A Coversation with Death Doula Emily Cross

In this episode, my guest is Emily Cross.

Emily Cross is a multi-talented individual residing in Dorset, England, who has dedicated her career to serving the dying.

In 2017, Emily established her own practice, to provide support to both the dying and their families.
 

Recently she expanded her doula work to include both in-person and online services at the Steady Waves Center for Contemplation in Abbotsbury, Dorset, a community hub that offers end-of-life resources, education, meditation sessions, and open conversations.

Our conversation in this episode covers Emily’s career path and about the Steady Waves Living Funeral Ceremonies, a transformative and immersive experience designed to provoke deep reflection on mortality and life's priorities.

During this 2 to 3-hour-long ceremony, individuals confront their own mortality through various activities. This includes engaging in a writing exercise, experiencing their own memorial, and participating in a death visualization. 

The Living Funeral offers a cathartic journey, helping participants develop a profound sense of mindfulness, acceptance, and appreciation for the fleeting beauty of life. By delving into death meditation, the ceremonies emphasize the significance of living fully in the present moment.

You can reach Emily Cross on Instagram @steady_waves_center 

Or through her website www.steadywavescenter.com

Chapters

• 1:47 About Emily
• 5:49 How Emily got into death doula work
• 10:50 Emily and Jill talk about what they believe happens after we die
• 17:04 How end-of-life work has changed Emily
• 20:21 About Steady Waves Living Funeral Ceremonies
• 30:31 About Steady Waves Center for Contemplation in England
• 37:43 Next weeks guest

Transcript

00:00:00] Emily: Working through like fears surrounding death and dying. You learn to train yourself to listen to yourself a little more. It's like when you can witness what you're doing and your life on a bigger picture. I think that got a lot more clear to me. It built up over time to create this much more peace, peaceful existence for me.

[00:00:17] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly. I'm your host Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach. In my conversations with guests, I wanna normalize hearing people talk about death, dying grief, and how it's part of the journey of life. My goal is to inspire you to explore beyond the limits of what you currently believe to be true.

[00:00:38] In this episode, my guest is Emily Cross. Emily Cross is a death doula who is dedicated her career to serving the dying and educating the public, both in person and virtually. She's the creator of Steady Waves Living Funeral Ceremonies. And now has a physical location in England called the Steady Wave Center for Contemplation.

[00:00:57] We talk about all of this and more in today's episode. Thank you for joining us for this conversation today. I have a special guest, Emily Cross. I know Emily through my mentor Jill Schock. That's how we originally met a couple of years ago. We had a conversation and I haven't really talked to you since then, so I'm excited to talk to you, find out more about what you've been up to recently because it's been fun watching you on your social media. Lots of big changes in the last few years, so welcome. Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:01:27] Emily: Thank you. Thank you for having me. And yeah, I feel the same. I'm excited to catch up. 

[00:01:33] Jill: Awesome. So let's start off with just kind of like the basic questions of where are you from originally, if you wanna share how old you are, religious background, just kind of anything that sets us up for how you got to where you're at today.

[00:01:47] Emily: Great. I come from Ohio, actually. I was born there, but then I grew up in Florida, so. My formative years, I guess, were spent in the wild and wonderful state of Florida, and then I went to college in Chicago and I moved to England from Texas. So kind of been all over the place. I am 34 years old, years young, and I didn't really grow up with any sort of religious training or information. I briefly, like for one year, went to a Catholic elementary school and I remember my dad, this was in first grade, him dropping me off at school and saying, you know, “Emily believe what they say about math and science, but if they talk about any big man in the sky called God. You might not wanna believe that.”

[00:02:40] So I guess I was brought up in a household that we celebrated like Christmas and did Easter baskets and stuff, but I never really, I never really was told why that was happening. It wasn't because of a religion. It was just basically because they were big holidays, everyone else. Celebrated. 

[00:03:00] Jill: Did you have any experiences with death when you were younger where your parents had a conversation with you maybe about what death is or where people go after they die? Anything like that? 

[00:03:11] Emily: Not that I remember, but I do remember being in preschool and learning for the first time. Well, trying to digest for the first time what death was because someone, one of my peers told me that one day my mom's gonna die, and I, and I said, What does that mean? And they explained that she will go away and not ever come back.

[00:03:32] And I think that was the first time that I ever internalized what death meant in any real way. But I can't remember any conversation with my parents, and I can't remember ever going to any funeral or being told where people go or anything like that. 

[00:03:50] Jill: Did it frighten you when your friend said that your mother would die one day?

[00:03:54] Emily: Yeah, I think I cried because I was only, you know, maybe four or five or something like that. And of course, that's like the scariest thing ever when you're four or five.

[00:04:01] Jill: My daughter is nine, and she still sometimes will say, but I don't want you to die before me. I wanna die before you. I'm like, no. 

[00:04:09] Emily: That's sweet though.

[00:04:10] Jill: It is sweet. It really is. But also I'm like, but that's not how it's supposed to be. Yeah. Or there's no supposed to when it comes to life and death, but it just doesn't feel right. The thought of, you know, a child dying before their parent. Yeah. So what was the first death that you remember when you were, you know, an adult I guess at that point? 

[00:04:30] Emily: The first death that I remember would have been probably my grandmother. I think she died when I was like 11 or 12, maybe. I wasn't particularly close to any of my extended family, so I didn't, I didn't go to the funeral. I didn't see her, you know, before she died or anything like that.

[00:04:51] Jill: Yeah, that seems pretty common in the United States, that children are very sheltered from death. And I think it's unfortunate because then when we have to face it when we're older, we're really not prepared because it's something that we should have been prepared for when we were younger, but we weren't.

[00:05:08] And, and I know like, now, do you consider yourself a death doula? Is that what your kind of title would be?

[00:05:14] Emily: Yeah. I consider myself a doula. I, I'm trained as a doula through multiple training programs. Several years ago at this point, but I have doula many times. And I guess that's what I would consider myself, but I also plan funerals now, I call myself a funeral planner as well.

[00:05:37] Jill: And how did you originally, I know I've heard the story a little bit on other podcasts and things that you've done, and I know sometimes it gets exhausting telling the same story over and over, but just tell us a little bit about how you got into this work. 

[00:05:49] Emily: Sure. Yeah. So my background is actually art and music.

[00:05:54] So I went to college for a fine art degree. And I'm smiling just because it's such, such a funny degree to get, and a lot of people say it's useless. I don't look at it that way. But anyway, I'm coming from an art and music background and I think I was in the middle of recording an album and I was driving home from this studio one day and I had been thinking about it for a while.

[00:06:18] Cause at that point I was only like, I was only maybe 25 or something and I was thinking more broadly about my life and what I'm gonna do for, cuz I was, I've always been in the service in the industry and working with children as a nanny and things like that. While doing music, I was just thinking about what else I would like to do with my life, like alongside music and art to supplement what I feel really passionate about.

[00:06:43] And it had kind of been on my mind because death is really a big, mysterious topic to me. It always has been. It's something that I write music about and make art about in various ways. And I was driving home from the studio and a radio program was on, on N P R. And it was all about death, doulas, and I've never wanted to be in the medical field whatsoever.

[00:07:08] I'm actually kind of squeamish, like when it comes to needles and stuff and blood. But this program is about how doulas are like a non-medical presence at the end of life. And immediately, like literally that, that moment I was like, yes, that is what I'm doing. That is my life. That's what I'm doing. And that same day I went home and I looked up the closest person to me who was doing training because I felt like it was important to train with someone that I could actually meet and be with in person.

[00:07:38] And yeah, that I signed up the same day, and that, that's basically my story. Yeah. Started volunteering for hospice and being with people and meeting everyone in that space, and that was the start of my journey. 

[00:07:51] Jill: Yeah, that's kind of similar to mine where I heard about it on a podcast and as soon as I heard it I was like, oh yeah, that's it.

[00:07:58] That's the thing, because I'm kind of the same, where I watched what hospice did for my grandmother when she was dying. It was amazing. It was beautiful. I'm so glad that hospice nurses exist, but I do not want to do what they do. Exactly. It's just not my thing. But I like the idea of supporting people through the emotional and spiritual support that they need at the end of life.

[00:08:21] And it's interesting trying to really stay, I guess like secular non-denominational, like really just open to whatever anybody believes. And how do you work with that? Like how do you hold the space for people no matter what their spiritual beliefs are? Even if it is different than what you believe. 

[00:08:42] Emily: I love, I love all of that.

[00:08:44] I love learning about what people believe, and I think it actually helps me that I wasn't brought up with any religious beliefs because I just feel entirely open to whatever anyone else believes. Like to me, that's just so valid, what people believe and their background or whatever. So to me, it's not really that difficult.

[00:09:04] Obviously it would be challenging to me if someone had beliefs that I don't necessarily agree with regarding like what I view as injustices, which unfortunately are maybe tied to some religious beliefs. But I think that as a doula, my role is to me, someone where they're at. My job is to assist them in having the most peaceful experience possible at the end of life.

[00:09:28] Because I think every person, regardless of their belief, deserves that. 

[00:09:34] Jill: Yeah, I totally agree. I was raised Catholic, but it's not anything that I think I ever truly believed, even when I was younger, but it's still part of me, you know, it's ingrained in who I am and now my spiritual beliefs are, I don't know, it's kind of all over the spectrum where.

[00:09:53] I love having conversations with people. I love hearing about what they believe and I just love talking to people about it, I feel like these are the important things that we should talk about, and they're the things that we also shy away from. You know, when I was a kid, I was told you don't talk about politics and religion and money.

[00:10:08] Mm-hmm. Or, and death wasn't even part of it. But that's kind of, you know, one of the things we don't talk about, and I feel like those are the most interesting things to talk about. If you can stay open-minded and not take it personally if somebody disagrees with you. Mm-hmm. And when it comes to the end of life, especially people's religious beliefs do tend to influence so much of what they believe should happen to them at the end of life.

[00:10:35] Mm-hmm. As well as what happens to their soul or their spirit afterward. And just outta curiosity, like do you have any beliefs about what you think happens when somebody dies? Like where the soul goes, or if a soul even exists? Like what do you think? 

[00:10:50] Emily: That's a really interesting question. I would say I don't have any concrete beliefs, but because I don't have any concrete beliefs, I feel like anything is a possibility, so I'm definitely not closed off to the soul surviving or consciousness surviving bodily death.

[00:11:09] I think there's some really super interesting research that has gone on about that, and I love reading about it. Near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences and all of that. That's always fascinated me. If I were to say something, I have a sneaking suspicion that there is something else that we don't understand that happens with consciousness or energy, or whatever you wanna call it, with the soul.

[00:11:31] And that's coming from my own experiences being with people at the end of life and those kinds of more unexplained phenomena that happen in that kind of, Sacred, really potent time between living and dying. Someone I know, I can't remember who said it, but I've used it a lot, refers to it as one foot and one foot out, and you can really feel that atmosphere.

[00:11:55] And also just like being with someone who has died, there's a definite shift in the atmosphere when someone goes like when they're, when they're dead, as opposed to if they're comatose. And alive. So all those things make me think. And also I've had like my own, for lack of a better word, paranormal experiences in life.

[00:12:17] It's just obvious we don't understand everything that happens, right? Because how can we assume that we understand everything about life and consciousness in the universe? So, Whether or not that's mystical or explainable, I don't really think it matters.

[00:12:35] Jill: That is how I think. Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:12:37] And you're right that it's not necessarily explainable now, but that doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Yeah. That doesn't mean that eventually, we won't have ways to measure in some scientific way. What happens to the energy or the consciousness after it's ejected from this physical body? Mm-hmm.

[00:12:56] And I know I've read stories where people have talked about seeing the energy come out through. What would essentially be your crown chakra out the top of your head when you have been sitting with somebody that's dying? Again? I don't know if I believe it. I have not personally seen it. Mm-hmm. But that doesn't mean that just because I haven't personally seen it, I don't believe that it's possible.

[00:13:19] I don't know, maybe it is. And I like to think about all the different things because it's interesting to me that we don't really know, and I feel like it's a shame when people are so set in their beliefs that they're not open to other possibilities, to at least thinking about other possibilities. Yeah.

[00:13:39] Because it's fun to think about the different possibilities and talk to other people about it, and I don't know what I believe either. I don't think we'll ever know until we're actually dead ourselves. Yeah, and maybe we won't know. My husband, he actually was raised in Florida as well and did not have any religion growing up.

[00:13:58] He is very atheist and in his mind when we die, it's like, lights out. That's it. You know, we're probably not even gonna know it. I don't know. Maybe that is possible. Maybe that is what happens. Yeah, and I don't really know if I care either way. Like I can't control it. 

[00:14:17] Emily: I mean, I think it's a nice idea to think that we will stay conscious and be able to watch our loved ones down on earth and see what happens.

[00:14:27] But again, I don't know. I sort of think that if we do survive bodily death, maybe none of the earthly goings-on will really matter to us very much, but. Like you said, who knows what happens. And to me that mystery is comforting. I know to a lot of people, it's scary and they don't like that. And that's part of their death anxiety is that they don't know what happens.

[00:14:50] And that's, I guess why a lot of people do find religion comforting, right? Because it's an answer to this mysterious question that ultimately cannot be answered. But to me, thankfully, I find comfort in it. The great mystery and just all its possibilities, even if it's nothing. 

[00:15:08] Jill: Yeah. And it might be nothing.

[00:15:10] And Yep. I, I love nothing. Yeah. And part of me does kind of think it'd be nice if I could hang out with my children, essentially for the rest of their life. I mean, you gotta figure when I'm dead, that's all eternity. Or maybe it's not. I don't know. Maybe I get reincarnated. I don't know. But it potentially is all eternity, so why not hang out for another 50 years and watch my children for the rest of their existence and maybe their children?

[00:15:35] Right. I don't know. Like why not? If I could, I would probably choose to do that just mm-hmm. Because why not? Yeah, but I don't know. And I've talked to people that are mediums and they say that they can see, and they can hear our, I guess, our ancestors around us. So, I don't know. It's all, it's all fascinating though, and I love it.

[00:15:58] I, me too, when I became a death doula. I didn't think I had any fears. I was always fascinated by death since I was a child, but there were definitely some fears inside of me that I kind of didn't realize were there. Mm. And then as I started really reading about death and talking to people about it more, I started finding those little spots and then I started working through them and doing my process of allowing myself to.

[00:16:24] Acknowledge that the fear was there and give it its space and process it, and it ended up being something that really transformed the way that I exist in the world now. I have a different appreciation and a sense of gratitude that I didn't used to have, and so I feel like when we learn about death, it's going to change us.

[00:16:48] Because I mean, it's something that most of us have really avoided our whole life. So did you have any type of experiences where your journey of learning about death and dying or even being with somebody for the first time when they died, that like really kind of transformed you on a deeper level? 

[00:17:04] Emily: Yes, definitely.

[00:17:06] My answer's probably gonna sound so basic and like, duh. But. Spending time with people who are very ill and dying and reading so much about death and dying and you know, leading people through death meditations as well, have really affected me because I get to hear from these people who are doing this kind of well, it's like a simulation of dying, right?

[00:17:30] And they're writing their last words, so I get to hear their last words as well. And all of this has helped me tremendously to basically just not be as afraid to do what the heck I want with my life, because why not? There are scary things like losing all my money and not having resources or pushing myself too hard and, and becoming sick or something like that.

[00:17:53] But all in all, I feel a lot less afraid of failing, and I, I don't care as much what people say. About what I'm doing because I know that that's just like misplaced stuff that they have going on, if they're bothered about what I'm doing. So I guess it's just made me feel a lot more peaceful. And also I would say I just trust my intuition a lot more now because working through fears surrounding death and dying.

[00:18:22] You learn to train yourself to listen to yourself a little more, and I think that actually does need to be trained well, for me at least, that needed to kind of be teased out of me, like hearing my inner voice and what I was trying to say or what do they call it? Like witness, witness watching. I don't know what if that has a term, but it's like when you can witness what you're doing and your life on a bigger picture, I think that got a lot more clearer to me.

[00:18:48] So, yeah, maybe it's subtle, but it built up over time to create this much more peaceful existence for me. 

[00:18:56] Jill: I  like that wording, peaceful existence. Because I would say that's probably pretty accurate to how I would describe it, and it doesn't mean that every day I'm just going through the world like, oh, this is wonderful.

[00:19:08] I mean, there are still days when I feel stressed and anxious. Yeah. That's part of being human. 

[00:19:13] Emily: Yeah. That's not for me either. 

[00:19:16] Jill: Yeah, exactly. Like we can't escape that fully, but there are times when I can just stay much calmer and less upset about things. Because I think part of me just knows that this existence is short and in the long run, a lot of the stuff that used to stress me out doesn't really matter.

[00:19:37] It really doesn't. And so, I don't know. I kind of love that. I feel like that was a gift that I was able to get from going through this training and really kind of experiencing these things. And you did briefly mention your guided death experiences. I don't know what you necessarily exactly call it.

[00:19:59] I don't remember. I apologize. But definitely tell us more about that cuz I've done something a little similar. I haven't done your exact thing. I kind of do mine with like, I. Shamanic journeying a little bit and like some movement involved because I find movements helpful. But I know yours is really special and it's really beautiful, so definitely tell us about that.

[00:20:21] Emily: Thanks for asking about it. So I call it a living funeral ceremony. I started this whole thing in 2017 with Living Funeral Ceremonies, and since I started them, I've learned that some people call what I call celebrations of life, living funerals, and that is when a person. They have a terminal diagnosis and they want to kind of have a party, but they wanna be present, so like sort of in lieu of a funeral, but they're at their own funeral.

[00:20:49] That's not what my living funeral is. Mine. My experience I'll call it is based on the South Korean mock funerals that I saw a documentary about actually. I saw this documentary, it was like a short maybe news piece, I think new, the New York Times did a little video thing about these ceremonies and I was like kind of half listening.

[00:21:12] I was doing some reading at the same time and I just clicked on this thing and I look over and the video that's playing was like people next to coffins, like robes with their memorial picture in front. And they were like getting in the coffins and having the coffins shot and. Doing this death simulation thing and I was like, whoa, whoa.

[00:21:31] What is this? This is incredible. What the heck? I wanna, I wanna go. I learned that there was this healing center called the Fine Healing Center, and I'm pretty sure that it started to curb suicide rates in South Korea. And what they do is corporations send their workforces there to learn about the impact of suicide.

[00:21:54] And essentially they're trying to get you to look at your mortality and realize that life is worth living and you have. People that love you and I can't really understand all of what's going on because they're speaking Korean and I'm not sure about the translations. I saw this and I really wanted to go, but the only one I could find was that one happening in South Korea because I wanted to do the whole thing.

[00:22:15] I wanted to get in the coffin when I wanted to have the whole experience, even though I have not experienced feeling suicidal before, but this was in my kind of osmosis. Part of the death world of like, I just wanted to grab everything and learn everything that I could from everywhere. So I wanted to experience everything anyway.

[00:22:36] I couldn't find anything like that. So I thought, well, I should probably just create my own and start it here in Austin where I was at the time. And so I researched as much as I could through this. Healing Center. I contacted them. I tried to let them know that I was doing it so that they didn't feel like I was stealing their idea or anything like that.

[00:22:58] But I did adapt it a lot for kind of like a Western audience. So instead of coffins, I used shrouds and I made up my own kind of conglomeration of a script pulling from Buddhist teachings and Muslim teachings and all this different history and meditations and the yogic texts and things. And I had my first group in 2017.

[00:23:21] I'd never done anything like that before and the response was insane. Like people came up to me and they said, you know, this entirely changed my life. And I've gotten like since then, I've gotten, every time it seems like I get emails being like, oh yeah, my life changed in this way and this way, and this isn't like groundbreaking stuff I'm doing at all.

[00:23:44] Like I'm only creating a space. For people to directly confront their mortality for a couple of hours, our society's just not set up that way to do that Right. In a very focused amount of time, um, with the intention of doing that. And so it's got nothing to do with me and everything to do with how these people have committed to going that far inward and really internalizing the fact that we do die and we have this.

[00:24:09] Short period of time to live. And yeah, I have a coffin back there that I use now for one-on-one sessions, but when I do group ones, they're shrouded and it's a deaf meditation, but it's got it's padded out by like a writing exercise and it's sharing exercise and. I don't know what else to say about it.

[00:24:29] Jill: That was great. I think it is transformational for people to really, and I hate to say like imagine you're dead or imagine you're dying, but like that is kind of what it is to actually put yourself in that place and then let your own voice. Come through and really tell you what's important in your life. Yes. And what's not important in your life.

[00:24:50] Like all of that starts to come through. Yeah. And then it's up to you to listen. That's the extra part of it. You know, you can hear it, but you need to also listen. 

[00:25:00] Emily: Yeah. But the beauty of doing an exercise like that is when people leave, they have their memorial picture of the day. So they have their birthday and the death day of that day that they did the exercise.

[00:25:10] And they also take their writing with them. And I encourage people to keep those and return to it every now and then. And they can use it as kind of like a touchstone to say, oh yeah. This is what I wrote when I thought that that was the last piece of paper I will ever have to write on. That's so powerful.

[00:25:26] That's like a laser pointer showing you like, oh, I need to call this person. I need to take care of this. I need to, I need to get this right in my soul in order to feel good about when I die. And beyond that, it has had a really, huge effect of like for me as a doula, by doing this exercise so many times, of course, I can't fully relate to someone who's dying, right?

[00:25:48] But I can more readily relate to my clients. By stripping away all of these layers of life that when you're dying, they just naturally strip away. Like we lose our abilities where we have to let go of our belongings, we have to let go of our job. And of course, I'm being general, but I'm talking about if someone has a, usually like a long-term illness and they become bedbound. And that's kind of like the normal trajectory of that way of dying. But, you know, I've had doulas come, death, doulas come to these experiences and they, they come up to me and I've gotten this feedback multiple times. Some of them can't even complete the exercise in earnest because they get so triggered by thinking about their own mortality, and they say to me, Emily, I didn't know that I was so resistant, and this makes me really feel more deeply what it must be like to be my clients and to be with them.

[00:26:50] And I think that's pretty cool as well. 

[00:26:53] Jill: That's one of the things that I've noticed sometimes when I have been sitting with people that are dying, that in some ways, I don't necessarily feel guilt that I am able to walk out of the room, but it definitely, there's an awareness that no matter how many times I do this and how much I imagine what it will be like.

[00:27:17] I can't really know what they're going through. I can't know what they're feeling emotionally, physically, you know, depending, there are people that I've talked to because they're still conscious and they're still talking, and then there are the people that are unconscious and you're just like sitting and holding that space and we can't know for sure.

[00:27:36] But anything that we can do, especially if we're gonna be in this space and work with people that are dying. Anything that we can do that'll kind of help us understand even a little bit, will really only help us do the job better. Yeah. And be more compassionate. And I think it's beautiful. I love that you created that and I hope to one day do it the way that you do it, it's in the plans, but you know, there's so much that I want to do and there's so much that we can do.

[00:28:06] But then there's also the fact that there's still a lot of fear where I'm at in New Jersey. There is a lot of fear still about death and dying. It's not something that I'm finding people are really, you know, flocking to me to do these experiences. Cuz for the most part, I. When I say what I do, they flinch.

[00:28:25] You know, there's, there's not this like, oh, that's really interesting. It's more like, oh wait, okay, yeah. Well, I don't need to worry about that yet. And I'm like, well, but you, you kind of do like, we should all be thinking about this. 

[00:28:36] Emily: On my doors out here, it says, “All welcome, meditation, workshops and retreats, end-of-life resources and conversation.”

[00:28:44] And you know, people like read signs while they walk by of businesses, so, I always hear people going through, oh, my meditation. Oh, workshops and retreats. End of life, resource end. Oh, I hear that all the time. And then there's. Always like a joke. Like, oh gosh, I don't, I don't need to. I don't, let's not go in there, or something like that.

[00:29:06] It's just really funny. But yeah, it totally shows you where the general public is at in regards to just talking about death and dying or just seeing the words end of life. 

[00:29:19] Jill: That's a lot of the work that death doulas are doing right now is just. Getting people to be more comfortable having these conversations.

[00:29:28] And I think that with time, you know, I guess like you're even, you started before I did. I mean, you said what, 2016? 2017? Yeah, so that was three years before I started, and now it's been three years since I started and I'm like, Slowly watching things change. Yeah. And more and more people, though I get contacted all the time, I'm sure you do as well, of like, oh, you know, I'm thinking of becoming a death doula.

[00:29:56] Can you talk to me? Can you tell me anything about it? And I think it's great because we are going to need more people that do this work. Yeah. But right now, we're definitely in that early stage of something where a lot of the work that we're doing is just educating people. And getting people comfortable hearing and talking, and that's important work too.

[00:30:20] I mean, it's all important, but what do you actually do at your center? So like you do the retreats, you do workshops, like what type of retreats, what type of workshops, what kind of stuff do you offer? 

[00:30:31] Emily: Okay, so on the day-to-day, so different throughout the week, what I'll actually be doing. But I knew when I opened this brick-and-mortar space, I wanted it to be an end-of-life resources hub for people, anyone interested in coming and seeing what's available in the community.

[00:30:48] So I really have a focus on building in my local community. So I want people to know this place to come. It's not a funeral home. It's not anything that's gonna feel uncomfortable or stuffy or weird. It's just like, I'm here. I'll talk to you openly about it, but I also knew that I needed to offer other things, maybe more gentle entries into that whole world.

[00:31:13] I have death stuff all over the place. Like, like I said, there's a coffin literally right there. And I also have displays. So I have these, what's called casting ashes, or like, there aren't real ashes in the display, but there's like little sculptures that a local person sculpts. Ashes into for like keepsakes and there's pamphlets about hospice and all this stuff, and a ton of books about end of life and doula and dying and stuff.

[00:31:38] But I knew I had to offer something else. So I offer mindfulness meditation. I offer mind tea service cuz I love tea. I love a specific style of having tea, which is called Gong Fu Tea Service. And it's very casual, but it's like a mindful kind of sensory experience. And then I offer living funeral ceremonies.

[00:32:00] If someone wants to do that with the coffin one-on-one, we can do a two-hour living funeral ceremony. I will begin offering group-living funerals soon as well. But yeah, in general, I just use it as my office too. Look, if clients want to come in and speak to me in person, I meet them here, and then I'm just open.

[00:32:19] With my door open in case anyone wants to walk in and lay in the coffin or anything like that. I was talking to Jill, actually, Jill Schock earlier this week, and she was talking to me about the center and I said, I think it's more of like a radical, almost like performance art being here. It's just like a statement, I guess, because, you know, I didn't open this place to become a millionaire.

[00:32:42] You know what I mean? Like I knew it wasn't gonna be. Popular. I knew that people weren't gonna be lining up down the street because I am in a very small village in England, and even if I was in London, I don't know that I would be super busy. But by just being here, it's kind of making a statement that.

[00:33:01] This kind of thing is needed. And if I'm able to do that, I think that's pretty cool. So that's, that's in a nutshell what I offer here. Meditation, and it's a little bit sneaky because it's just meditation. I do like drone meditation and all different kinds of meditation. But yeah, they're surrounded by death stuff.

[00:33:20] So I think it kind of infiltrates a bit, even if they're not meaning for it too. 

[00:33:26] Jill: Well, yeah, that's that memento mori, right? Having those visuals of reminders that we are all gonna die, it will get you thinking about death even a little bit, even if you don't realize it. So yeah, it is a little sneaky and your space is beautiful.

[00:33:42] I love seeing pictures and videos of it on social media. I. Would love to visit one day. Well, it's on the bucket list. 

[00:33:50] Emily: Hopefully I'll see here by the time, by the time you get to this bucket, but yeah. 

[00:33:55] Jill: Right. I know. Well, my kids wanna travel, so hopefully we could do that sooner than later. Do you still offer your ceremonies virtually?

[00:34:02] Emily: Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. And I train people as well. Oh, I forgot to say about the retreat that I'm doing. Sorry. I'm really excited. I've never done a retreat before, but we're doing a shroud. Space weaving workshop mixed with end-of-life education and, uh, meditation in September. So it's probably, you know, for a lot of people, a little too far out there, but I'm really excited about that.

[00:34:30] So I guess I'll just put my website and if anyone wants to check that out, they can. 

[00:34:35] Jill: I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to your website and your Instagram, whatever you want me to put links to. I will for sure. Put them in there so people can check you out. And I really appreciate you coming on talking to me today.

[00:34:47] I love what you're doing. I really have enjoyed watching your journey and I'm excited to see where it will all go for you, because I'm sure in another couple of years when I talk to you again, it'll probably be different as well, but that's okay. 

[00:35:02] Emily: It'll definitely be different. And likewise, I love watching what you're doing.

[00:35:06] I love that we can all be in this space together and support each other and all do different things as well. And I wanted to say regarding education, I do think that. Well, I kind of view my primary job right at this moment is education, and it has been for several years because I think educating the general public is gonna, is gonna just further our position in the world as like a profession that people can hire, right?

[00:35:31] It needs visibility like that. So if anyone's watching, who's a doula? Listening at, you know, go talk to anyone you can talk to. Don't have imposter syndrome. I have it too, but just go out there and talk about it and raise the awareness and hopefully, we can get it to a level where it's just as common as being a birth doula, you know?

[00:35:52] Jill: And I think we are gonna get there. I believe that, but it just, you know, takes time. Everything, everything good takes time. And really the imposter syndrome for sure. You know, I came from food service, that's where I've spent my entire career up until the last few years. And the imposter syndrome definitely.

[00:36:11] Is real, but also again, we're all gonna die. Yep. So like when you're on your deathbed, are you gonna be laying there thinking, man, I really wish I wouldn't have said that one thing to that person because man, they thought I was weird and I didn't know what I was talking about. Or are you gonna be laying there thinking, man, I wasted years not talking about something because I was afraid of what people would say.

[00:36:33] What one's more likely, the wasting the years. So just do it. It's fine. You know what, if people don't like it, it'll be okay. 

[00:36:40] Emily: Just, you know, it'll be okay and people don't have to, people don't have to listen to you either. So that's kind of where I'm at with it. Like I've softened over the years with my approach of like yelling in everyone's face about death and dying.

[00:36:53] I think that's not necessarily the right approach either. But if. If you enter into it gently and say, you know, do you wanna talk about this? And if they're responding, well, I think that's, that's an invitation. But yeah, I definitely think that, don't be afraid to talk about what's on your heart. And if people are gonna judge you, people are gonna judge you no matter what.

[00:37:12] Jill: That's true. They are gonna judge us no matter what. So you might as well judge me for something that I want to be judged for, which is being weird and being the fuck, being the weird one in town that talks to everybody about death. You can judge me for that. I'm fine with it. 

[00:37:24] Emily: So, gosh, yes.

[00:37:26] Absolutely. I agree with you. Awesome. 

[00:37:28] Jill: Well, thank you so much Emily. It really was a pleasure and I'll definitely put everything in the show notes so people can find you. Thank you, and I appreciate it. 

[00:37:35] Emily: Thank you. I appreciate you too. Thank you so much. 

[00:37:39] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Clearly.

[00:37:43] My guest next week is Patrick Gigliotti. Patrick is a hospice care consultant with Compass Hospice and Palliative Care here in New Jersey. We talk about his life path leading up to this work, which he considers the most rewarding work he could do. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

[00:38:02] Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five-star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

[00:38:19] Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free, whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one-time contribution.

[00:38:39] Thank you and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.