill: Yeah, because I didn't. Know that the hospital center home, we were like, Okay, sure, this sounds great, because I didn't think there was really any other options. And again, overall, I have no complaints with the hospice that we used. But this is one of those times that I'm like, there's so much I would do different now, if it was me doing that experience now, which I kind of got to re experience some of it recently with my aunt with the knowledge that I have now.

[00:11:49] And knowing that it makes such a difference, having this basic understanding of what was going on and the questions to ask, and it really did make a difference. And that's the thing too, with people trying to do all of this on their own. That's why there is Death Duelists now. That's part of what we're here to do.

[00:12:09] I could see how even I put myself back where I was with my grandmother. I was so Emotionally overwhelmed that even if somebody would have said to me you could change hospices the thought of even looking for another hospice I wouldn't have even considered it. I would have been like, look, unless they're like, absolutely terrible.

[00:12:26] I can't right now. I've got as much on my plate as I could handle, but that is why there is support. That's why there's death doulas out there. We can help you figure these things out. If you don't like your hospice, I can help or another death school. It can help you find one that fits the needs or even better.

[00:12:43] Ideally, you would call us earlier. I try to tell people when they say, well, when should we call a death doula? And like, honestly, if you get a terminal diagnosis, if anybody in your family does, even if you're going to do treatment, call a death doula, start getting things in line, start having these conversations so that when the time comes and you need to start thinking about a hospice, you don't have to think about it.

[00:13:06] Then you'd already thought about it. You'd already looked into different ones. You've already gotten clear on what's important. Cause there are some, at least in my area, especially, There's some that are more religious and there's some that are more just like, they don't really bring religion into it too much, even though they have a chaplain.

[00:13:21] Well, depending on what your beliefs are, you might want one or the other based off of even just those two things. So definitely get the support. There's people out there that can help you navigate these things. And really that brings us perfectly into the death deck because one of the big things is we need to have these conversations with our loved ones and we need to have them.

[00:13:42] While we're healthy, while we're not in crisis, while we're not upset and overly emotional, and it doesn't have to be like, okay, we're going to sit down, we're going to talk about my death. Like it doesn't have to be this like big, heavy conversation. There's tools like the death deck. There's different ways that you can just have people over, have a couple of drinks, have some snacks.

[00:14:04] Maybe it's your mom and your dad, whoever it is, your siblings, your children, whoever it is that you want to have the conversation with. And that's why the death deck is awesome because it makes it easy to just like pick a card. And the last time I used it, we had this like grand plan that it was going to be like this two hour event and we were going to get through all these cards.

[00:14:22] And I think we got through three because we just started talking so much that one thing led to another thing led to another thing. And next thing I know, I was like, well, we did three cards. Good job, everybody. But it doesn't matter, right? It doesn't matter how many cards you get through. It's really just more about starting.

[00:14:39] the conversation in a way that makes it easier to start the conversation. Can you tell us, first off, how did you come up with the death deck? What the story is behind it? And then anything you want to share about it? Because I do love it. 

[00:14:51] Lisa: Well, I was chuckling along. I know the listeners can't see me laughing, but that was our experience.

[00:14:58] When we first created the death deck, we tested it out with our friend groups. And that first night we were all excited and we had pulled 20 cards. We thought in our two hours, we were going to get through 20 cards and we made it through five in the two hours. And it really highlighted a, that. We achieved what we wanted.

[00:15:21] We did start these conversations with our reluctant friends, friends that were not death people who we dragged to the table, who didn't think they had a lot to say on these topics, but it turns out like everyone else they do, because even when we think we don't want to talk about death and dying, we all have thoughts, feelings, experiences, stories to share on the topic.

[00:15:43] And often what I find is just what you found that. Once the conversation gets going, it goes in these beautiful tangents and storytelling, and that's the whole point. So, the Death Deck was created in 2018 by myself and my business partner, Lori. I was the hospice social worker for Lori's husband, Joe. He was on hospice very early in my hospice career, and he was in his early 40s.

[00:16:09] Lori and Joe had two young kids. I supported Then through his time on hospice, which was very short, and then in grief. A few years after we ended our bereavement relationship, Lori reached out and we had coffee and we developed a friendship. And then years after that, we started talking about Lori's experience while Joe was dying and how ill prepared she felt for making a lot of decisions.

[00:16:36] When Joe came on to hospice, he was already starting to transition. So he was really not able to communicate anymore. And so, that took Lori by surprise, and she struggled with some of the decisions that she needed to make, given that his family was there, his parents, and they had some different views than her on what Joe would want.

[00:16:59] And so, Lori did a beautiful job navigating it. But it was certainly very challenging. And so we started brainstorming, I'd say five years after his death. And we started talking about what could we do to try to help people be more prepared and have these conversations before terminal illness, before a medical crisis, because What Lori found, which is very common, once Joe had this diagnosis, he wanted to fight.

[00:17:27] He used all of the fighting cancer language. He was going to beat it. He wanted to fight. He was going to be a statistic of one to beat pancreatic cancer. That was his motto. And so for her to be able to talk about what happens if, became, really challenging. And she didn't want to, right? It's so emotionally challenging at that time.

[00:17:48] And so we created a game to try to help people before that time so that we can increase our comfort with these conversations. We can practice talking about death and dying and our end of life wishes because like everything else, practice makes it a little easier. And also, We can start these conversations with family, and then we have a place to return to, so that when something happens, because all of us are going to have something, and when that time comes, then we can continue, continue the conversation rather than starting it.

[00:18:20] As you mentioned, Jill, the emotions are so high. When your grandma came on to hospice, the idea of switching hospices and navigating that was As you said, so overwhelming, right? And so really our intention with the death deck is to help people so that when those times come, they feel a little bit, a little bit more prepared.

[00:18:39] And lastly, we have a lot of prompts in there that we hope encourage people to take some action in terms of completing an advanced directive, getting your affairs in order, your passwords, all of these important things that we know greatly impact. Both how a person dies as well as what they have to deal with after you're gone.

[00:19:02] Jill: That's the thing that I think people sometimes don't think about where they think they have more time. But like you just mentioned, he was in his forties. So your business partner's husband, we all think that's too young. My husband's in his early forties. And when I hear those stories, I'm like, Oh man, that would be me.

[00:19:20] There's nothing I could do to make sure we do the best we can. But I can't completely prevent it. But if something were to happen to him, because we've had the conversations, I can focus on my children, I can focus on getting things done. And so we tend to think about our end of life as our end of life.

[00:19:40] But really, it impacts the people that are left behind more than it's really going to impact you even leading up to it. So having the things in place is just going to make it easier. For the people that you love and things like the passwords. There's like little things around the house now that before I became a death roller before I started thinking about this stuff as much as I do, I wouldn't have really thought too much into it.

[00:20:04] And now it'll just be like, Oh, man, like if something were to happen to Steven, I wouldn't know. This one thing at all, like, I know nothing. I don't know the passwords. I don't know where to find anything. And we're pretty well put together. But there's still those things that I'm finding along the way. And unfortunately, so many people are left with nothing when somebody dies, especially if they're too young to die in our minds, especially if it's a sudden death.

[00:20:31] And then all of a sudden, you're realizing that you can't even pay your electric bill because you don't know anything about it. because that's something somebody else takes care of. And so it's definitely important. And again, it's not like you don't sit down and do this all at once. This isn't like a Sunday project, you know, a thing that you're going to do over time and you'll update things.

[00:20:51] What I want now at 45, which I had to think for a second, I am 45. What I would want now at 45 is different than what I'm going to want at 55 or 65. So I'll go back, I'll revisit all my stuff, but as long as we have been doing it over time, it won't be as overwhelming. It won't be such a huge It's more like just building on it.

[00:21:15] And like you said, the practice makes things easier. And so every time I have the conversation with my husband, every time I have the conversation, even now with my children, it gets easier each time because it just does. So I don't know. It's 

[00:21:28] Lisa: just how it works. It's easier for them to that first conversation.

[00:21:31] And so I need to talk about these topics. It can feel. Anxiety producing it can feel uncomfortable for people, but usually you rip that band aid off and then you can Have more ease in your conversations after that And I think we created the death deck to try to help people plan and be more prepared But we also have found that these conversations really help us get closer together When you're having real conversations, and I'm picturing your friend group that you got people together and you made it through three cards, the richness of those conversations, I would expect that you all left feeling really connected to one another because we're talking about real things.

[00:22:15] We're talking about things that matter to us, that are important to us, and that we don't always have an opportunity to to talk about. And so I have found that to be incredibly meaningful as I host death over draft events or other death deck game nights with people, people that I don't even know. I will leave feeling this sense of community and connection that is just so fortifying and rich.

[00:22:38] I love that additional secondary gain that we get from these conversations. 

[00:22:43] Jill: Yeah, same because I'm somebody that does not like chit chat. I don't like gossip. I don't like the things that a lot of times when people get together is what the conversation is. And so now even just the fact that I say I'm a death doula right now, the conversations I have at parties are very different because either somebody will run away from me when I say what I do.

[00:23:05] It's kind of like that. Oh, that's interesting. And then they figure out a reason to disappear. Or they go right away. Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. I had this experience happen. What about this? And next thing you know, I'm having really interesting conversations at parties that I didn't used to have. And so it really does give you this connection.

[00:23:26] I think that's part of why people do shy away from it, because in some ways, it's. We have to be really vulnerable to talk about these things with other people. There will be some people that when they're talking about it, they get a little choked up. Maybe they cry a little bit. And I love that. That's part of what I'm there for.

[00:23:42] But it does require people to be a little bit more vulnerable than the typical, Oh, so how's your kid doing in soccer today? Like that kind of stuff. But. Yeah, it definitely leads to more connection and deeper connections with people. And to me, it's also one of those things where I feel like I learn a lot about a person and their culture and their religion and the things that are really interesting to me when we talk about death, because so many things really overlap.

[00:24:13] in that space that you're not going to see in everyday life. And so I really love to learn about people and why they believe what they believe, even if it's not what I believe. And so I, I love the conversations. 

[00:24:26] Lisa: We decided that one way that we were going to try to help people have these conversations was to.

[00:24:31] to insert some humor into the cards. There's 112 cards in our deck and 80 of them are multiple choice. And part of the reason for the multiple choice is to make it easier, right? So that we can align ourselves with an answer. It kind of makes you feel a little less on the spot. You can also partner up and guess each other's answers, which is really fun because it adds another gamifying element that I think.

[00:24:56] takes more pressure off because now you're kind of focused on guessing each other's answers. And I think that that helps reduce some of the vulnerability because there's a little bit of a game aspect of that. And then we also added the multiple choice element so that we could put some humor in there so that we could try to help lighten up the topic a little bit.

[00:25:15] It was interesting when we first launched, we got a lot of pushback about the name, the death deck, that we should call it something softer. We were Very firm, no, that this is what it is. We really are trying to have people talk about death and not use a euphemism for death. But then last year we launched our end of life deck, which is a euphemism, right?

[00:25:36] Or rather it's, it's more about the stage, right? That final stage of life. And the reason that we created the second deck was to help people have more specific conversations about end of life preferences in a more respectful and less Tongue in cheek manner. So this is the deck that I use with my hospice patients that our palliative care team uses with their patients as well.

[00:26:01] And this is really the more sensitive version of our death deck. So now we have two options. You can go bold and, and laughter, which is what I use for all of my community engagement and trying to And then the EOL deck is for those more sensitive times with people who have serious illness or advanced age where death is closer.

[00:26:23] And most of the time we want to be a little bit more respectful in our tone during those times. 

[00:26:29] Jill: That is a good point too, because I don't have your second deck. I did see online that you had put out a new one, but. I know when I have a new client, I'll do an end of life care plan with them, and it has a bunch of questions.

[00:26:43] And the plan takes me a long time to get through with somebody. First, I was like, okay, it's probably going to be an hour or two. And now it's like stretching into three to four hours, not all at once, because that's a lot. But it's mainly because It is something that when you're talking to someone that it's like, this is real now, right?

[00:27:04] If we're having this conversation, it's because we need to know this information. And I love to kind of let people go off and think about things and talk it through and kind of have, again, more of like a conversation, not so much as, let me just ask this question. you these questions and you have to give me an answer, but it's part of the work that I love.

[00:27:23] I love to do this with people to have these conversations, help them get clear, help them understand things. Because again, there's a lot of things I didn't understand. And it's hard when, especially when you're talking medical stuff, unless you've gone to medical school, a lot of this stuff is very, it's not.

[00:27:39] confusing on purpose. It's not like the doctors are trying to confuse us on purpose, but they're basically speaking a different language that we don't understand. And so I've spent some time really trying to learn about some of it just to help people understand it a little bit better. And so when I am asking questions, I'm able to explain a little bit more what some of these things are, because I think most of us see it on TV.

[00:28:03] And we think that It's going to look this way, but the reality is it doesn't look like it does on television. 

[00:28:09] Lisa: Yeah. Barbara Carnes has a great t shirt that I own that says people don't die like they do in the movies. And I wear that shirt. I like to wear it at the airport because that is a day where a lot of people see you or at my son's volleyball games.

[00:28:25] And I always get so many, so many people coming up to me. Either asking, what are you talking about? What are you doing with that shirt? Kind of a little angry sometimes. And then, but I would say most people immediately just want to share a story about how that's exactly how they felt when their mom died, it was nothing like.

[00:28:46] What was portrayed on TV and they felt very unprepared by what death really looks like. So that's just a little side. I think there's so many great ways that we can promote conversations out in community. I've been fortunate enough to be hosting death over drafts, which is similar to The model is similar to death cafes, except for that we're taking place most of the time in a brewery.

[00:29:08] And also we're in a traditional death cafe, you're not supposed to bring your own agenda or talk about the services that you offer. It's supposed to be just organic coming from the people who attend and whatever they want to talk about. And so with Death over giraffes, we usually use the death deck or our Ewald deck and have people gather in groups and have these conversations.

[00:29:32] And we usually bring these giant skeletons and we have death over giraffes and we're in the middle of a brewery. And so people come up all the time asking, what are you doing? And of course they have stories to share and we usually can rope them into playing with us for a while. And, you know, all of these things just, for me, help.

[00:29:50] Like it just, it feeds me, it feeds my desire to help further this conversation and normalize these conversations on death and dying because both in the ER and in hospice, people are so unprepared and some people just haven't even thought about the topic or they just push it away because they're so fearful or so anxious.

[00:30:11] Then they're in these situations where they have to make decisions for other people and it's paralyzing and it's so overwhelming. That's why I do what I do. All this community engagement, it's all volunteer time on my own that I'm trying to help create these conversations in the community so that people will maybe be just a little bit better prepared.

[00:30:32] Jill: Yeah, and that's the goal, right? It's baby steps, just a little bit better prepared. You probably don't remember this, but the first time I ever, quote unquote, met you was right at the beginning of the pandemic lockdown. I had just started working with Jill Schock and death of a drafts was supposed to be that Friday in person.

[00:30:51] And all of a sudden they were like, we're going to do it on zoom. So I am like this total newbie have no idea what I'm getting myself into. I get into this zoom with all these people that are like professionals and end of life. And I'm like, Hey, here I am over in New Jersey, just getting started. But that was Mr.

[00:31:09] Exactly four years ago, which is crazy how time flies. But that was like my first real introduction to this really like Death positive. And I know that's kind of a term now, right? The death positive movement, but it was really my first introduction to a group of people that were like, yes, we're going to talk about death.

[00:31:27] And like, this is going to be amazing. And we're going to have some drinks and we're just going to sit around on zoom at the beginning of what we felt was going to be maybe a couple of days, a couple of weeks. Much longer than that, but I do I love death over drafts and I hosted two of them in Philadelphia And it's one of the things that there's only one of me and there's a lot to do So maybe I'll get together with somebody again and host another one But they really are amazing events and I love the structure and I do like that because I've done death cafes as well But I do like death over drafts.

[00:32:00] They are a lot of fun. And I know There's groups of people all around the country, right, that are now hosting them. So no matter where you live in the United States, look into Death Over Drafts. There's a chance that somebody's hosting one, at least somewhere near where you are. But I know there's definitely people all over that are doing them.

[00:32:18] Lisa: Yeah, yeah, you can go to deathoverdrafts. com. Stephanie Elkins is running that and she keeps updated. The current death overdrafts that are going on across the country. And then we've been hosting, we started this year, we started returning to doing a quarterly death overdrafts on zoom so that we can continue to reach people who maybe don't have one in their area or aren't able to get out and, or get away because they're caregiving all of those things.

[00:32:47] COVID certainly changed the world. And I think one of the ways that it changed it. in a positive way was the use of Zoom, right? And being able to connect now and being able to help reach people in rural areas or people who are caregiving and people who, because of health and limitations, can't get out of their house.

[00:33:08] So yeah, we're, we're doing that too. And you can, again, find out about those on BethoverDrafts. com. 

[00:33:13] Jill: Definitely check it out because they are fun. I love the conversations that people have, so it's always nice. And I definitely went through the Zoom burnout for a little while, where I was like, can't do another Zoom.

[00:33:25] Other than the ones I have to, I can't do anymore. But maybe I'll hop back on to another Deaf Overdrafts one, because I do miss it. I started going every week. It became something I really look forward to. And thankfully, now we can get back out in person in a lot of places. But there are still things that I miss that I used to do over Zoom.

[00:33:44] So I enjoyed it. Awesome. We're coming up on time. Is there any last thoughts about anything you want to share? And of course, share about your website, your Instagram, whatever you want, but any last thoughts you have about death, dying, grief, the death deck, whatever. 

[00:33:59] Lisa: I guess I'll say a couple things. Both in hospice and in emergency medicine, what I have found is that the advanced directive that you complete doesn't usually have All the things that your family member needs to make decisions on your behalf.

[00:34:16] And it's really the conversations that you have with them that help give them the confidence to make decisions for you. It's usually not that piece of paper, unless you do a very thorough one, like Jill is discussing with that kind of end of life plan, but in general, most of the time, we really. We hear our family members say things in our head about these topics, like, you know, never put a feeding tube in me or I'll haunt you, or my neighbor had this happen.

[00:34:48] I can't believe her son kept her alive afterwards. We have these memories from these conversations, and that's usually what helps people when they are in these really difficult, emotionally tough times. I'm going to be talking about how to make decisions on your behalf. It's what you talk about that they're going to use to help guide them.

[00:35:08] So have the conversation, do the paperwork, have the conversations over and over again. And then secondly, I know that sometimes people. I'm going to be dead so people can do whatever they want, and that might feel kind on your behalf, but it's actually not, it's more kind to be specific about what you want, because most of the time your family is going to have differing opinions on what you would want, if you don't, you want.

[00:35:38] Say it clearly, or they will fill in what you would want with what they would want, because that's natural human nature. So be specific, be clear. It will be such a gift for your family. 

[00:35:50] Jill: You're right about the paperwork, that it's the conversation, because nobody's going to stop to read the paperwork. If a doctor is saying, do they want to be intubated?

[00:35:58] You're not going to be like, let me get out their advanced directive and read that section to see exactly what they said. No, you need to have the conversation while also having it on paper for sure. 

[00:36:08] Lisa: Yes. Yes. So with all that in mind, you can find out more about the death deck at the death deck dot com.

[00:36:16] And then you can follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and you can follow me on LinkedIn. And death deck on LinkedIn. We love hearing from you. So if you have any questions, if you want to just connect, please reach out. You can reach out through our website at death deck. com. 

[00:36:34] Jill: And I'll put the links in the show notes so people can easily click on them and find you.

[00:36:40] But for real, get the death deck. It's not super expensive. It's the best thing that you could do. The next time you have. They'll get together with your family and be like, Hey, let's just talk about these things. And it will make it a lot easier to start the conversations and you'll learn a lot. Actually, you will learn more about the people that you love the most.

[00:37:00] So definitely grab one and use it because that's the thing too. Don't just buy it and have it sit on your shelf because that's not doing anything either. So you need to use it with your people. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Lisa for coming on. I really appreciate it. And I hope you enjoy the rest of your day Thanks for having me Jill.

[00:37:18] Thank you for listening to this episode of seeing death clearly in my next episode I talked with dr. Jeffrey Sankoff an Emergency physician originally from Canada that now lives and works in Denver, Colorado Dr. Sankoff shares insights from his career, discussing the emotional challenges doctors face, especially when dealing with patients deaths and the impact of the modern medical environment.

[00:37:45] He emphasizes the importance of direct and compassionate communication with families during tough times.

[00:38:07] Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC. He highlights the importance of an active lifestyle for better health and aging. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated.

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[00:38:54] Thank you. And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of seeing death clearly.