Fertility and Grief with Ashley Holmes

In this episode of Seeing Death Clearly, I spoke with my friend Ashley Holmes, a Holistic Fertility Coach dedicated to supporting women struggling with infertility by bringing mind, body, and spirit into balance. Her journey began from personal experience, facing her own fertility challenges, which inspired her to help others. Ashley noticed the widespread, unspoken grief and suffering that comes with infertility and miscarriage. To provide a supportive community, she created a Facebook group for individuals worldwide to share their experiences and find hope.

Ashley discussed the profound grief associated with infertility and miscarriage, highlighting the importance of acknowledging and honoring this grief rather than suppressing it. She emphasized that moving forward requires addressing these emotions instead of simply trying again without processing the pain.


Ashley's background is rooted in a small town in Manitoba, Canada. At 18, she moved to New Zealand, married a Kiwi, and eventually returned to Canada with her three children. Her life was marked by significant losses, including the death of her brother at 11 and her stepbrother later in life. These experiences shaped her compassionate nature and her understanding of grief's impact on the nervous system. Yoga played a transformative role in Ashley's healing journey. Initially drawn to the physical practice, she discovered the deeper benefits of yoga, particularly the yin and restorative practices that help release stored emotions and stress. 

Ashley works one-on-one with clients, offering personalized and customized programs that include yoga, yoga nidra meditations, chakra balancing, reiki, and Ayurveda. She believes in a holistic approach to fertility, emphasizing the need to address emotional healing before moving forward.


https://www.instagram.com/ashley_holmes3202/

https://www.facebook.com/ashley.holmes.3979

Facebook Group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/271957647919481/?ref=share_group_link

Website (with Links to Books):

https://holisticfertilitycoachinc.my.canva.site/

Free Gift  Healing Hearts Meditation 

subscribepage.io/C2MZms

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ashley: Understanding and learning of the life cycle and that we are nature and this is part and parcel of life and to accept life in all of its fullness. 

[00:00:11] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach. Here on my show I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself.

[00:00:24] My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. My guest today is Ashley Holmes, a holistic fertility coach who turned her personal fertility struggles into a mission to support others.

[00:00:45] Ashley and I talk about the grief associated with infertility and miscarriage, stressing the importance of acknowledging and honoring this grief rather than suppressing it. She emphasizes that true healing requires addressing these emotions rather than simply trying again without processing the pain.

[00:01:03] Ashley also shares her experiences with significant losses, including the deaths of her brother and stepbrother, which shaped her compassionate nature and deep understanding of grief's impact on the nervous system. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Ashley. Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:01:22] I know I had talked with you Um, and I've really been looking forward to having you on my show. So thank you so much for 

[00:01:32] Ashley: coming on. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here because we need to shed light on these hard topics. Yes, we 

[00:01:39] Jill: do. Why don't you just tell us about you, about Facebook group, like whatever it is you want to share that kind of tells us really what we're going to be talking about today.

[00:01:49] Ashley: I'm Ashley and I'm a holistic fertility coach who supports women struggling with infertility to bring mind, body and spirit back into balance and alignment and to create that fertile foundation within. I birth my business from my own experience and my own fertility struggles and have a Facebook group available because there are so many people struggling worldwide with infertility.

[00:02:13] There is so much unspoken. grief and miscarriages and a lot of unacknowledged pain and suffering that comes along with the fertility journey and really just shedding light and awareness and hope for those that are in that space and place. 

[00:02:29] Jill: Wonderful. Thank you. I know when we connected originally, it was kind of this idea that there really is so much unspoken grief around infertility and Even miscarriages.

[00:02:43] I had somebody on the podcast recently that we talked a little bit about her miscarriage and how she was even in the hospital and how she had to be around mothers that got to come home with babies while she did not get to come home with her baby. And yet people expect you just to move on and act like.

[00:03:01] Everything's fine. Everything's normal when really it's not. There's definitely a lot of grief that comes with it. And so I love that you're doing this work and I love that you're willing to talk about the fact that there really is this unspoken grief that runs through this whole process. If we don't honor our grief, We're never really going to be able to move forward.

[00:03:24] And so if you're only focused on the, well, we just need to focus on trying again. Let's try another time. Yeah. No, we need to honor these things. So I love it and I'm happy that you're here. 

[00:03:35] Ashley: Thank you. 

[00:03:35] Jill: And can you just tell me a little bit about you as like your background? Where are you from? Where'd you grow up?

[00:03:42] Um, did you deal with a lot of death and dying, anything like that when you were younger? 

[00:03:46] Ashley: I grew up in the middle of Canada in Manitoba. And I grew up in a small town at the age of 18. I truly left and went to New Zealand and kept going back and married a Kiwi. And I'm now back in Canada with my three children, but yeah, there was a lot of movement and part of what I think shapes all of us is sort of those first experiences with death.

[00:04:11] And for me, it was a challenging one and something that really impacted me. In a long way and continues to impact who I am and why I'm so caring and compassionate is I did lose my brother when I was 11. So that did shape who I am. And later when I lived in New Zealand, I also lost my stepbrother. And so there was sort of a recurring theme and also a calling to be able to process and move through this in a way that wasn't so traumatic.

[00:04:41] And that didn't impact me. So much in the way that I function and to realize the impact that it did have on my nervous system because it definitely did impact my nervous system. Loss was familiar and to keep repeating this cycle of loss month after month and not having what I achieved, it definitely was awakening on my yoga mat to really realize how My whole life had sort of impacted me up until now and to choose a different path forward and to see what was unseen before and to see that there was a different path forward and that there was options and alternatives and ways of thinking and being and living.

[00:05:20] Jill: I'm so sorry to hear about your brother and your stepbrother. I did not know that, but it does make a lot of sense then how you've been so aware of the grief. the infertility and the trying and not getting the results that you wanted and understanding that you were feeling grief. You were getting that same feeling.

[00:05:42] So, but that's terrible. I'm so 

[00:05:44] Ashley: sorry to hear that. I think that at the time, that's what Truly made me a seeker though, and that's sort of what led me onto this path was there had to be more, there had to be an understanding for me, and there had to be a peace come from within me that there never was.

[00:05:58] Through my healing journey, through my yoga journey, and my fertility journey, I finally had peace with all of it and stopped resisting life, I would say. And to know that it all served a purpose and made me who I am, and that beneath all that grief, there's just a huge layer of love. And that's really why those things were so deep seated and deep rooted within me.

[00:06:21] Jill: What's the way that people have worded it? The real essence of humans is love. That is what we are. But with the traumas, with all of these quote unquote bad things that happen to us, It kind of gets hidden it gets pushed down that if we can just kind of bring that back to the surface and just realize that that's really what we all are we're all love.

[00:06:41] It's that energy and sometimes I think we put the word God on it, but I think maybe it's just the same thing. It's just that energy that's within us that kind of connects all of us to each other. I'm assuming that the death of somebody in your family at 11 really impacted the entire family probably in many different ways.

[00:07:05] If you don't mind sharing with us some of that, how did the rest of your family deal with it? Were you all on the same page? Like how did all that kind of happen? 

[00:07:16] Ashley: I would say. That was truly the biggest lesson of all is that everybody handles grief differently, and there is no one right way to grieve or right way to move forward.

[00:07:30] And initially we all sort of pulled together and then everything fell completely apart. So hence why I ended up on the opposite end of the world. My parents divorced, so there was also other layers of grief. In there as well, one thing sort of created other things and I wouldn't say that it was a positive ripple effect.

[00:07:50] It was really a fight or flight of like, I'm just going to get out of here and really give myself some space and time and really start to find myself again and in a small way because I was very, very lost throughout my teenage years, I would say. Yeah, 

[00:08:09] Jill: it's understandable. Eleven years old is such an interesting age anyway, especially for girls, right?

[00:08:14] We're like kind of starting to go through puberty, things are changing, we're getting different attention because our bodies are changing. There's so much that's happening around that age anyway, and then you're forced to grow up even more with something like that. And unfortunately, I have heard of families that when there's a loss like that.

[00:08:34] They can't recover. It's like second and third losses as the families kind of fall apart and there's grief tied with that. And so yes, you've had a lot of death and grief in your life even before your fertility journey, which I did not know about. So thank you for sharing that with us. I'm sure it's not easy to talk about even, I don't know how old you are, but I assume it was many years ago now at this point.

[00:08:59] Ashley: Yes, it's been over 30 years, but. For the longest time I couldn't because that's also what we're not taught. We're not taught how to process and handle emotions, especially those emotions that are not deemed positive. And to show your face one way when you're feeling not like that internally. And so really knowing And accepting myself and all of myself, always, and whatever needs to move through me will move through me, but also giving myself the grace and the pat on the back that yes, I can have these conversations now and no, it hasn't been an easy path, but it's not easy for anyone, but it's also the understanding and learning of the life cycle and that we are nature and this is part and parcel of life and to accept life in all of its fullness.

[00:09:47] And I think also in the West, we have a different view of life, and what that means, and we don't honor life and death, you know, we only honor life, and we only honor life that is living, and not what's inside of us sometimes, and that's where I think that there's a big gap for those people. Women that are struggling with miscarriages or have a stillbirth or there's so many things that can come on this path and it's like a life is a life and it doesn't matter if it was one day or one week or one month or one breath.

[00:10:25] A loss is a loss. 

[00:10:26] Jill: It's true. A loss is a loss and it is frustrating as a woman to observe it in our society just We don't allow women the space to work with the grief and the loss when it comes to, like you said, miscarriages or even stillbirths. But again, even, there's still that little part of me that is like, it does feel, and thankfully I don't know what it's like to have a stillborn baby, but it feels like, to me, A miscarriage before there was any real signs, movement, ultrasounds, like any of those things, would feel less traumatic than a stillborn.

[00:11:10] But I don't know. Everybody's experience is different, and so to say to somebody, well, you were only three months pregnant versus a nine month old baby, you should feel this way. Why are we telling people what they should feel and not feel? Like we should not be doing that. Allow people the space. And that's why I love what you do.

[00:11:28] And I love your group because you give people the space to feel what they need to feel and not say, well, it shouldn't be this way or it shouldn't be that way. It's no, it's all allowed. It's all appropriate. And you mentioned yoga, and I am a huge fan of yoga. There is real healing power in yoga. How did you discover yoga?

[00:11:50] Ashley: My path to yoga was truly when my twins were younger, a 5 karma class on a Friday night initially. And I was just so drawn to it. And I kept going back and I initially I didn't understand But it was really that energetics of it and beginning to learn that I'm not just my physical body and beginning to tap into the energetics that are available to all of us that I wasn't even aware of and to begin to listen to my body and tune into my body and to dive deeper because It's not just about the poses, that's a piece of it, but it's really a small piece of it.

[00:12:29] And what was really so transformational for me was realizing I was so Yang like, and Yang energy, especially the first time around, trying to conceive. It was always, doing, making this happen, doing things down to an art, down to a science, or this isn't going to be possible for me. Versus on the flip side, having the awareness of what I really needed all along was some yin energy, and some slowing down, and some work with my nervous system.

[00:12:58] Um, and, and yoga is so powerful because it is like going to acupuncture for fertility. It opens up your meridian lines in the same way and restorative yoga is so healing to allow yourself to just be and it's so great for PTSD or if you've gone through any sort of trauma to just have that space for your body to simply rest.

[00:13:21] Because as a society in general, we don't do that. But we don't honor that and we don't. Realize how much we need that sometimes. And so, those two practices, really, as well as yoga nidra, which is a form of meditation, which is like yogic sleep, but works into your koshas and the five layers of your being.

[00:13:40] They are so healing, and they are so relaxing, and can bring you and your nervous system system into that state of rest and digest, which is really where you want to be when you're trying to conceive because it is stressful, but we need to be doing something with that stress. And it's not just a bubble bath, or it's not just go on a holiday.

[00:13:58] Everybody has to just do whatever, and that will be your answer. But it really is getting in tune and in touch with your body and honoring it on a whole other level. 

[00:14:09] Jill: So the yin is the more quote unquote feminine energy and the yang is the more masculine and most of us are very masculine energy dominant because of our society throughout our culture with everything this idea of that we have to fit things into boxes and things have to be done in a very masculine energy way when really the body and not just female bodied people but The body needs a balance of those energies.

[00:14:38] It needs also that more flowing and relaxing and like you mentioned, going on holidays and things. When we try to fit in our self care, it tends to also be very structured. I have to do this and I have to do that. And I'm going to go No, sometimes your body just wants to do nothing and that's still a struggle for me, but I've gotten better at listening to my body and being like, you know what?

[00:15:04] I have things to do on my to do list, but right now I don't need to do something. My body doesn't want to do something. I'm just going to lay down, which is really hard for me. It's hard for me to shift that. And even with my yoga practice, I started when I was 20. To for the first quite a few years. It was very structured It had to be very much this way like the style that I learned you do the same poses you do them in the same order It's the same amount of time everything was you have to do it this way and probably about four maybe five years ago I realized that I was actually causing myself some harm by doing that.

[00:15:45] Because then there was mornings when I was like, but no, I have to get up and I have to do the yoga and I have to do it this way when my body just didn't want to do it, but I was forcing myself to do it. And then I hurt my neck. I hurt my shoulder. And my husband's like, how did you hurt yourself doing yoga?

[00:16:00] You're supposed to be doing yoga. relax yourself and not hurt yourself. And I was like, yeah, well, that's what happens when you force yourself. And now the way that I practice is very different. Once I learned to listen to my body more, really the way that I feel throughout the day has changed. But it took a lot of unlearning and relearning to listen to that more feminine way of doing things in the world.

[00:16:25] But I mean, that's why it's a balance, right? That's why the yin and yang is that balance. It's because we can't have too much of one and not enough of the other, we will get out of balance and then we just are not going to function as well. 

[00:16:38] Ashley: I was the one who was always Hot yoga, hot yoga, like could teach three classes a day and I would leave when all the bolsters and the non heated room was there.

[00:16:48] And it was like, there was so much to learn that was so valuable. And it is an unlearning of all these things that we think we need to be doing in order to be healthy or in order to be fit. And it's really, when I, conceived immediately, I could not teach hot yoga because I had a headache and my body was just like, this is too hot.

[00:17:10] I'm also a pita in Ayurveda. So it was like too much fire energy for me. And it was just my own learning of I can do any style of yoga and I do yoga every day, but it doesn't need to be hot yoga. It's listen to my body and give my body what it needs every day. Instead of thinking that it can only be this way and it can only be for this amount of time in these poses, or it's not going to give me the benefits that I need, and there is benefits, there is a type of yoga I truly believe, for every person, and it's really just learning that and learning to listen to your body and give your body what it needs.

[00:17:44] Not what you think 

[00:17:45] Jill: it needs. And those are two different things. We often think that we need certain things in our lives. And in some ways too, it makes me even think of the way that we learn to self medicate, right? We get our addictions to caffeine, to sugar, to drugs, to alcohol, to all these different things.

[00:18:04] And then eventually it's like this point where we need it. We have to. To do the thing, we have to have the thing, but we could also get addicted to things that are healthy, right? Exercising and eating a certain way and feeling like, but I have to have things this way. It's that same desire to have control.

[00:18:22] It's that same need that we're filling. Maybe it is healthier if it's exercise, fancy shakes and whatnot versus caffeine and drugs or alcohol. But who knows in the long run, right? You can still not be healthy and look like you're strong and healthy on the outside. It doesn't mean that your body is healthy on the inside.

[00:18:43] I think some of that too is that idea of not processing things. I'm a believer, especially again, grief, right? So much of what we lose in our lives, whether it's The death of somebody, the death of pets, the ending of friendships, the ending of jobs, relationships, all these things have all this grief that we don't process.

[00:19:02] And so it kind of like builds up in our body, which is why I really think that yoga is one of the best things for grief because there's that movement. It helps to move that energy through you and move it out. Even if you don't consciously know that that's what you're doing. We often hold all that stuff in our body.

[00:19:19] And so, if we don't move it out, it's gonna cause things that we don't, maybe don't even know. Things like infertility could definitely be in that category of, if we're holding all this stuck energy in our body, our body is like, no, we can't have a baby because we're too busy trying to just hold it all together.

[00:19:36] Ashley: There really is An inner learning of where our organs house these emotions, especially with the hatha or the more structured sort of heated poses and the flows and the fast movements. You're not really getting into the issues in your tissues, but with yin, you do. And it's learning to breathe into that discomfort on your mat so you can do it off of your mat.

[00:20:01] And really, that is a So healing, I know, pigeon pose for most people, or swan, and yin isn't comfortable, the first, maybe, twenty times you do it, but you learn to breathe into that, you learn to be able to calm your mind, and to sit with things, because, We are masters of distraction and not wanting to sit with anything or to not be with or feel any sort of emotion and it is the perfect opportunity to move through it and hip opening postures often cause people to be like, want to leave the yoga room or just not even go into them at all because there's too much health there.

[00:20:41] Jill: Especially in women, we tend to hold a lot of trauma in our womb, in our hip area. That's often because, unfortunately, a lot of women, we also have sexual trauma somewhere in our history, which is unfortunate. But it is the reality for most women. And I know pigeon pose is actually one of the ones. I hated it.

[00:21:01] Hated it. And I wouldn't do it. It wasn't part of the traditional set the way that I originally learned it. And so when I went to other people's yoga classes and we had to get in a pigeon pose, I just, I wouldn't even really do it. And I didn't understand why. And then the more that I started to learn of as you're opening your hips, if you are storing trauma in that area.

[00:21:24] You're going to feel not just in the body, you're going to start to feel some of these emotions. And so for a really long time, I would not get into it. And now it's one of my favorites. I love it. It's like once I, like you said, and learn to embrace the discomfort and also understood that. I had to move this energy out of me.

[00:21:43] I didn't want to hold it anymore. And the discomfort that I was feeling was not going to hurt me, right? Like the discomfort itself, if I could sit through it, if I could breathe through it, if I could just be with it, if I could honor it. And also feel the sadness of like, well, yeah, things happen. And so now your body needs to release them and you can feel sad that these things happen.

[00:22:05] It's all right to, it doesn't mean you're feeling sorry for yourself. It doesn't mean you're playing the victim, but you can feel sad that things happen in your life and say, you know what, I'm sorry that this happened to you, but now it's time to release it. So like I did, I worked through that whole process, but it's funny when you mentioned pigeon pose, I was like, Oh yeah, I know that one.

[00:22:25] I really used to avoid it. And now I understand why, but now I love it. So 

[00:22:31] Ashley: there is the sentiment that the pose you resist the most is the pose that you need the most. And oftentimes I catch myself usually on a daily being like, I don't really want to do that one. Oh, but I probably should do that one.

[00:22:45] That's what I need. But I sometimes don't want to do that. And when you're your own teacher, sometimes you don't push yourself or you're too lenient or you don't always. Go to your edge or meet those growth moments that are really needed for you. And sometimes you need to honor them and sometimes you need to push the limits a little bit and be like, do I really need this or is this helpful or is this hurtful?

[00:23:09] Because we never want to be hurtful and re traumatize ourselves, but we also want to be mindful of what do we actually need in the moment and be able to give that to ourselves. 

[00:23:20] Jill: Yes, because we Often don't listen to ourselves and what we really need in the moment, we just push and push and push because that's what we've been told, that's what our culture tells us we should do, unfortunately, but we're changing it right little bit at a time, little bit at a time.

[00:23:36] Yeah. And so Like the, the work that you do with women, can you tell me a little bit more about the processes that you do or how you do the thing that you do? 

[00:23:48] Ashley: I work one to one and it is personalized. It is customized because we're all unique. Our fertility journey has been unique. And so I honor women where they're at.

[00:23:59] So if they've come to me with a lot of miscarriages, for example, there's healing that really needs to happen first. Before we sort of move on to other things and I offer yoga, I offer yoga, nidra meditations and chakra balancing and Reiki and all of this energy medicine and Ayurveda, which is a sister science to yoga that is really just bringing the body back back into balance and alignment.

[00:24:24] And for most of us, it's not the way that we have been living or have been brought up to live. And it isn't a bad or a trend or a quick fix. It is a lifestyle that is sustainable, not only on your fertility journey, but you have this knowledge about yourself and you learn so much about yourself and you can use it moving forward.

[00:24:44] Once you have your children and you can see in your children sort of what constitution they are and why they may be reacting to things as the way they are, or why they may be showing symptoms or something, and you begin to learn how everything is related, everything is connected, and if something is showing up for us, it's asking for us to acknowledge it and to witness it and to look.

[00:25:09] perhaps find a different perception or perspective of it and work with it and with ourselves in a different way. When I had my 

[00:25:18] Jill: children, there was so much that was shown to me by my children where I still was needing to heal. There was the grief that I didn't really expect in the way that my life changed so much.

[00:25:36] And there was shame with that because it's not that I didn't love my children. It's not that I didn't want them, but there was this part of me that was, I was a little bit older. So at 32, I had a life. That then changed so much because now I had this little baby that I had to take care of. And especially for some of it for me, and again, this is probably not the healthiest, but when I had my son, I owned a bakery at the time, and my husband and I worked there together.

[00:26:05] And we worked all the time. All the time. Like, we'd get there, Four or five o'clock in the morning, we'd leave at 11 o'clock at night, go home, go to sleep for a few hours, go back, do it all over again. And suddenly I couldn't do that anymore. And I realized how much that impacted my self worth. So much of my identity was tied into working and working really hard.

[00:26:27] And now all of a sudden I was home and I had this baby and I actually, I would brought him to work all the time. I was always wearing them, but I still couldn't work out. the way that I used to. And then after we had our daughter and we closed our bakery, the first time I filled out a piece of paper and it asked for my occupation and I had to say none, I was like, Oh, I don't like this.

[00:26:52] This feels really weird to me. And it really was this. grieving of the way that my life used to be. And the more that I felt shame about it, the more that I felt embarrassed about it, really the worse it got. Then over time, once I realized that I was really just grieving, and it's appropriate to grieve it.

[00:27:12] Life is about change and that's okay, but you can also say it's all right. And so when I left my job as Chef Jill, I actually did a little ritual and I kind of like put Chef Jill to bed. We're going to have a little mini funeral for her. And I still teach part time, but it just was something that I knew I had to do in order to take the next step to moving into the career I'm in now.

[00:27:35] I had to really honor the career that I was leaving and say, it's okay, but we're not taught to do that. And it's so frustrating. 

[00:27:43] Ashley: We're not really taught to honor all the phases because so many women think I just need to get pregnant and it's not just about getting pregnant. There's more to it than that.

[00:27:53] You want to get pregnant. You want to have a healthy pregnancy. You want to have a healthy delivery. You want to be healthy in mind, body, and spirit to care for this baby when you're at home with a newborn and they can stop crying. You want to be able to cope and have tools and resources at your disposal.

[00:28:11] Disposal to be able to help you because when I was at home with twins for the first time as a new mom, wasn't over my head and I never felt like I had enough hands or that there was enough of me to go around. My husband worked seven hour shifts and I would phone him after seven hours and be like, you need to come home.

[00:28:28] I just can't anymore. And so I think that the second time around when it was just one and I was like, what does everybody complain about one about? This is so easy. Yeah, I also had on the flip side a complete transformation in my body and spirit where the first time around it was stress, it was high risk, it was an emergency c section and recovery thereafter and after I And embodied a holistic lifestyle.

[00:28:56] I was hiking when my water broke and had a natural delivery and was back at baby and me yoga 10 days later. So it's night and day difference, same person and Dean Geriatric the second time around, and it just was an empowering experience to know what is truly possible for us. 

[00:29:14] Jill: It really does make a difference.

[00:29:16] How we feel in our heart and our mind will really impact, especially I found with my daughter in particular, she's my second one. But I think even with my son, my first, she really can feel what I'm feeling. Like there's times when I know that she can, and it was really difficult sometimes because then I would.

[00:29:41] Be stressed and anxious so then she would cry more and then the more that she cried the more stressed and anxious I got and then we would just get into this like loop and we still do it sometimes now She's 10 and we still do it sometimes now We're like if i'm feeling a little funky She gets a little funky and then we feed into it.

[00:29:58] My husband will be like all right breaking the two of you up You gotta go in separate rooms. What are you doing? I believe there's something else with our children. I would say probably even if they're not your biological children, but because you're so close, you're so connected, if you're raising a child and your energies just kind of get all blended together too.

[00:30:16] So you feel so much more of what the other person is feeling. You're right too that when so many women, it's like, well, I just want to have a baby. And then I'm like, well, but what about the rest of it? Like, The baby becomes a child and the child becomes a teen, and there's a lot more to having children than just having babies.

[00:30:35] Sometimes I think we get this idea of like, well, the hard part is just getting to the baby. Like, no, that's actually when the real work starts. Like, once the baby gets here, Because again, mine are 10 and 13 now, I thought that I would worry about them less as they got older because when they were little, I was always worried they're going to pull something on themselves.

[00:30:53] They're going to fall in the pool. Like there was all these things that I was so worried was going to happen to them when they were little. And then it's like, Oh, well, as they get older, I'll worry less. No, I still worry just as much, possibly more now, but it's just different worry. You know, like I don't think you ever stop worrying about your babies, even when they're not babies anymore.

[00:31:14] Ashley: I wrote in one of the chapters I did, it's like a piece of your heart is walking outside of you, right? And you always want the best for them. And you don't want to see them struggle or suffer, but you have to sort of honor that they're on their own path too. And they have to sort of learn and experience things for themselves.

[00:31:32] Jill: Hmm. And that's the truth. This idea that I want to keep. them safe, keep them from suffering, especially having a young woman out in the world now, just want to keep her safe from all of it. And the reality is, I don't think I can, I can just try to teach her as best as I can. And also let her know that no matter what happens, she has a safe space in me that she can come to me because I think that's one of the biggest things.

[00:32:01] is when something happens to us that's traumatic, if we don't talk to somebody, if we don't let it out, then we're gonna really hold it and we're really gonna store it. Where if we have somebody that we can go to and talk to and feel like we can allow ourselves to process it, In the moment, or not too long afterwards, I feel like it'll be much less traumatic in the long run, and won't affect the rest of their lives, potentially, the way that a lot of us, when we have things happen to us.

[00:32:35] If we don't process it, it affects all of our interactions with other humans. It just affects so much, right? And then we don't even realize that I'm having a hard time focusing at work because of this thing that happened when I was a child. When, if I could have processed it then, then maybe I would be okay now.

[00:32:54] Hopefully we're learning and hopefully this next generation of children will have different experiences. I think we can 

[00:33:01] Ashley: always just hope to sort of give our children the tools and resources that we didn't have and the things that truly, that we wish we had, that we've learned and to empower them and to always honor where they're at in their journey, right?

[00:33:15] They're just showing us and mirroring to us what it is that we also need to see. And to look at ourselves as well. They are the greatest learning that we really have on earth. It's what they tell us and what they show us every day. 

[00:33:27] Jill: That's the truth. Our children will definitely push us to learn and to grow.

[00:33:32] And maybe that's part of just the natural process of things. Maybe that's part of why we're here as humans and why we do the things that we do, why we have the children, why we grow and learn. So I'm trying to think now, like, what I've read about maybe like other like religions or things that have said about that because I feel like I've heard something along those lines about Lord Children being our greatest teachers to reflect back to us what it is we need to work on the most.

[00:34:01] Yeah, 

[00:34:01] Ashley: what I learned. from a former monk, he would always remind me that this is where you're at, and this is what they're trying to show you, and really how sacred, really, the whole, for true, the journey of motherhood is, and how much is happening, and how much I wasn't even aware of that is going on, preconception, conception, to birthing them, and how much These little balls of joy are just holding on to and how to help them the most when they sort of need it the most so that they can have a beautiful, vibrant life.

[00:34:35] If there's struggles being delivered or in the womb or all of these things, it's just a signal of what may be to come if it's not processed and worked through at that time. I think 

[00:34:46] Jill: about the idea of reincarnation, that if it really is a thing, I don't know if it is, but then potentially these little beings, these little souls are also bringing with them things that happened in past lives.

[00:35:00] And so then they're coming here and we like to look at. Babies as these blank slates when really maybe they are coming in with wisdom and also traumas and other things. I sometimes I do think my son is an old man in a little person's body. There's so many different people. I'm just like this old soul, right?

[00:35:21] Yeah, well, exactly. I've had people say that to me that I was an old soul. And when I was younger, I was kind of like, okay, whatever. And now I'm like, Yeah, I've probably been around the block a few times if reincarnation is a real thing and I don't know. Sometimes I think like, oh that would be kind of nice if reincarnation was a real thing and potentially to be able to come back with my family and see them all again.

[00:35:44] And then other times I'm like, I don't really want to do this again. Like, can this be it? I don't want anymore. I don't really 

[00:35:50] Ashley: have control. What my sort of teachings have been is that we all have karma for this lifetime, and what isn't resolved in this lifetime is, is to be resolved in a future one. There are certain things that you can affect within your karma, and there are certain things that are predestined, and it is part of your karma within your time here on earth to experience what you are experiencing.

[00:36:15] And sometimes, I think, Why me? So I'll ask for all of these things, but it did for a reason. That's my journey and the things that I have to work through and move through. 

[00:36:26] Jill: If we did ask for some of these lessons, because I've heard that there's that idea too, that not only is there the reincarnation from one life to another, but that there's the in between, and we say, okay, well, in this next life, I want to learn these things.

[00:36:42] These are the lessons I choose to learn. Put me back and let me learn these lessons. Sometimes it's like, oh, well, that's interesting. Why did I choose this thing? But I guess if I did choose it, there must have been a reason. 

[00:36:54] Ashley: We want to know why, but we're not at the why now, and it doesn't allow us to be perfect.

[00:36:59] Present in the moment when we're so focused outwardly, our mind is what is getting in the way, right? We want to know when and where and how, and we think that it has to be on our timeline and that's just not the way it works. We have to surrender and let 

[00:37:13] Jill: that go. That's that very masculine energy again of like, I need to know why, and I need to know when it's going to happen, and no, maybe we just need to let go, and then it would actually get even clearer to us.

[00:37:26] But we can get in our own way. We're just human. We're not perfect. We gotta give ourselves that grace and that compassion to say, it's okay that I'm not perfect and that I'm still learning and I'm still making mistakes along the way and it's all okay. 

[00:37:41] Ashley: Absolutely. We are exactly where we're meant to be, even though we don't think so sometimes.

[00:37:46] Jill: And that's the truth. The more that I can relax into that and be present with what is, the more that I can just be like, okay, but right now, right this moment, it's actually okay. The things that I'm worried about, or the things that I'm thinking about that happened in the past, right in this moment, they're not actually here.

[00:38:05] So just be okay with being here. But that's definitely easier said than done. 

[00:38:10] Process. It is a process for sure. And you mentioned something about the book that you wrote. I have written in three multi author books. 

[00:38:18] Ashley: One is called The Sacred Dance, one is called Sacred Surrender, and one is called Nourished.

[00:38:24] So there are three chapters out there. So if you're struggling with infertility, Nourished is the one for you. You're struggling with spirituality, then Sacred Surrender is the one for you. And if you want to know more about my sacred journey and so how I ended up in Canada to New Zealand and dancing with the rhythm of life and all that it has brought to me, then the Sacred Dance is, it's for you.

[00:38:49] Jill: Oh, wonderful. Yeah. And I could put links in the show notes as well to those so that people can easily find them. And I like, what did you say, dancing with the rhythm of life? Is that how you say it? Yes, 

[00:38:59] Ashley: because for the longest time there was so much resistance and so much non acceptance. I thought my life would have been better, okay, if this hadn't happened.

[00:39:11] And I really thought that Bad things shouldn't happen to good people. And I had a lot of attachments and expectations that didn't serve me, but I also didn't know how to let go of them or find peace and acceptance in what was and how to move on. Like I never truly moved on because I didn't know how, I wasn't showing how, and I didn't have the resources that I needed.

[00:39:35] I feel a 

[00:39:35] Jill: lot of that where sometimes I feel really grateful. for the fact that there wasn't worse things that happened to me. And then there's other times when I'm just like, in some ways, actually grateful for some of the bad things that happened to me, because I feel like I learned so much from them.

[00:39:54] Doesn't mean that I want to repeat any of it, but also, I feel that there is that attachment. and aversion to not wanting bad things to happen. I just want to push away all the bad stuff and being attached to the good things in life. But then sometimes we do get attached even to the bad things, right?

[00:40:14] There's times when I will find myself, what's the word, ruminating, right? Like thinking and thinking and thinking about a situation and then realizing that what is this? Giving me what is this doing for me because it has to be doing something it has to be giving me something or I wouldn't Be stuck in this cycle So then I started listening more to my body and I was actually doing it even this morning where I was like Rethinking about a conversation that had been upsetting to me and it's not even a recent conversation, right?

[00:40:43] But every once in a while something will trigger that memory and then i'll think about the conversation And then I was like, all right, well, where do you feel it in your body? And I was like, well, my heart's beating a little bit faster. I can feel it kind of like rising up from the lower part of my body.

[00:40:58] I could feel this almost like heat rising up. And I'm just like, well, whether it's positive or negative, whether it's good or bad, there is something that's happening in my body. My body is feeling something that. In some ways, I wouldn't keep returning to this situation if I wasn't attached to that feeling right if that feeling wasn't making me feel like, well I was right and they were wrong or whatever it is whatever stories are going on in my head, but it really is so much about.

[00:41:26] It's about getting in touch with our body and not just our mind and what we're thinking about, but it takes time, it takes practice, it takes learning to really get in touch with our body and what's happening here, not just like what's going on up here. 

[00:41:43] Ashley: Yeah, there's definitely whatever's arising sort of there's always a charge to it if it's still surfacing and yoga.

[00:41:48] They're called samskaras, right? So when we start the healing journey, we just start to heal these layers, but there is always a trace layer. And I think People have the misconception of being healed or I don't want to feel this. I don't want this to affect me anymore. And it's this learning. And I remember explaining this to one of my clients that they thought, well, I thought I dealt with this already.

[00:42:13] And I showed what the healing journey looks like and the process looks like. And it's not linear. It's not a one and done sort of thing. It's a journey noticing it, but every time it arises, you release sort of the charge from it and it becomes less and less and less over time when you allow yourself to be with what is present and what's arising within 

[00:42:33] Jill: you.

[00:42:33] And not trying to push it down and avoid it, just really being present with it and honoring it and listening to it and doing all, all the things, but it's definitely easier said than done. Was there any last things you want to leave 

[00:42:47] Ashley: us with before we wrap it up? I would love to leave you with the sentiment of to honor your heart wherever you are in your journey and to give yourself the time and space to process what is, what is there, what is present, what is asking to be witnessed and healed and to give yourself the space and time to do so.

[00:43:08] And if you are struggling to conceive, I do welcome you openly into the Holistic Fertility Coach Facebook group because there is a place for you to land exactly as you are and it's a safe, sacred space for you to be. Wonderful. 

[00:43:22] Jill: And I will put a link to the Facebook group. I'll put a link to the books you mentioned.

[00:43:26] Thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Clearly. In my next episode, I talk with Lisa Paul, a licensed clinical social worker that works in hospice care. and the co creator of The Death Deck, a conversation starting game designed to help people discuss death and end of life preferences before a crisis.

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