Embracing Shadows and Rebirth: A Grief Journey with Kristy Sue Bishop

In this episode, I have a guest, Kristy Sue Bishop. Kristy Sue has devoted herself to exploring the depths of life’s shadows with identity death and embracing her new identity as the grieving slut and the rebirth witch. Kristy’'s journey began with the death of her ex-husband, which brought about complicated grief and a sense of isolation as she didn't fit into the mold of a traditional widow.

This difficult experience set her on a path of healing by addressing her grief. During that time, she had to grieve on different levels. She mourned the times when he was her partner and best friend. She also grieved the good and bad moments in their marriage. 

Many people believe in finding closure by talking to others. They think that by doing so, they'll get the closure they need. Kristy Sue has come to realize that you don't necessarily need external conversations for closure. Often, it's an internal process of understanding and acceptance that brings the closure we seek.

This realization was powerful for her. It allowed her to see where I lacked personal boundaries and where I gave too much to the relationship. Healing on her own made her realize that she couldn't blame him anymore; he was no longer part of the picture. This process brought up deeper aspects of herself,  and she went on a journey through her grief, reflecting on why she hadn't addressed these emotions earlier. No one ever tells us it's okay to grieve things in life that we lose. We experience many small losses in life, even if they're positive changes. 

Kristy also talks about how she was unexpectedly thrown into a situation where she had to tell her kids about their dad's impending death. This experience, though incredibly difficult, gave her the courage to talk to them about anything. If she could share the hardest news with them, then discussing topics like sex became easier.

Now, she is open to discussing anything with her kids. This unfortunate event made her realize that there's no need to shy away from conversations. Discussing topics like sex, which might seem uncomfortable, became a lot more manageable.

You can find Kristy on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/death_priestess/

Chapters

• 2:11 About Kristy Sue
• 5:53 Death of her ex-husband
• 9:08 Dark Goddess journey
• 13:29 Duality in life and grief
• 17:10 Why “Grief is Love” is not accurate
• 21:12 Showing up online
• 25:23 Dealing with death is a process
• 30:01 Healthy conversations with children
• 37:30 Where to find Kristy
• 38:32 Next weeks guest

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kristy: I realized when I was grieving and I was allowed to grieve, I said, oh, I felt this feeling before in my life and I just didn't know what it was. There's grief just in everything, and I don't think that we acknowledge that enough. 

[00:00:14] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennan, a death doula and end-of-life coach.

[00:00:20] Here on my show I have conversations with guests. That explores the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create an open space where we can challenge preconceived notions and explore different perspectives on these important topics. It's my hope that you'll be encouraged to broaden your understanding and consider ideas beyond what you may already believe to be true.

[00:00:42] In this episode, my guest is Kristy Sue Bishop. Kristy Sue has devoted herself to exploring the depths of life’s shadows. With identity death and embracing her new identity as the grieving slut and the rebirth witch. Christie's journey began with the death of her ex-husband, which brought about complicated grief and a sense of isolation as she didn't fit into the mold of a traditional widow.

[00:01:06] This challenging experience put her on a path of healing by working with her grief. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the show, Christie. Sue, thank you so much for being here. I've been following you on Instagram and I am so excited to talk to you. 'cause I know we've interacted a little bit online, but this is kind of as close as we could get to face-to-face, so well, thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:30] Kristy: Thank you. No, I'm super excited. I feel like we are like long-distance friends, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like we super support each other, but then we're also like, I actually met, so it's nice to be here with you. Thank you. Thank you. 

[00:01:45] Jill: And where are you at now? You're in Detroit? 

[00:01:46] Kristy: Yes, I'm in Detroit, Michigan.

[00:01:49] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And is that where you're originally from? Yeah. Yeah. Born and raised. 

[00:01:55] Jill: So if you want to share with us a little bit about your background, how old you are, any religious beliefs growing up, like anything like that, that kind of sets us up for knowing who you are and how you kind of formed your beliefs around death and dying and grief and all that good stuff.

[00:02:11] Kristy: It's interesting, like grew up kind of like middle class, right? We really didn't have any religious background. We never went to church or anything like that. I would go to church with my friends, but there was never any of that religion in our house. I feel like a lot of my beliefs were just kind of grabbed out of the air from the way I was around the people, my community, and just the overall view of the world and what you kind of grab as you're growing up.

[00:02:43] I was raised mostly by my father. My parents were divorced, so kind of like the average, typical little American life. And then I. Got married later in life, had kids, and then my husband died. We were divorced at the time actually. That's where kind of things get a little rocky too, because I don't really feel like a widow.

[00:03:06] I feel like a widow, but I feel like I don't belong to that category so much. Right. Because I feel like that's kind of a different category. I loved him. We raised children together and we had a great relationship before he passed, but things didn't work out. So I feel like there's this weird, I don't know where I belong kind of now in this little death doula world, and it's an interesting kind of thing.

[00:03:32] I've kind of come up with the word like widow ish. I like that. Yeah. Right. I live the life of a widow because I have all the responsibilities. I don't have another parent here for the kids. I have grieved. Kids that I am raising. I grieve for the loss of him and the love of him, but there are also just other levels of it that are not really there for other widows and things like that.

[00:03:56] So that's interesting as well. I feel like my relationship with grief might be a little bit different also because I have had to mend my relationship with him. So it wasn't all love. I'm not really mending a relationship. Out of love all the time, if that makes sense. Right. So there's also part of it where it's, you know, I also have to mend the troublesome times a lot of my grief work.

[00:04:23] I try to make it more accessible for people who are in troublesome relationships, and then that person passes. Because I understand that I've experienced it, so I get that it can be different and more strenuous when you're grieving for somebody that you didn't have a really great relationship with and you felt like you wish you would've if that, yeah.

[00:04:43] Jill: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Another widow that I had spoken with, she was still married, but she kind of said something similar, how all the books and all the groups that you go to and everything is like, oh, I'm this heartbroken widow. This like deep love that I had is now gone. And part of me does wonder how much of that is actually true, or is it just that now the person is gone and they're.

[00:05:07] Not dealing with the fact that relationships are complicated with people. Mm-hmm. And as much as you can love somebody, that doesn't mean that it's the perfect relationship. So when somebody dies, there are all these loose ends of healing around the fact that yes, you love somebody and now they're gone.

[00:05:25] But there's also all these other things. And I love that you're talking about how to work with. That complicated grief that comes when you love a person. Mm-hmm. But in your case, like you had already ended the relationship. 

[00:05:39] Kristy: Yep. 

[00:05:39] Jill: So you almost have two sets of grieving to do around the same person. Because ending a relationship we need to grieve as well, even if we know it's the right decision.

[00:05:49] But that also doesn't mean you're prepared for somebody you love to die either. 

[00:05:52] Kristy: Right. 

[00:05:53] Jill: Was he sick for a while or how did that kind of happen? 

[00:05:58] Kristy: We got divorced and it was like a year later, right? We would go in and outta speaking terms. So when he was diagnosed with cancer, it had been like a year, and we weren't even really on speaking terms at that point.

[00:06:14] It's like I knew that he was having health issues and I knew that he was getting into the doctor and trying to figure everything out. And then at the end, it got just really bad. They couldn't figure out what was wrong with him. And then finally they admitted into the hospital and he called me and told me.

[00:06:28] So at that point, I went to see him and I was like, listen, everything's. Gone. We're not gonna deal with this divorce thing right now and we're not talking. We have to come together because we have the kids, and the last thing I want is to not be there for you. You know? So that's what we did. We just started to work together, I'd say as best as possible for our situation.

[00:06:53] It wasn't perfect. Even now, it's funny 'cause like literally just like last week things have been coming up about it where I didn't allow myself really to ask for what I needed because I was so worried about him, right? That I wasn't allowing myself to get what I needed. Like from that separation, still, I was more worried about him and how he was doing and me telling him, I love you.

[00:07:16] I'm still here to support you. I wanted him to know very clearly that like, this sucks. For me, right? Like, 'cause I still cared about him. I wanted him to know that, but I didn't feel like I was getting the things that I needed like feeling that closure. I'm still dealing with that, which is fun.

[00:07:32] It's been like four years now, but that's just how things work. It's like you have to worry about what's in front of your face sometimes I think with grief. I was so focused on getting our family life with me and the kids going and making sure I was doing that whole nurturing role while I was just taking care of everybody else.

[00:07:47] At that time, I had to totally grieve, like I always say, that I was grieving totally different parts of him because I was grieving when we were together and when he was like my best friend. I grieved when we were together in our marriage, the good times and the bad, and then I had to grieve for the divorced area of time when we weren't getting along.

[00:08:06] It's funny too because everybody's like, they wanna talk to somebody else about closing. Like, oh, I need to talk to this person. You get closure. And I've just kind of, no, you really don't need to. It's really just like all of that was within you and just getting to that point with yourself when you can give it to yourself, really what you need from them.

[00:08:24] And. It was huge, it was really healing for me too, because I got to see parts of myself where I didn't have enough boundaries for myself, or I was giving in too much to the relationship. So healing it by myself, kind of like I, I didn't have him to blame anymore, you know like he was out of the picture.

[00:08:46] I had to look at it from just what I was doing and how I responded to everything. So it was really this eye-opening experience. To see my responsibility and everything and how I didn't want that to happen again. 

[00:09:00] Jill: And I'm sure it's not an experience that you are looking to have to find that healing, but Yeah.

[00:09:04] Kristy: Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't planned. 

[00:09:08] Jill: I'm actually reading a book right now about the Dark Goddess and about how you can journey to meet the Dark Goddess because you are making the conscious decision and finding all those parts of yourself that you need to work on. You need to heal or you meet the dark goddess when you're thrust into it, when life just kind of throws it at you.

[00:09:29] We kind of have a choice. We can do this work before we get thrown into these situations. And so as you were talking about that, it was making me think about that. I was like, oh, that was your dark Scottish journey. Like you totally really? 

[00:09:42] Kristy: Yes. Oh, 100%. You have to find it. Amazing. I even going into that, I was like, once he died, it was okay for death.

[00:09:50] It's like in grief. We always associate the two together, right? And we put them together and they belong together. And it's also like for grief, that's when you're actually allowed to grieve is when somebody dies, right? So now that you know, it's so, it’s going for it, right? Like, grieve all you want. I realized when I was grieving and I was allowed to grieve, I said, oh, I felt this feeling before in my life and I just didn't know what it was, right?

[00:10:18] Or I didn't acknowledge it. I didn't allow it to have its full moment. So then it was kind of this going back into our relationship and then just also going back into all these other areas of my life where I'd felt that grief before and just never acknowledged it. That sent me even further down into that whole goddess, the dark journey.

[00:10:40] It was, you know, it's all that shadow work that comes up. I was just like, oh, I've totally felt yearning in this area of my life. Oh, I felt lost over here. Oh, I feel like I'm missing something here. I constantly went in and it was just like this little grief exploration. Of my life. 'cause I was like, why did I never go back and process any of this?

[00:11:01] Or how come nobody, nobody ever told me it's okay to grieve for these things. 'cause we have so many little deaths in our life. You know, they could just be like the things that are good for us. There's still hard to do and you still might lose something from it. Even with growth, it's like I am doing this business by myself and I'm giving up a lot of things to do it right.

[00:11:23] So even right there, there's the loss in there, there's grief just in everything, and I don't think that we acknowledge. Enough. Yeah. 

[00:11:31] Jill: We definitely don't acknowledge it as a culture. We're not mm-hmm. Taught to acknowledge it. And you're right. When I started learning more about grief, I started realizing how many times in my life I didn't grieve.

[00:11:45] Mm-hmm. The way that I should have, because we're not given permission, we're not taught that that's even appropriate and that the things that we are feeling, You know, losses of all kinds of things. And I like that you pointed out even when something positive happens. 'cause Yeah, same thing for me with my business.

[00:12:05] I spend so much time on my business and on this podcast and like all these other things, and I am not saying that I don't want to do that. And I'm not saying that I regret doing that, but it also does take me away from doing other things. Mm-hmm. And it's okay. Also, I can acknowledge the fact that sometimes when I see other people doing things and I'm like, oh man, I can't do that though.

[00:12:30] 'cause I have to get this podcast edited and I need to get this thing out and I need to send this email. And it's okay to honor that feeling where we get embarrassed and we feel shame and then we, for me at least, I'll feel silly where I'll be like that. Well, that's really dumb. Like why do I feel that bad about something when it's just a feeling?

[00:12:50] Mm-hmm. There's nothing dumb about it. There's nothing silly. If we honor the feeling, then if anything that's when we can like move through it and then kind of let that go and then show up fully for what we're trying to do. Because we are honoring the fact that like, yes, I love my business, but also it takes a lot of time and it's not making me a lot of money, but I think that it will later on.

[00:13:13] And so I'm putting in the time now and it's like I've got both things that I'm juggling. It's okay to have both things, and it's okay to sometimes feel exhausted and frustrated and also be like, but this is really, it feels like my life's purpose. Mm-hmm. And so I know 

[00:13:29] Kristy: I need to do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard.

[00:13:31] It's just like that, introducing that duality in life. We don't really honor it enough or accept that it's, it's one way or the other. You know, death and grief brings in a lot of duality 'cause you can feel so much gratitude at the same time. Anybody who's lost somebody or gone through a huge grief experience, a major loss in life has, has experienced where you're like having a really good day, but that also something might come up or you're just.

[00:13:59] In grief still, and you're like, I feel really great, but I'm actually still grieving really hard. And it's okay. You don't have to be one or the other. And I think that's another thing that we get really stuck on is either you have to be really grieving hard, right? Because it's like people, I feel like when I was.

[00:14:20] At a point and I could go out and laugh and smile again. People were like, oh, you're better now. And I'm like, oh, I'm better. I don't understand what that means, but if you think I'm done grieving, no, I'm not done grieving. I'm just allowed to actually still have a good time in life. Grieve at the same time.

[00:14:36] You know, I think a big part of what I want people to kind of understand about grief is that accepting, as you said, you have those thoughts about yourself, like when you're feeling grief, and I think we need to actually just accept more of ourselves when we are. Messy like that. Right? And I always say it like this, it's like you don't necessarily have to love yourself at the moment, right?

[00:15:03] But as long as you're devoted to yourself at the moment, then you're great, right? Because I understand that love is very complicated. And at moments we're not gonna love ourselves, or we're just gonna feel a little bit down on ourselves. And I think instead of like doubling it up and just saying, oh, you're stupid for feeling this, just be like, I'm totally stupid for feeling like this.

[00:15:27] You know? It's just like, but I'm totally just devoted to this. I don't even care. I'm gonna feel it. It's gonna be great. We're gonna get through it. It's just like accepting yes, we go through horrible experiences. I. Where we just don't like ourselves sometimes, and I feel like that's how grief is.

[00:15:44] It's like I didn't like myself a whole lot when I was grieving. And I think there's also this huge mindset that comes with it. And our mindset changes a lot when we're grieving. And I just, I really want people to accept that more. That we don't have to be all put together in perfect grieving. It can, you know, it's.

[00:16:07] It's just this weird, messy experience that can last for a long time, and I feel like life can get away from us a lot. And I want people to stay devoted to getting into life instead of digging deeper into the grief.

[00:16:23] Jill:  I  like that distinction that we don't have to always love ourselves because sometimes I do feel frustrated when I see these things of like, just love yourself more.

[00:16:34] Mm-hmm. And I'm like, sometimes. I'm not very lovable. 

[00:16:38] Kristy: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:39] Jill: Like I'm not. I know I'm not, and Yep. I also don't dislike that part of myself because sometimes that's the part of myself that needs to show up in the world and it's okay. And I also don't love her very much 'cause it always makes, and then I would feel a little bit of guilt and I would feel shame and I would feel all these other things.

[00:17:02] So I like that distinction of that. I don't necessarily have to love those parts of myself, but I am devoted to showing up. Mm-hmm. In the way that I need to show up at the time fully.

[00:17:10] Kristy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another thing we use in grief a lot, is that grief is love. That's another one that pisses me off because I have a different perspective.

[00:17:22] I went through a different experience with my grief. I had to grieve. Something, that didn't have a lot of love at the time. So that, for me was hard. And that irritated me really. Like that really triggered me. 'cause I was mad about that, um, when I was grieving. 'cause I'm like, well, that's not fair to say.

[00:17:39] I feel like that's like this prepackaged explanation of grief. And, it just didn't sit well with me the more I thought about it. I was like, I don't want, like, I get it. Love is great. I strive for it too. We all do. But I also realized that love is something that we use. It's a tool and people can use it to manipulate you, people can use it genuinely.

[00:18:05] And so I think when we start to use the word love, there are so many people in this world that do not receive love the way that they should, and there are people that cannot give love the way that they should. So I just didn't wanna start using the word grief and love together, and then it just went down this little rabbit hole.

[00:18:23] 'cause I mean, I contemplated the whole idea after my divorce and after he died. I'm like, oh my God, do I love myself? Like what has happened to my life? I had to quit my job and everything. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Do I even love myself? Because I feel like I cannot do anything for myself.

[00:18:40] So I just, I didn't want love to be in that equation when I was talking about grief and how to, I don't know, pull out of it. I guess 

[00:18:51] Jill: I know those sayings 'cause I've seen them as well. Yeah. Where it's like, you know, grief is just love that has nowhere to go and like 

[00:18:58] Kristy: Yeah. And that's another one I'm like, okay, if you do have a ton of love to give like I can think about a thousand different ways that you can use that love.

[00:19:05] Right. So there is no scarcity of places. People that need love in this world. So, you know, either go volunteer, go make a memorial for your bay that died. You know, give it to yourself, whatever it is. But I feel like that alone also irritates me because there are so many places to give love that we do not do it enough.

[00:19:31] You know? So if you have an excess of love, go share it. You know? That's true. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And when you're doing it, do it in honor of that person. They can be right there with you doing it. Make it a ritual. Make it something healing. Do it in their name, do it with them, whatever it is, make that intention that you're doing it for them, and then you are actually giving them love by doing it that way.

[00:19:57] So we are actually sharing the love for them and with them. Yeah. 

[00:20:02] Jill: Yeah. I actually had a young man that I knew that died suddenly. He was like running a marathon. He had a heat stroke. He died at like 23 and he used to volunteer at the place that I work at. His parents on his death anniversary come and they volunteer to honor his name and honor the work that he did and how much he loved the place.

[00:20:23] And it's always a little heartbreaking for me 'cause I kind of get through some of the grieving with them. But it's a beautiful way for them to honor something that he really cared about. Mm-hmm. And to share some of that love Exactly. To help people and. But I know everybody does grieve differently and I understand that.

[00:20:44] And I also try to have compassion for humans in general because I do find, especially nowadays with the internet, it is very easy to get on there and say things. Mm-hmm. And then people get triggered and then all of a sudden it's like everybody like you're a terrible person and how dare you say these things?

[00:21:03] And like sometimes I just need to like, Let that go with this idea of that none of us are perfect.

[00:21:10] Kristy: Yeah. 

[00:21:12] Jill: And there's gonna be times when all of us are gonna say something wrong or do something wrong in somebody else's eyes. I try to, I don't know, coexist, I guess is maybe the word in a way with social media where I can meet people like you that I would not have met in real life.

[00:21:32] Mm-hmm. You know, I'm over here in New Jersey. Right. We would not have just bumped into each other somewhere. Exactly. 

[00:21:37] Kristy: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Jill: But also, you know, I am cautious about what I post online, partially because I don't want, I genuinely don't want to hurt people. Right. I don't, and I know that I'm not perfect, and I know that there's gonna be times when I'm gonna say and do things that are not necessarily correct.

[00:21:57] Right. I'm always learning. I'm always trying to learn and grow and get better and be better. But it can be so triggering to people, the stuff that's online. But I love your profile and I would say it's probably tied to your self-love, but maybe, um, incorrect because again, I've been following you over a few years.

[00:22:16] Yeah, and watching the way that you've kind of grown and change yourself and the way that you show up online and the things that you're talking about and the things that you're posting, and I just, I love it. But I remember right after you started changing, you made a post and you were like, well, I lost a bunch of followers there.

[00:22:33] Kristy: Yeah. I think that was like when I showed my ass. Yeah. Yeah. People again, it's like, 

[00:22:41] Jill: You can't make everybody happy, but I love how you show up. And I know we had kind of briefly talked about what it's like when we have children and how mm-hmm. The way that we show up online as well as in real life, teaches our children what they should think and believe about themselves.

[00:23:00] And it's, you know, it's tricky because I've gone through quite the evolution in the last, I don't know, probably 10 years or so when it comes to like my sexuality and my relationships and, you know, now of course, as I'm like getting further I'm 44 now, and I'm starting to go through more changes.

[00:23:23] Yeah. Yes. And just feel differently and things are just different. Mm-hmm. And I'm loving all of it, but I definitely am a little hesitant online. And of course, here I am talking about it on my podcast now, but for some reason, it feels different when I'm like, it's different talking to a person about this.

[00:23:39] Kristy: Instagram has this different feel or it can, 'cause I know a lot of people have like a really hard time with Instagram and sometimes I also do, but other times I don't. I have this like up and down relationship with Instagram or maybe, actually, it's not even Instagram, it's just with myself more really.

[00:23:55] That's kind of one of the problems with Instagram or with even our work. We touch such sensitive. Subjects and there's no right way for these emotions. There are so many different traditions, different cultures, and different religious beliefs. For me now, I feel like I am just going to do what I believe.

[00:24:19] And because that's all I can, I feel like if I am sharing myself more personably and what I believe, it's gonna come across better than me just trying to tell somebody what they wanna hear. And I think that's just the best way for me anyway, to feel comfortable online, is to just be me fully. And whoever can accept that is gonna be the people that are gonna come to me.

[00:24:46] Because if they, if they don't like what I'm saying, they're just not gonna come to me, they're gonna go to somebody else. That's fine. You know? 'cause I want the people that understand the way I'm talking or are drawn to the way I talk about grief and death and sexuality and everything. If I'm not for you, that's okay because there are about 10 other people that I am for.

[00:25:05] 'cause I don't think that I am for everybody. I mean, I know I'm not for everybody, you know? And I think that's like the first. Kind of step is to be like, oh, I'm not for everybody, so I'm just gonna say whatever I wanna say, kind of thing I've said before, and I can change my mind tomorrow on this. Because grief is a process.

[00:25:23] Dealing with death is a process. I, I don't even think we need to accept death. I just need, we need to like come to a truce. Can you even accept when death is right in front of you? 'cause for me when I talk about death, it's like, can you accept it right now? Because I know a lot of people are like, oh, when?

[00:25:38] When I am 90 and on my deathbed, yes, I'm gonna accept it. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about if you walked out the door and you could literally die. You could die at home. A freak accident. Can you accept it right now? And I don't think a lot of people think like that because they're always like, yes.

[00:25:54] And I'm like, okay, so if you had a bear running you down. Right. You know what I'm saying? It's like, no, I want you to really think that you might die because you might. So my death acceptance has kind of changed throughout the years where I'm like, no, it's not this death acceptance. It's like coming to a truce with it.

[00:26:10] Like it's going to happen. You can fear it. I think it's healthy to fear it. I think it's absolutely insane to tell people not to fear it, and people might not agree with that, but I feel like that sits better with me than saying to accept it because I think that's really hard for people to comprehend when you're really talking about can you die at this moment?

[00:26:28] So I don't know what happened. I went through this whole grief thing and I had a lot of grief in my sexual life. Just growing up promiscuous and I felt like I always had slut attached to me. Right. And at times I didn't care. But then there were really times when it really bothered me. I never really had like really long relationships.

[00:26:56] My husband was, I think he, he was the only man I lived with. The one that I've been with the longest. But besides that, there's just been random boyfriends. Nobody ever really lasted that long. And so I always had this, I felt like I always had this attachment as like the slut, right?. I never really had a serious boyfriend, and growing up I was the same way.

[00:27:23] Like I was experimenting a lot, and I think it's totally healthy and I think we get on people about it and we don't allow, it's just the whole sex, the whole thing is just like we ruined it. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, it's almost like just having sex is kinky. You know what I'm saying? Like just having sex is kinky.

[00:27:43] Like that's horrible. So I just had a lot of grief for myself and I felt a lot of shame for myself. I was in some somatic workshops with Kimberly Ann Johnson, and she did some sex work stuff, and then it all just kind of started making sense to me. Right, and all the grief. I think also that was there, I started to swim through.

[00:28:06] And also just looking at other things that happened in my family being told kind of that you're gonna be used by men, that whole thing, right? Like, oh, people are just using you. Nobody's ever really gonna like you, da da, da, da, da. So that whole self-worth value thing, then you're just pressured into getting married and the whole thing.

[00:28:27] But I really just ducked down 'cause I, I realized that a lot of my shame and my self-worth was dug into my sexuality and how I present myself and just my history with men. Hmm. 

[00:28:42] Jill: So there's so much good stuff there. Oh my gosh. I know as I'm listening and thinking, I grew up Catholic, so like, the like slut shaming in my community was so deep.

[00:28:56] Yes. And there was a time when I was being called a slut and I wasn't even doing anything, but because I was exactly a prettier girl and the boys liked me. Yep. And then I went through that phase of being like, well, if you're gonna call me a slut, like I should just do it anyway because like if I'm gonna have to deal with it, but then the shame that goes along with it, and rather than like, Enjoying experiences.

[00:29:20] There was just shame and pain and just so much tied to it. And then I went through a really long period of not liking sex at all. 

[00:29:28] Kristy: Yep. Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:30] Jill: You know, my poor husband, the first couple years we were together, it was like, I basically just did it because I had to because I knew that that's what you needed to do.

[00:29:38] And like then I was traumatizing myself all over again. And it just, the grief that came with that, you're right. Like I never. I realized how much grief I had over the different experiences, the different times in my life. Mm-hmm. And that's where, again, like in the last 10 years or so, then I really had to work through a lot of that and I had to embrace a lot of it.

[00:30:01] Jill: And I had to like claim back a lot of my own power, especially when it came. Especially after sexual assault, you like to lose your power there. Yes. Even more. I mean just like the whole thing. Yeah. And as you said about the conversations that we're taught as children, we're not given, and this is where sex and death to me go so hand in hand because we don't have honest, healthy conversations.

[00:30:29] Mm-hmm. With children about sex or death. Oh, totally. Mm-hmm. And then you get that like, men are gonna use you, men are gonna use you, and then what happens? Men use us. Well, because you basically trained that into all of us. Exactly. And then you blame the woman and you call us the sluts. 

[00:30:45] Kristy: Right. Yeah. It makes sense, embrace a lot of it.

[00:30:46] Jill: So like, can we please just start talking about these things with our children? Yep. In a healthier way, even though Yes. It makes us uncomfortable.  

[00:30:55] Kristy: Oh yeah. Uncomfortable. Yeah. 

[00:30:56] Jill: I will admit it. My children nine and 12 years old, like starting to go through puberty, like Starting to: have some of these conversations about porn and masturbation and like all these other things that I'm like inside like, okay, you could do this. 

[00:31:11] Jill: You could do this over time. It has gotten easier to have that conversation. But it's just like the same thing with practicing, talking about death.

[00:31:19] Kristy: Right? It's not, well, I, at first, yes, yes. Like I got thrown into that, you know what I'm saying? Like I literally got thrown into that where it was like I had to tell my kids, That their dad was dying, right? So that kind of gave me permission to talk to them about anything, right? Because if I can sit them down and tell them the worst possible thing that they can hear in their life, then I can talk to them about sex.

[00:31:45] So it's like, for me now, I'm like, I'm like, yes, so we're gonna talk about this and yeah, I'm, I'm just like, everything's on the table now, you know? I mean, there's, or off the table or what's, whatever that phrase is. Yeah. Same difference. It's fine. Yeah. It's like I'm, we can talk about anything now because we've gone through this horrible experience where it's like, oh, sex is just another weird subject that, yeah, it's a little uncomfortable.

[00:32:11] We've been through worse, uncomfortable. I've had longer conversations with my daughter than my son right now because my daughter's 15. But you know, even the porn thing I posted recently where it was like I talked to my kids about porn and I did talk to my 12-year-old about this because they're, he's on the internet all the time and a lot sneakier than I probably know or like to admit.

[00:32:30] I told him, I said, listen, when you're watching porn, it's like watching Harry Potter. It's not real life, right? It's like, yeah, it's not real life. So don't watch porn and think that that's is like what your sex life is gonna be like, or what sex is going to be like at all, you know? And then I talked to my daughter and I said, listen, it's gonna hurt the first few times.

[00:32:50] It's gonna hurt. You're not gonna orgasm. I think also sex education in schools is horrible. You know, some of the things that I've heard come out of these teenager’s mouths and I'm just like it's just horrible. The only one who really needs to orgasm to have a baby is the man, right? So it's like the lady's orgasm is barely even talked about because it's not necessary to have a child.

[00:33:15] So I think we've completely not talked about it. I told my daughter, I was just like, I need you to explore your body before somebody else does. I want you to know what feels good to you. You don't need somebody else to find that out for you. You need to find it out for yourself first. Now, I don't want you to enter into something not knowing your body enough.

[00:33:36] Jill: You know, all parts of my body right now are like, oh God, I don't think I could do that. I don't think I could say that to my daughter or my son.

[00:33:41] Kristy: Right? Yeah, yeah, totally. I'm trying to give her something that I never got. Yes. I'm trying to give her, the freedom to know, just know her body, to feel pleasure with it, to not feel shameful mm-hmm.

[00:33:58] About feeling pleasure, you know, all of that. I just, I don't want her to have to deal with, This whole sex thing the way that I had to, 'cause it really put a huge, it really did just like knock my self-worth down for a really long time. Once I got into it, kind of exploring everything, it's helped me a ton in the last I.

[00:34:20] I would say in the last year or maybe a little bit longer? No, probably the last year is where I've really come to this like a better acceptance, I wouldn't even say fully accepted everything, but pretty damn close to talking more about my sexuality and just being sexual and also just talking about it in the concept with death and grief.

[00:34:43] 'cause I think that kind of throws people off a little bit. I felt like it was a huge part of my experience. I didn't know how to like enter it into the conversation enough so it made sense. But I feel like it does make sense because I feel like there are so many women who have experienced this and kind of feel like dead inside.

[00:35:05] I know that I also went through a period where, um, I stopped dating and I was like, I'm just not gonna have sex anymore. And I also, in the marriage, there was a period of time where we didn't have sex. I just think there's a lot of that happening and I think we don't talk about it enough 'cause we do feel that shame for it and there's a lot of grief in there.

[00:35:24] So it's, it is part of, I guess, the things that I do wanna talk about. I'm talking about it more and more just because I feel it's so important. And that's like my biggest thing was I feel like after my ex-husband died, I had like this, it's like I was given this second chance at life. Right. Because I wasn't very happy before.

[00:35:43] I wasn't really leading the life that I really wish I had been leading. Now that I see that and I have, I felt like it was like you have this second chance. You see what can happen, right? Like death is here. I could be here at any moment for you. So either you're gonna stay small and do this little thing that you've been doing and not being happy and just going with the flow, or you're gonna go find yourself and see what really makes you happy.

[00:36:09] And it was just like, I'm just gonna do my best. See what happens out here. It's interesting though because it hasn't been easy to do that, to be like, oh, I'm gonna go find myself because I'm also grieving so much of myself and so much of him, and just like a whole life that just like disappeared and then all of a sudden I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing anymore, so it's been really hard.

[00:36:35] It's taken a long time right now. I don't know, maybe it's just spring, but like I feel like after the pandemic too and everything, I feel like this spring is just like, everybody's just like, whew. Right? Like totally going for things and I feel that energy in my life as well. So it's been really nice to feel that finally again, where something's going somewhere.

[00:36:57] Mm-hmm. But, grief can slow you down. Definitely. That's where I like to bring in that devotion to self again, because we can mess up and it can go really slow, but that doesn't mean that it's going bad or anything. So we have to give ourselves a little grace. Totally. 

[00:37:15] Jill: Well, we're almost at time. Oh my gosh.

[00:37:18] I know. It does fly by. So I will put the show notes, we'll have links to all your social media, all that stuff. Mm-hmm. Uh, but why don't you just tell us the best way for people to find you.

[00:37:30] Kristy: Totally. The best way to find me is just on Instagram at Death Priestess. I don't have a website or anything right now.

[00:37:37] I'm just working off there, so I answer DM’S there and everything. So that's kind of, I use it kind of as like, my little platform, my website, and everything right now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:37:50] Jill: No, that totally works. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes so people 

[00:37:53] Kristy: can find you. Perfect. 

[00:37:55] Jill: But yeah, thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation. Yeah, it was fun. I definitely, definitely could talk for a lot longer.

[00:38:01] Kristy: I know like deep dive into each like little thing that we had like two seconds of, you know. I know. Yeah, I know. That's how it goes. 

[00:38:08] Jill: But yeah, an hour. 45 minutes flies by really fast. So it's just like a little touch of the things that you talk about and now people can go find you and dive in even deeper.

[00:38:19] Yay. But thank you. I really appreciated you coming on. It was awesome actually getting to talk to you for once, not just on the social media.

[00:38:26] Kristy: So yeah. Yeah, it was great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. 

[00:38:32] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Clearly. In our next episode, I have the pleasure of talking with Reverend Ogen Holder.

[00:38:39] Reverend Ogen Holder is an ordained Unity minister and an award-winning author, and he holds certifications in spiritual coaching, grief and bereavement counseling, and the Enneagram. He also co-hosts two podcasts. Reverend Ogan has experienced the challenges of grieving multiple losses over the last eight years.

[00:38:57] Starting with the passing of his wife due to cancer. I came across Reverend Gin's article titled Grief as a Spiritual Practice, which deeply resonated with me. His wisdom and perspective on the subject compelled me to reach out and invite him to be a guest on the podcast. Reverend GaN believes in embracing grief as a natural process, allowing us to feel and express every emotion as it arises.

[00:39:20] He sees these emotions as leading us to areas within us that need the most care in healing. Our conversation also touches on the differences in grieving, depending on your race, your ethnicity, your class, and your ability. I invite you to join us next week for this discussion. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might.

[00:39:39] Find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five-star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

[00:39:57] Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free, whether your donation is large or small, every amount. Is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one-time contribution.

[00:40:17] Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death. Clearly.