Embracing Life Through Grief with Dr. Kim Harms

Dr. Kim Harms has encountered numerous challenges throughout her 67 years. She endured the tragic losses of her mother, son, and husband, all to different circumstances. These losses prompted her to delve into the topic of death, exploring how individuals manage it and the impact it has on their lives.

In her reflections, Kim highlights the unexpected nature of grief, especially when it comes to losing a child. She emphasizes the importance of confronting grief head-on and not allowing it to consume one's life. Kim observes societal attitudes toward death, noting a prevalent sense of control and avoidance, particularly in Western culture.

Through her experiences and observations, Kim advocates for embracing life with joy, even in the face of grief. She stresses the significance of cherishing moments with loved ones and fostering connections. Kim shares insights from her journey of healing and encourages others to navigate their grief with resilience.

In her book, Kim explores the concept of legacy, emphasizing the impact of everyday interactions on shaping one's legacy. She delves into discussions about death and dying, challenging common fears and misconceptions. Drawing from diverse perspectives, she encourages open dialogue about the end of life and practical preparations for it.

Kim shares personal anecdotes, including her husband's peaceful passing and her son's impactful funeral, which brought communities together in support. She discusses forgiveness and reconciliation as essential aspects of coping with loss and fostering healing.

Ultimately, Kim's message is one of hope and empowerment, urging individuals to confront their mortality with courage and preparation. Her book serves as a guide for navigating the complexities of grief and preparing for the inevitable, offering practical advice and heartfelt reflections.

https://www.drkimberlyharms.com/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHG23HD5

drkim@pinelakelawfirm.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kim: You're never healed from grief, but to get into a part where you can live each day to the fullest and not, not live each day with that shroud of grief hanging over you to be able to see things clearly is a great gift. 

[00:00:12] Jill: Welcome back to seeing death clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

[00:00:37] In this episode, I talk. with Dr. Kim Harms, author of the book, Are You Ready? How to Build a Legacy to Die For. Kim shares her journey of overcoming unimaginable loss, including the suicides of her son and her mother, as well as her husband's death. Through grief, Kim explores the societal taboos surrounding death, advocating for a more open and accepting approach.

[00:01:01] She emphasizes the importance of embracing joy amidst sorrow and cherishing moments with loved ones. Kim's book gets into legacy building. Conversations about death and practical preparations for the end of life. Kim inspires listeners to confront grief with resilience, forgiveness, and reconciliation.

[00:01:20] Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Kim. I'm really happy to have you here today. Can you start us off with just a little bit of background information about you, who you are, anything 

[00:01:32] Kim: you want to share? Well, Jill, it's so good to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

[00:01:35] Well, I'm just, I'm, I'm a, uh, 67 year old dentist who has been around the block in dentistry and in life. I have had a number of tragic circumstances, I guess you could say, in your life, as has most people when they're 67 years old, by the way. Uh, I lost my mother and my son to suicide, and I lost my husband to, uh, congestive heart failure, which I believe was, uh, Least precipitated or encouraged by the suicides of my son.

[00:02:02] So that is why I've been focusing over the last year or so on the topic of what is death? How do we manage it? How do we get through it? How do we grieve through it? And maybe we can if we start changing our views on death But we may be able to live a little healthier more peaceful life I 

[00:02:20] Jill: completely agree with that that we need to change our views because it actually helps us to live life better.

[00:02:27] But it's hard to get that message across sometimes when so many of us completely shut down at the mention of death and dying and grief. And I am very sorry to hear about your son and your mother as well and your husband, but just as a mother. The death of a child, that part that just cracks me open a little bit.

[00:02:46] So I'm so 

[00:02:46] Kim: sorry about that. It's out of order. As a woman, most of us become widows at some time. But we do not anticipate the loss of a child and it just really kind of destroys our view of how the world's supposed to work when that happens. And it takes a lot of rebuilding to get over that. 

[00:03:00] Jill: I think the biggest thing is Children are not supposed to die before us, which is not the natural order of things.

[00:03:06] But the reality of life is a lot of people have children die before they do. And especially in the past, it used to be much more common. In some ways, we're really lucky with today, the way that medical advancements have gone and things like that. We don't lose children at the rate that Even my grandmother, her mother back in the early 1900s.

[00:03:30] That's why people sometimes had so many kids, because a lot of the time you'd have at least a few that would die from illnesses. And thankfully we have progressed from there, but there's nothing that can completely prevent that from being 

[00:03:44] Kim: us. Absolutely. And I think that we have kind of grown into this, especially in the United States.

[00:03:50] I work in other countries and especially Rwanda, which is just an amazing, if you ever need grief counseling, go to Rwanda. They know how to do it there. They're just amazing people. But in our country, especially, we seem to grow up with this notion that we have control. We plan for things, we expect things, and that we have control.

[00:04:08] And I think that part of the healing process, of course you're never healed from a grief, but when you're to get into a part where you can live each day to the fullest, and not not live each day with that shroud of grief hanging over you, changing every outlook you have on life, is It's seen through that trial to be able to see things clearly is a great gift.

[00:04:27] And I think that if we can learn in our country to understand that we don't have control, that things are going to happen and that how we manage it affects the people around us, especially our children and our grandchildren, that was. Probably the biggest message I just would like to give out is that we really need to take a look, grief will take over us.

[00:04:45] I was in that grief pit many times. I was buying curtains for the windows because I was getting comfortable down there. And I realized that if I allow myself to stay there, first of all, it's a miserable place to be for me, but it's also a miserable place for the people around me. And the more I could try to fight and scrape and kick and gnaw my way out of that place, the better it is not just for me.

[00:05:05] but also for my children, for my grandchildren, for the people I come in contact every day. So I really would love to encourage people that find themselves in that deep pit to just fight their way out of it. And some people can't make it. I know that everybody can make it out, but we need to understand that it's a battle to get out and not to succumb if you can possibly 

[00:05:22] Jill: help it.

[00:05:23] And there is people that can help through the process. You know, nobody can do the work for you, but there is support for people. And I think sometimes society too, especially if it's a parent that lost a child, there's almost like this. Idea that you shouldn't ever get over it. You should stay in that pit of grief because if you don't then what's wrong with you and it's really sad to see that because like you said, What if you have other children?

[00:05:50] What if you have grandchildren? You still need to be able to show up and be the best that you can be for those other people in your life. And just because you work through the grief, just because you heal yourself as best as you can again, you'll never get over it. That doesn't mean that you've forgotten about the child.

[00:06:10] It doesn't mean that you don't love them still. It doesn't even mean that you're okay with the situation. It just means that you have healed in order to continue to live your life. But we don't always see it that way, and it's frustrating. 

[00:06:22] Kim: I've been very fortunate to have an amazing group of friends, and I was with a group last night, and this happened to be a group of widows that have lost their husbands, and one of them has found that spot.

[00:06:31] She actually, this one was actually divorced, but we made her an honorary widow. I think divorce can be just as Difficult is losing a husband through death, but she was saying, well, you know, everything's going well. I'm working with my family. I'm in those place. I want to be, and I, I feel like I'm really happy, but then I feel really guilty that I'm feeling happy.

[00:06:48] So then I feel like I shouldn't be happy because I feel guilty that I should be happy. And I just thought, Oh no, this is a false sense of guilt. And yeah, Boy, the way to live a full life is to live it with as much joy as you can. And that joy gets squashed by what we expect people are either going to think of us or about what we think of ourselves.

[00:07:06] But if we can have joy in our own life, there should be no guilt over having joy in your life and showing joy to other people. And I have six grandchildren, so that's where my main focus right now is. When my husband died, the last day he was here, He was in kind of bad shape. We kept the kids away thinking we don't want them to see Pop Pop while he's in such bad shape.

[00:07:27] And I don't think that was the best thing to do. I know two of them, we have twins that were, see, they were seven at the time. And they said, well, we wanted to go and see Pop Pop before he died. We wanted to say goodbye to Pop Pop. And so I think that we need to really look carefully at how we're managing our expectations of other people.

[00:07:44] And, uh, do whatever we can to realize that the people around us are also going to be grieving, and what do we need to do that's best for them? As society, there's no real guidelines, unfortunately, but we need to really look towards those. There's definitely 

[00:07:57] Jill: no guidelines, especially when it comes to children and end of life in general, grief, all of it.

[00:08:04] Because I hear it so often from grown adults that say, I wasn't allowed to see my mother before she died. Nobody even told me that she was dying. And it still is affecting them 40, 50 years later, that they were not able. And I understand people do it with the best of intentions. We want to shield the children.

[00:08:24] We want to protect them. Because yes, sometimes it can be a little scary to see somebody, especially if they're hooked up to any kind of machines. They might not look like themselves, but I feel that even children, we should give them the option to choose and also let them change their mind. Maybe if they say, yeah, I want to go in and I want to say goodbye.

[00:08:45] And then they start to, and they say, no, this isn't for me. Okay. No problem. We're going to go right back out, but giving them at least some choice just seems like the best. Way to do it. But we don't know because you're right so far. I haven't seen too many examples of it being done really well. People are doing the best they can.

[00:09:06] And most of us are not prepared for the end of life because we've all avoided it. So we have to navigate our own feelings and our own emotions and then trying to decide what we think is best for our children. And it's just a lot comes up. And I know you wrote a book and I actually have the title here.

[00:09:25] because I knew I wasn't going to remember it. Are you ready? How to build a legacy to die for? And I love the title. First off, I think it's amazing and it's making me think, so you were talking earlier about how we want to control everything. We're just a society that we feel like we need to be in control, but yet so many of us don't do any planning.

[00:09:48] for the end of life, and then we completely lose control. So there's like this fine line of, we can't control it, but we could still plan to make it easier. So can you just tell me more about your book and just your thoughts on 

[00:10:02] Kim: all of that? It's taken me about a year and a half to write this book because it's 300 pages, so there's a lot of book there.

[00:10:08] But I looked at what happened after my husband died, and I looked at my grandchildren. And of course, anybody that's a grandmother knows that you just want the very best for your grandchildren as you do your children. And I thought, well, what do we need to do? What can we do better? And as we look at life, and again, being 67, it's at 67, most of us have lost quite a bit in our lives, because of either you're young and you die early and you don't have much loss, or you live a long time and then you've got lots of loss because everybody else dies.

[00:10:33] So, you know, we're kind of, so the senior citizens of Baby Boomers, we know a lot about grief. And so I wanted to write a book for them because I realized that we are in this death denial mode. Where we're denying, we know we're going to die, but we're going to deny we're going to die and we'll go to extreme lengths to extend our day, extend our lives by a day, a week, a month, but not prepare for what happens afterwards.

[00:10:53] The book is in three parts. The first part is about building a legacy. Now, the one thing we do have control over is our actions right now, the interactions we have right now with the people that are in front of us right now, and the legacy that you build is based upon your interactions with everybody in your life.

[00:11:09] But there's certain things you can build. I look back on some amazing. I think people that built, uh, their, I have a Jewish Holocaust survivor who built a legacy of resilience. I work in Rwanda. We built 65 libraries in Rwanda now in the name of my son, Eric Harms Memorial Libraries in Rwanda through Books for Africa.

[00:11:25] So I've met lots of Rwandans that have been there many times. They have a country that was completely torn apart in the worst way possible through a genocide in 1994. They have built back a strong, safe, amazing country in which they understand that if we don't forgive and reconcile people. Our children are going to suffer the same thing that we did.

[00:11:43] And by doing that, by making those great sacrifices of forgiving and reconciling, and building back and looking to the future, they have built an amazing country. So look at your legacy, look at what you're building now, and your interaction with the people in front of you. And you don't have to win a Nobel Prize or a Pulitzer or anything like that.

[00:12:00] You don't have to be famous to build a legacy. You build your legacy one person at a time in every interaction you have. And I think we need to focus on that, that everything we do is a legacy. The second part of the book focuses on death and dying. And how do we look at dying? What do we think happens to you after you die?

[00:12:17] And one of the things that I've been starting to do, I'm a Christian, but one of the things I've been doing that's been just fascinating is I've been asking people from all walks of life, from all different views of life, what do they think is going to happen to when they die? And I just sit back.

[00:12:31] Completely non judgmental because what do I know? I'm just me. And listen to what they say and what they think. And I think it's fascinating the different beliefs out there about what happens to us after we die. And most of them are very happy ones. So typically we don't really need to be too afraid of that.

[00:12:45] But explore the different views of what happens after death, what percentage of people are afraid of what might happen after we die. Most people are not afraid. They think it's going to be okay, but they really don't like the getting to dying part, you know, that now I'm going to get there. So that's part two.

[00:12:58] I want to just talk about death, talk about dying, talk about some of the things you can do during that time. And you're as a death duel, you know, all the end of life issues you need to talk about what's going to happen. Make sure all of your belongings are clearly demarcated and you've talked to people about it.

[00:13:13] Make sure that all your passwords are in line. If you have, someone has access to all those things that they need. So that when you die, and it's a long list. So it takes, as you know, it takes a while to get through all those pieces. Doesn't take that long, maybe a couple of days, you could do it. You can make it so much easier for your loved ones.

[00:13:30] If you just get all of that stuff in order, and particularly right about the time you're going to die, my husband, Jim. was in the hospital. And after my son died, he had been back and forth in the hospital. The joke at his birthday was that twice in 15, 13 years, he didn't almost die because those other times he almost died with something every year.

[00:13:48] We were in the hospital. He's supposed to die, go through all of that. And then he comes back. He lives. So it's great. In fact, he actually died twice at the end, but that's another story. So my husband clearly said. And when he was in the hospital, he said, you know what? I do not want to be in the hospital anymore.

[00:14:03] I want to go home. And so we had wonderful hospice nurses that came in, I can't say enough about them, who sat down with him and asked him, do you want to be resuscitated? Do you want to be put on a ventilator? And he said, no, I do not do not do that to me. I don't want to go back in the hospital. When I die, I want to die at home.

[00:14:19] He made it so clear to me. That was a tremendous gift. to me and to his family because we didn't have to argue about what we were going to do. He probably could have lived a couple of weeks longer if we put him in the hospital, put him on a ventilator, but that's not how he wanted to live. And he ended up dying so peacefully.

[00:14:36] In fact, my son's, what would have been his 33rd birthday. Jim was in the tub, we have a walk in tub and I, I was, he was on oxygen and I just taken the oxygen off to get a shirt on. During that time he just stopped breathing slumped down and he wasn't breathing, no pulse and I panicked because he was DNR.

[00:14:55] I tried to get him because some rescue breathing is he was just talking and we're not before this and so all of a sudden he's gone and I panicked and. Trying to get some rescue breathing and that didn't work. Then I called the hospice nurse. He said they were coming over. Then I called my daughter and I was on the phone with them.

[00:15:09] And it must've been 20 minutes from the time the incident occurred, where he stopped breathing. And I was on the phone with my daughter and we were crying on the phone. And I looked over and I could see him right there. And all of a sudden he took a big, big. A big breath, just like in the movies. I mean, just like in the movies, it was completely surreal.

[00:15:26] And I said, he's alive. I dropped the phone, ran in there and he was breathing normally. Now, after 20 minutes, well, the hospice nurse was right there because she was, she had already was knocking on the door right about the same time. So she came in. I'm so sorry for your loss. He's alive. She ran over. It was able to get the rescuers to come, got him into bed.

[00:15:44] But he wasn't speaking. He wasn't talking. He was breathing. So then, of course, this is where all the false guilt comes when you're in the process of dying. You feel maybe you're responsible, especially when it comes to suicide. But in this particular case, I felt, oh my gosh, I shouldn't have taken off the, the oxygen, which I've done every day to get a shirt on because you kind of have to take a shirt on.

[00:16:03] I started blaming myself. And then now that he's alive again, I thought, Oh no, I gave him rescue breathing. Maybe that helped bring him back. And then now he's going to be a vegetable and he won't be able to talk. And now I'm going to make him live longer than he wanted to. So all of the guilt, no matter what goes on in your brain, your brain just goes crazy during these situations.

[00:16:20] But anyway, we got in there and he started talking. Again, when he started talking, he was talking clearly. He was just the same Jim that he was this morning. And he woke up and he said, Why am I not in the tub? We explained it to him. And I have to admit, as a Christian, I did a lot of research on near death experiences, where people see things as they die, which I completely believe in.

[00:16:41] And I was a little disappointed, I have to say, that he didn't say. And I saw Eric there, and I saw Jesus, and I just came back to say goodbye. I wanted to hit that story. But of course, I realized that Seeing Eric, there's no way they would have gotten him back. When you lose a child, he never would come back.

[00:16:54] So he didn't, didn't have any stories. But he had, we, so I called all of his relatives, this was 2020, called all of his family. I said, look, it's very serious. We don't know how long he's going to live. We explained what happened. And so that day, He was in bed. We had nurses that were, some of our nieces were nurses that we've helped raise, and they happened to be in town that day.

[00:17:14] My daughter from Kansas City just happened to be in town that day. They all came over. They puffed him up with pillows. They all were on the bed with him. We were all gathered on the bed with him, talking to him the whole time. He got all the, he's diabetic, so he got all the Diet Coke. He got all the ice cream, whatever he wanted.

[00:17:29] He just had the whole day. We just reveled in him, and he had the most wonderful, wonderful day, and it was my son's. 31st birthday would have been. And then he died peacefully the next morning. Very, very peaceful death. So I don't think death is grim. I think it's, it's very peaceful from my experiences with it.

[00:17:46] The getting there, getting to death, obviously with the suicide, certainly is. But the death part, I think, is gentle. I would like for us to maybe not fear it so much. Because I think if we fear it, we aren't going to talk about it. 

[00:17:58] Jill: Wow. Yes, to all of that. And that is a really amazing story where he like popped back and came back.

[00:18:06] I guess you do kind of hear that sometimes from hospice nurses where people have that kind of rally at the end, but I'd never heard of it where somebody actually was like, No 

[00:18:15] Kim: pulse. I checked his pulse and there's no breath. But then that first breath was like, it really was like in the movies. It was almost like surreal that this, all of this happened.

[00:18:24] But also for me, what I realized too is, and again, I'm a Christian, I believe God gave me this one amazing gift when he died. The hospice nurse had come. He was kind of rolled out of bed and I was sitting with him on the floor, you know, while we're waiting for the hospice nurse to come again. And the hospice nurse came and he was talking and so on.

[00:18:40] She called the rescuers to go back to lift him up on the bed and he was talking just normally. And they lifted him up and as they were lifting him up. I saw he stopped, his breathing stopped, just like it had the day before, just like, just stop. And I was watching him, they put him down, and as the rescuers were leaving, they looked back and they said, wait a minute, is he breathing?

[00:19:00] And of course, the hospice nurse stepped in and said, he's on hospice, so we're going to let him go. But for me, what it did for me was, there were two sets of professionals, Between me and Jim when he died because I think God knows I tend to take a lot of false guilt in that just character and When it happened, I had that feeling that okay.

[00:19:21] I know now this was his time. This was his time. I didn't make it come any faster. I didn't do anything that would help it along. This was his time. And it was, to me, a very spiritual experience because I felt like, okay, God's saying, Kim, it's his time. So now you can't feel guilty over any of this. And there's so much false guilt, especially with suicide.

[00:19:40] My mother took her own life. My son took his own life. Who's in between? Me. So lots and lots and lots of guilt that I had to work through in my life, as you blame yourself for things that really were beyond your control. But We just typically tend to blame ourselves for things. And I would just encourage people that are in that situation to really work through that false guilt.

[00:19:59] Jill: Yes. And I have a question that you can answer if you choose to. You do not have to. Were you Christian when your son took his own life? 

[00:20:09] Kim: Yes. In fact, I grew up Catholic and my husband was Baptist and to me, I'm a Christian and I believe my faith is between me and God. Whether you're Catholic or Baptist or Methodist or whatever, I don't really see a difference in that.

[00:20:22] Certainly don't judge anyone else. I just know what I believe. But I, I'm a Christian. When my mother died as a Catholic, now my mother was the most godly woman you could imagine. Absolutely. Amazing woman. She was bipolar. And when she took her life, the Catholic church at that time didn't recognize her.

[00:20:38] Someone that took their life. I think we were supposed to go to limbo or something, but nobody would give her a funeral. And she was the most godly woman ever. However, when my son died, there were so many changes. First of all, he went to a Catholic school. He was Baptist, he went to a Catholic school. That when he had his funeral, it was a all boys Catholic military academy here in Minnesota.

[00:20:59] And when he had his funeral, he wasn't, he was at Columbia university. He was a genius. He was this brilliant guy. He was, uh, he was a jazz pianist. He was on the Dean's list in engineering. He was a national merit scholar and he was elected to student council at Columbia university. So this is one guy that's on top of the world, right?

[00:21:17] And he loved people so much. He was in love and he went back to college and when he came back in the first semester, he was on top of the world. Went back the second semester and his girlfriend broke up with him, which girlfriends do. I mean, if she didn't love him, that's what she should have done. And he was gone in 45 minutes because life within 45 minutes.

[00:21:32] And part of that is he's 19. He is a Very impulsive jazz pianists tend to be extremely impulsive. That's part of what makes them so good. His brain wasn't fully developed. He didn't really know how to cope with this. So 45 minutes later, he was gone. We just saw him two weeks ago on top of the world. And now we find he's gone.

[00:21:49] But what happened was his funeral was amazing. There were thousands of people there that I go to a large church. The sanctuary was packed. All of the side rooms were packed. They had to do videos of the funeral for the side rooms. It was just packed with people. And he was no longer at this Catholic high school.

[00:22:05] Yet, they brought buses and buses of kids in their dress uniform, these young boys, and I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it, in their dress uniforms. And they sat there, the orchestra, Eric was the band leader there, so, so the orchestra, the band and orchestra were there to play. And All of our church was there, our pastors were there, more than one pastor was giving the sermon.

[00:22:25] And at the very end, I will never forget, when his casket was being brought down the aisle, those young boys, just think 15, 16, 17 year old young boys dressed in their dressed uniforms, were standing at attention and saluting. his casket. I still get goosebumps from that as he was going up that aisle. So the Catholic church has completely changed in their view.

[00:22:46] And a couple weeks later, I ran into the priest that was there, and Eric was called the Dancing Bear, because he would dance when he would lead the band out there when they're out marching on the field, he would dance, and they called him the Dancing Bear. And he came up, and this priest was dying himself.

[00:23:00] He had oxygen on. He was just a few weeks, I think, before he died, but he would just happened. to be at the school when I just happened to be at the school to deliver some of the money and collect it after Eric died. And he met in the hallway. So like we normally would not be there. We just happened to meet that one time that we're both there at the same time.

[00:23:17] And he's told me, he said, Kim, that was one of the saddest moments of my life when I heard Eric died. And he said, I know I'm going to see him up there probably just a couple of weeks because he knew he was dying. So the views of the church have changed tremendously since my mother died. And I even got a letter.

[00:23:34] We're not Catholic. I got a letter from the Archbishop about how he had heard about Eric's funeral and what a positive impact it was on those boys, because we talked about suicide at the funeral. We said, look at the impact. Eric wasn't thinking, and I've been in that place myself. You're thinking that the world is better off without you.

[00:23:48] You get in that horrible dark place. So I wanted them to look at this and let it think that this, this is the consequence. This is what happens. Don't be fooled that the world is better off without you. They're not. The churches had an amazing impact on our lives. And on the lives of the kids, the boys in his school, and then Columbia university, they actually built a, they have a memorial.

[00:24:09] There's a permanent memorial at Columbia university, a shadbush right in front of the engineering building. And they built it, they planted a shadbush because Eric was this big old bear kind of guy. And they said they planted it because he was so giving because they said it had beautiful flowers in the spring.

[00:24:25] It bore fruit in the summer. It had beautiful leaves in the fall, and in the winter, the retained fruit would feed the birds. So it was a giving tree year round, and they planted that in his honor at Columbia University in New York City. Who would have known this little kid could have such an impact? So, in my mind, I'm so grateful for the Catholic Church.

[00:24:44] and the Baptist Church, and the fact that they have really taken a close look at suicide, and a close look at what can cause it, and have decided it's a disease like anything else. And if there is any sin involved, it's a sin like any other sin, and we're all sinners, so that's the new review. And I can't tell you how that comforted me, because it's a long, that was a long drawn out grief.

[00:25:04] It was probably, it's been 15 years, it'll be 15 years this January, and I think that I could finally see the world without the shroud maybe 10 years later. And I struggled, and I worked hard. I worked really hard to get rid of the grief, and it was a long struggle, but I made it. I got there. I enjoy my grandchildren 100%.

[00:25:20] I enjoy my children 100%. I look at the world without the shroud, and I can talk about grief now. So even if it takes a long time, it is worth the struggle. I grew up 

[00:25:29] Jill: Catholic as well, and I remember the stigma and the, just like, judgment, really, about suicide. And I wasn't sure if it had changed at all. And is that just a Catholic thing?

[00:25:44] Or even in the Baptist church, like, other Christian sects, I guess, is that the right word for it? Is there still that same view of, 

[00:25:51] Kim: like, suicide? In my church, it's a Baptist church. So we had, so remember, so all these Catholic boys, these buses of Catholic boys, were coming to a Baptist church. And Eric was in the worship team, he sang in the worship team, so he was well known in the church.

[00:26:04] They, couldn't have been more wonderful. In fact, our pastor of our church, and again, I believe our relationship with God is between us and God one on one. So, there are churches that have bad actors in every church, every type of church, every denomination will have bad actors. So, I, I, you can't really judge them on the bad actors.

[00:26:21] I just had good actors in my life. This pastor from our church, gave a beautiful, a beautiful eulogy of Eric, and of suicide, taking up a life is considered a sin, but we are all sinners, and we all make mistakes, and it's due to an illness, it's like depression, which I believe that's something God's going to look at, but it was a beautiful, it was an accepting speech, but in one, one hand, it's a, it's a Very fine line.

[00:26:46] Difficult line to balance. On one end, and he assured me too, he's up there in heaven. We know Eric. We know what he's doing. He's up there. It was a very fine line to balance because here you have all of these vulnerable children, kids from high school that were there. And you don't want them to think Oh, if you get sad, just do this and you'll be happy.

[00:27:04] It's a very fine and difficult line. And he did it extremely well. And again, we got a note from the Archbishop of the diocese who wasn't there, but he had heard of this. So that impact of that funeral carried beyond, beyond the funeral itself and how well it was handled by our pastor. So I got such incredible support from all of our pastors.

[00:27:25] And I was a wreck. I was a wreck. And I'm going to give you just, can I give you one word, a little story, just a quick story? Yeah. This is another thing that happened. Are you familiar with Tony Dungy? He was a Super Bowl winning coach and he's an author. 

[00:27:37] Jill: Oh no, I'm not too big into football. Okay. 

[00:27:40] Kim: That's okay.

[00:27:40] But his son took his life in similar circumstances, right before he won the Super Bowl. And his brother, Lyndon Dungey, was a dentist right down the street from us. We were acquaintances, but not really close friends at that point. When Eric died, he started writing us letters. And Tony's a strong Christian, and Lyndon's a strong Christian.

[00:27:57] He started writing us letters about, I'm so sorry to hear about your son. My nephew Jamie took his own life. Similar circumstances right after a breakup with a girlfriend, about the same age, just about the same thing. And he was just feeding us with this wonderful encouragement from our faith. And he would send letters.

[00:28:13] He sent 13 all together. We ended up meeting him for lunch every Tuesday. So we developed a good friendship. So as a dentist, when you have a loss like this, and my son was well known throughout the community, you could just imagine he was in the plays and people knew who he was. So every time as a dentist, I would see maybe seven or eight patients myself, and then I would do those hygiene checks.

[00:28:31] All of those people wanted to tell me they're sorry about, about Eric. You have that first one on one face meeting with somebody new about your son. So probably 15 or 20 times a day I had to kind of go through that, I'm so sorry about your son, and get a hug, which was great in that they were doing exactly the right thing.

[00:28:48] But it's really hard. It's kind of a hard profession to be in because if you're by yourself, there's nobody there. You don't have to face it, but you've just got to deal with it. And one day I had a complete and total meltdown. And I'm sure most people that have been through grief have had that where you just can't even breathe.

[00:29:00] I was in the hallway and I was just wondering, where's my son? Where's my son? Because I kind of made a deal with God. Look, look, you know, you made a deal with us where you gave your son to take care of our sins. And now we get to go to heaven. So if Eric's not in heaven, then let me take his place and let him go.

[00:29:14] Cause I'm his mom. I was going through this really deep. time and I was crying and crying. I was in the hallway and I just couldn't, couldn't stop it. I had two of my hygienists with me, one who had also lost her son to suicide right after a breakup with a girlfriend. So I had the best people with me. I just couldn't stop crying.

[00:29:29] And all of a sudden, my office manager ran into the hallway with a letter from Lyndon that he had decided to write that morning, had driven up to my office, said she needs to get this right away, didn't know why, and she delivered it to me, and it said, and being Catholic, I don't have the Bible memorized, as many of my Baptist friends do, but it was a quotation from Romans that basically said, not angels, nor demons, nor anything else can separate you from the love of God.

[00:29:55] which to me was like, Kim, he's up here, knock it off. So I kind of felt I was getting some good messages. But those are the kinds of things that have happened that have really strengthened my faith too, but have happened to me to really allow me, because if you lose your child or your husband or your mother, you want them to be in a good place.

[00:30:11] And worrying about all that is just a horrible part of trying to grieve. And I think we need to learn to, we can't do anything about any of that. For one thing, we need to let go of that. And because we can't move forward as long as we're just still stuck with that grief and that worry and it's taken care of and I think that's the message I got.

[00:30:29] It's taken care of, Kim. Don't worry about this part. Basically, I kind of feel your son is gone and now my husband is gone when that was my identity as a mother and a wife, right? I have two daughters, which is great. I'm not done with you yet. You got things to do. So that's something too that our life isn't over yet.

[00:30:46] We need to look at our lives and realize we need to live beyond that. I have two daughters and I want them to know they're enough. And so I've spent most of my life really now trying to make sure they understand they're enough. And my children are enough. My grandchildren are enough. So I think that's one thing we need to make sure I had a nephew who lost his brother and then lost his relationship with his parents because they were in such grief.

[00:31:07] So they lost their children. So that's another thing to really understand the people around you were important to make sure they know they're enough. I was actually 

[00:31:14] Jill: just thinking that as you started to say it, how often, unfortunately, And again, there's no judgment towards parents that can't get out of that grief, but yeah, you not only lose one child, you can really lose all of your children with the death of one child.

[00:31:31] If you get really stuck in your grief, because I read a ton of books about grief and death and like all these things. And some of the stuff that I had read was. Children who a sibling died and they're like, I might as well died with them because that was the end of my life as I knew it. My parents couldn't get out of it.

[00:31:52] I was basically invisible. They forgot that I was even there. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think of. Even as a parent of like, just being that stuck that you would just lose, you would lose 

[00:32:05] Kim: everything. And that's the natural place for us to go. You have to fight out of it. You have to have that realization and the focus, because we naturally go down into that pit.

[00:32:14] We just want to hide under the muck and never bring our faces up again. We get that deep. So that's a natural place to go. It also was what forced me out of it for myself, forced me out of it for them. But then it forced me out for myself. It's wonderful to live in a world where you can see joy again, because you don't see any joy for a long time when you're in the pit and you can't even, it doesn't register.

[00:32:34] So it's worth it. It's worth the fight. And what do 

[00:32:37] Jill: you think for you were some of the best things? Like, it seems like your faith was a really big part of getting out of this grief pit as you call it. And I think that's a perfect description for it. Was there other things that you found really helped you?

[00:32:52] Because there probably is a lot of people that they're like, I just don't know how, like, I want to get out of this place. I don't know where to even start. So is there any tips or things that you can share that helped you get out of that? 

[00:33:06] Kim: Understand that you need to get out of your comfort zone, because your comfort zone's in the pit.

[00:33:10] It's like what's under the muck. You have to fight to get out. Now, the story that my nephew told me about was, he told us not to make sure that our kids knew they were enough. The one that had lost his parents, that was a big kicker. That really got me going. I think also, Getting out and doing things that, where you can be useful to other people, going out.

[00:33:30] Now, for me, I happen to have been Rwanda that the country of Rwanda kept kicking me in my face after, after I didn't really pay much attention to the genocide. It happened when I was young with young kids and I didn't really have any idea what went on there, but I found through reading a book, I'm left to tell by Immaculate because this horrible thing happened.

[00:33:49] And not only did they manage to rebuild a country. They didn't just lose one child. They had lost their entire families. They lost it because their neighbors came over with sickles and axes. And I mean, they lost it by people that they usually used to trust. It was a horrible situation yet. There are people there that have been able to move forward.

[00:34:07] I sat next to a woman who said she was from Rwanda and she had two daughters and a husband. Both were killed in the genocide. But now I have two more daughters. And I have a new husband, and the daughters and the husband that are new are also survivors. So they rearranged their families. They took in people that they normally would not have taken in.

[00:34:26] We can look outside of our country, all the answers aren't right here, and there are people around the world, particularly in the area of death and dying and grief. that have stories that are, are so encouraging to us. And so I really made a point, we again, we have libraries there in Eric's name, but I made a point to go there and, and just research.

[00:34:43] How did you get through this? And in my book, I talk about forgiveness and reconciliation. It was through forgiveness and reconciliation and realizing that unless they reconciled, their children would be stuck with the same problems they had. So understanding that forgiveness and reconciliation passes through generations.

[00:34:58] I want to show my grandchildren that, that it's important to forgive people, to apologize for things, to admit your mistakes, and relationships are important. I want them to know that. And so, they really taught me so much about the value of legacy, that we need to teach these legacies to our children, and how important it is.

[00:35:16] to, to forgive. Astonishing repercussions, positive repercussions of forgiving, not only for the person you've forgiven, because sometimes they won't accept your forgiveness. They'll think, I have nothing to forgive, right? But for you, because you've just let yourself free. You've let yourself go, and forgiving yourself.

[00:35:31] And we also learned from Lyndon Dungey, because he would tell me what Tony Dungey had gone through, and he'd remind me that you have to realize that you're going to grieve differently. My husband and I were opposites in how we grieved. Jim would go into Eric's bedroom every day. and sit for a while. I didn't go there for two years.

[00:35:47] We didn't change the bedroom. I mean, I didn't go, and that sounds crazy, except if you've lost a child, you know what I'm talking about. It sounds crazy, but I couldn't even go in there for two years. I could go in there. We learned to accept that we were different in our grieving. And we learned to still love each other and nobody blamed.

[00:36:03] When Eric died, there was no blame. Our family is closer than it could, you know, ever could be because we didn't blame. We were in this grief together and there was no blaming. And so I think those were the biggest lessons, not to blame, to understand grief is different for every person, not to judge anybody that they're in the grief pit for.

[00:36:19] 20 years or can get out in two. It took me 10, can get out in two, there's no judgment. Hallelujah. If you can get out in two, that's great. And I think that those are probably the best lessons not to judge, to understand other people and to fight your way out of the pit. 

[00:36:32] Jill: And the forgiveness that is such a really huge lesson that I wish more of us could really learn.

[00:36:39] And like you said about forgiving ourselves, I think that is the hardest person to forgive. And if we could just learn to forgive ourselves, and I even think about it as a mother, I think about this stuff a lot now, but I'm like, if one of my children was God forbid to die, what regrets would I have? And the regrets would be not being fully present and not showing up and not taking my time.

[00:37:07] So I tell my son, Every day, multiple times a day. I love you so much. And he's 12. So he's like, I know mom, you already said it. I'm like, I'm going to say it every day, multiple times a day, hopefully until I die. Because I just don't want you to ever forget. I don't ever want to think that one of my children was to die, whether it was an accident or illness or suicide, like anything like that.

[00:37:29] Thinking, do they know how much I love them? Cause I'm not perfect. I'm not a perfect mom. I try my best. But I'm not perfect. I think that's one of the biggest things with grief is that there's so much regret that we can't forgive ourselves for not doing the things or not seeing signs or whatever it is that our little brains want to tell us.

[00:37:51] And then we just get so stuck in it because we're beating ourselves up over and over and over just hurting ourselves. So I'm so happy that you were able to get out of this and find the forgiveness for yourself and to share this message because people do need to hear that it's possible to do things differently than the way that we've seen the way that we've been doing it.

[00:38:15] And forgiveness is just such a beautiful message at any stage of life that we're in. If we could forgive ourselves and forgive others, you're right. It's not for them. They might not accept it. Honestly, anytime that I've really forgiven somebody, most of the time, I haven't even really told them. I'm just like, this is for me so that I don't continue to punish myself or hurt myself based off of what they did.

[00:38:39] So it's beautiful. 

[00:38:41] Kim: One of the best habits we formed as a family was that every time we get off the phone with each other or we leave, we say, Oh, love ya. We say that every time. So Eric, we knew every one of us that our last words to Eric was love ya. So that's a habit that's just an easy habit to get into because you didn't know when the last time would be.

[00:38:58] So good habit. 

[00:39:00] Jill: Yeah, it's true. We don't know when the last time's going to be. And I really want my family to know how much I love them because I do. They, they mean the 

[00:39:09] Kim: world to me. And that's the greatest legacy is love. It's true. 

[00:39:13] Jill: It's so true. And I had to get a little clear on that in some ways. I'm 45 now.

[00:39:18] And so when I was growing up in like the 80s and 90s, it was like, you go out and you work really hard and you accomplish. And so in my head, I had to have all of these Things that now I'm like, you know what? I have a family that I love and that loves me. And that to me is the most important thing. So changing those priorities sometimes around what our legacy really should be can be helpful.

[00:39:45] Absolutely. This has been an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you coming on. I'll give you a minute now if you want to share. I'll put the link to your book in the show notes so people can easily find that. I could link to your website. Is there any last thoughts, any things you want to share so people can reach you?

[00:40:03] What do you want to 

[00:40:04] Kim: close us off with? I think that the book is available, pretty available on Amazon, anywhere else, and they can reach me at DrKim at PineLakeLawFirm. com if they have any questions, I'd certainly be happy to help anybody that I can, but the book really was my legacy to just help people prepare for death.

[00:40:22] And, and I've come to face to face and I even put little templates in there for if you need to write an apology, here's a template, you just fill in the words, write it and send it or here's a reconciliation or here's this because sometimes people can't find the words. Got a lot of words in there to help people.

[00:40:35] Hopefully it will be helpful to people to face their own death and just be prepared so that when they go, their children can have some emotional security that they may not have if there's fighting or arguing because things weren't settled before the 

[00:40:47] Jill: death. A lot of times the fighting and the arguing could be prevented.

[00:40:51] if we were to prepare and communicate our wishes to our loved ones so they don't have to fight and argue and in a lot of cases tear families apart. 

[00:41:01] Kim: So it's an act of love. I really believe preparing for death is an act of love. I'm doing as an act of love for my grandchildren and my children. I want them to be ready.

[00:41:09] We talk about their pop up all the time, but I want them to talk about me in a positive way. The basic thing I'd like them to remember, there's a Dr. Seuss quote. It's my favorite Dr. Seuss quote and it's When they think about my life, I want them to think, don't cry because it's over, be happy because it happened.

[00:41:25] That's how I'd like them to think of my life. Yes. 

[00:41:28] Jill: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. I appreciate 

[00:41:32] Kim: you taking the time. Thank you. This has been, this has been really a wonderful experience. Thank you. 

[00:41:37] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Clearly. In next week's episode, I talk with Melanie Hendricks, a first generation British Virgin Islander.

[00:41:48] Who came from a family with deep Jamaican roots. Melanie shares insights into her community's diverse cultural background, blending Christianity with African spirituality. She discusses unique spiritual and cultural traditions like the nine nights. Celebration before funerals, Melanie opens up about her struggles with bipolar disorder, her personal losses and her advocating for mental health awareness through her blog.

[00:42:15] Despite facing traumas like miscarriages and the loss of her child's father, Melanie finds strength in entrepreneurship and motherhood, uncertainties. Join us next week as we explore Melanie's inspiring journey of resilience. Growth and finding purpose in the middle of life's challenges. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting.

[00:42:40] Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show.

[00:42:57] Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes. To subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as the link to my Venmo, if you prefer to make a one time contribution, thank you.

[00:43:18] And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of seeing death clearly.