The Spiritual Journey: From Faith to Fluidity with Eryn Johnson

In this episode, I have a conversation with Eryn Johnson, a Philadelphia-based writer and facilitator, about her journey from a religious upbringing to her current spiritual beliefs. Eryn, whose work has graced publications like Well + Good, Insider, and Tilted House Magazine, brings a unique perspective to her exploration of queerness, mental health, spirituality, and healing.

Eryn's background is rooted in a Southern Baptist Christian environment, where faith played a central role in her life. She shares how growing up with a strong belief in God and a family whose core values were deeply entwined with Christianity profoundly shaped her worldview.

We explore how religious beliefs can be a source of both comfort and anxiety. Eryn shares her journey of transitioning away from her faith, which began during high school she discovered new spiritual practices, such as yoga and tarot, embarking on a path of spiritual exploration.

One key message that emerges from our conversation is the importance of fluidity and openness in Eryn's evolving spirituality. Her current beliefs encompass the idea that individuals return to the universe or energy after death, with potential connections to the energy of ancestors. She believes in souls embarking on a journey, processing, and reflecting on life.

Our discussion sheds light on the complexity of religious upbringing, the transformative power of personal exploration, and the significance of finding one's unique spiritual path. It encourages listeners to reflect on their own beliefs and the meaning they choose to create in their lives.

Eryn also offers facilitation services, specializing in supporting individuals, especially those from religious backgrounds they've shed, in embracing their emotions, connecting with their bodies, and fully embodying themselves. Eryn's training in trauma-informed care, breathwork, yoga, meditation, and energy work equips them to provide valuable support.

For those interested in Eryn's work, they have developed a "religious trauma workbook" available on their website, designed to help individuals reclaim their autonomy from dogmatic religious experiences. Eryn is also available for facilitating breathwork in retreats and groups.

If you'd like to contact Eryn or learn more about their services, you can contact them at erynjohnsonfreelance@gmail.com.

https://joynotes.substack.com/

https://erynjohnson.com/

Transcript

[00:00:00] Eryn: My relationship to spirituality is continuing to evolve and what feels important to me is the openness and fluidity of it. The idea that I want my spiritual practice to be supporting me in being more alive and experiencing more of life and living the life that I want to live here and now.

[00:00:21] Jill: Welcome back to Seeing Death Clearly.

[00:00:24] I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end of life coach. Here on my show, I have conversations with guests that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself. My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true.

[00:00:47] In this episode, I'm joined by Eryn Johnson. Erin is a Philly based writer and podcaster with a focus on queerness, mental health, spirituality, and healing. We talk about her evolving spirituality and her unique journey. Erin shares her background in a strict religious environment that shaped her beliefs about life and death.

[00:01:08] She discusses her exploration of various spiritual practices highlighting the importance of openness and fluidity in her spiritual journey Eryn emphasizes that her spiritual practice is about experiencing more of life in the present moment and living the life She desires the conversation also touches on the mysteries of reincarnation And the uncertainty surrounding what comes after this life.

[00:01:30] Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Erin. I'm so happy to have you here. We've known each other. I say that in quotes for quite a few years now. I think I started listening to your podcast, then figured out you were in Philly. So then I found you on Instagram and kind of stopped you on Instagram a little bit.

[00:01:50] And then I invited you to come to meditation and you came and I did and then you made your way back to the zoom sangha one day and I was like, wait, I know you. So yeah, so that was funny. It's a small world and I feel like as big of a city as Philadelphia is, it's a small city. Like we all, I love that.

[00:02:09] I do too. I 

[00:02:10] Eryn: love Philly. I really do. Me too. Yeah. I love living here. It's so good. Are you from Philly originally? No. I lived in the DC suburbs until I was 14 and then my family moved to Southern Delaware, like near Rehoboth Beach, but the part that's more cornfields than beach. And then yeah, I went to school at so close to Philly, but still in Delaware and then yeah, ended up here.

[00:02:33] Jill: Awesome. Very cool. When you were growing up, did you have any spiritual beliefs? 

[00:02:39] Eryn: I came from a religious background. I grew up going to Southern Baptist Christian churches, quite a few different ones. And yeah, my life was really shaped around a belief in God. And that's like a core core value in my family still is.

[00:02:55] And something that I was really taught to orient around like our lives and our beliefs. And Even, like, the structure of our week was all really shaped around Christianity. And still, like, I, I always say that you can't have a conversation with my mom without God being brought up in some way. Like, it's just, like, that woven in.

[00:03:15] And being outside of it now, it's easy to see. But I was just really in it for a long time. So, yeah, I think. I grew up thinking there was one right spirituality. And I mean, obviously I was explicitly told that, like, I was given books that were about, here's what all the other religions are, and here's why they're wrong.

[00:03:33] They're really not playing around with the one way, one truth, one, one light thing or whatever. So yeah, that was, that's a tiny bit about, do you want me to talk more about it or? 

[00:03:45] Jill: Whatever you want. Part of what I am always curious about too, is that growing up, that's where our. Beliefs about everything about ourselves and about life are really shaped and formed.

[00:03:56] And I know most people in our culture when we're growing up, our families don't typically talk to us much about death or dying or grief. It's kind of like pushed off to the side. And in religious households, it's typically like, well, when you die, you're going to go to heaven. So everything's going to be fine unless you're a bad person.

[00:04:13] Then you go to hell and you don't want to go to hell. Like that was my experience of Death when I was a child. Did you have any similar experience? Like, what did your family kind of do around death and dying and grief? 

[00:04:27] Eryn: Yeah, it was definitely like, we don't have to be afraid of dying because we're going to go to heaven because we have Jesus.

[00:04:33] And we need to tell other people about Jesus so that they can also go to heaven when they die. Actually, a lot I feel like about death and dying, but Yeah, there's also this feeling of like, you're not really supposed to be that sad about it, because you have to be happy for the person who's passed, if they're a Christian, and then really sad for them if they're not, and they're going to hell.

[00:04:55] When I was a kid, my grandmother died. I was really young. I think I was like four, maybe five. And I loved her so much. And we all lived in the same town, both sets of grandparents, me, my family. So we saw them all the time. And I have some memories of her, which. Feels kind of surprising because I was so little and lots of general warm feelings and love for her.

[00:05:19] But I remember when she passed, my parents decided that my sister and I, my sister is like a year and a half older than me, so maybe she was six, that we were too young to go to the funeral, so we didn't go to the funeral. And I don't actually remember my parents telling me that she passed. My memory of it is this children's book.

[00:05:43] It was definitely like, here's a book to give to your kids when someone in your family dies, to help them understand. And it was Christian, so it was also about like, now grandma or whoever is with God. And in my memory, my dad, comes in and my sister and I are in our bunk beds and the light is spilling in exactly, but that's not really what happened.

[00:06:02] That was the book. Those were the pictures in the book. I don't know why it's all like tangled up in my memory like that, but I have no memory of being told about her passing or even what it felt like for her to be gone and us to not see her anymore or for her to be in the hospital. She had leukemia, but I remember that book and I remember that we Yeah, I didn't get to go to the funeral and I think maybe we visited her grave later, once or twice, like when I was older, having an experience of death that young was just confusing.

[00:06:36] And it's even confusing for me now to make sense of, but I don't remember there being a whole lot of, of talk about it. I know everyone was devastated, but I don't remember there being a lot of like, even consciously. remembering her or sharing about her. And maybe there was, I don't know, but I don't remember it.

[00:06:56] Jill: Yeah. I am in a similar place where my grandfather died when I was four and kind of had lived almost with him and my grandmother and same thing. I was too young. I couldn't go to the funeral. So it was like grandpa was here and then he was just gone. Yeah. Like there was no talk about what happened. There was no processing.

[00:07:13] There was no anything. We did go visit his grave all the time because of my grandmother that was very much like she goes, or she did go every holiday, we would go to visit my grandfather and her parents and put flowers down and all that. And when I was going through my death doula training and learning about grief and really learning about the unprocessed grief, I realized how much grief I was holding in my body around the loss of my grandfather that I, yeah.

[00:07:41] just never had the space to process it and how much that shaped not just my relationships with men, it actually really shaped my relationships with men because he was the man that it was my life. My father wasn't around. And so I had all of this stuff coming up all of a sudden where I was like, Whoa, this is from when I was four.

[00:08:01] This has all been in my body since I was four. And I never processed it. And that's, I think the biggest reason that I'm really trying to change some of the culture of the way that we talk about death and dying and grief is because it really impacts our entire life if we don't properly grieve everything, right?

[00:08:21] Every loss that we have from childhood on, but especially the loss of our grandparents and people that are close to us. I don't know why a lot of our elders have it in their head that we're too young. Well, I mean, yes, maybe we don't need to see everything that some people see, but in a lot of cultures, it doesn't matter what age you are.

[00:08:39] You're maybe living with your grandparents. They die. They die in the house. They stay in the house. These children see it all. I don't think that that's traumatizing. I think what's traumatizing is the fact that we're told we can't feel sad about something. We can't process it. We don't know how to process it and we just hold it all in there and then it does icky stuff.

[00:08:58] Eryn: Yeah. And then grandma or grandpa or whoever it is is just gone and it's like, wait, where did they go? It makes me think about how when my partner and I pack to go on trips, Quinn likes to let Birdie, one of our cats, see the process happening so Birdie can understand that we're packing and we're leaving and not just be like, wait, where did, like, Why isn't Quinn here?

[00:09:24] But so she can understand, oh, they've gone, and hopefully she has enough memory to know that we're coming back. But it's something like a way of processing to actually understand what's happened.

[00:09:36] Jill: Because some children, especially because they don't understand, then anytime anybody leaves, like my grandfather's in the house, and then he left the house, they took him to the hospital.

[00:09:45] I didn't know that's what was happening. And I'm kind of like you, I have some memory. But not like a lot of memory, but he left and he just never came back. And some people really get deep fear when anybody leaves after that because it's like, well, they're going to leave and they're not going to come back.

[00:10:02] And children don't always know how to vocalize that properly. It's not like they could say, that's what I'm worried about. It's just in them. 

[00:10:10] Eryn: But that makes so much sense. We're learning all these things about how the world works and how people work and what happens. And yeah, I can totally see that. 

[00:10:19] Jill: Do you think that your religious beliefs as a child did comfort you around the idea of dying?

[00:10:24] Eryn: I think they probably did. I don't know if religion gave me anxiety, but either way, I was anxious. And I think I was comforted by the idea of going to heaven and this story that you'd reunite with all of your people and the ones who love God, or which everyone in our family did. So they're all safe.

[00:10:47] They're in heaven and you'll get to see them again. And like, they're having a great time and they're really happy. But I think the flip side of that was I remember laying in bed, staring up at the top of the bunk bed above my head and Like, repeating to myself over and over again, the prayer that you're supposed to pray to bring Jesus into your heart, become a Christian, and then you get to go to heaven.

[00:11:09] Because I was so anxious that I would die, and I had been bad, and it hadn't worked, or something had gone wrong, and so I would go to hell. So I think, like, yes and no. I think it was also a really anxious and scary thing. I think I didn't quite trust it, or trust that I was good enough to get it. Because at the same time, I'm also being taught how bad I am.

[00:11:32] The idea is Jesus makes you good and whatever, but I was always worried that something wasn't working or it was going to go wrong and I was just faking it or that I would end up in hell and end up not only dead, but... Suffering and completely separated from everyone that I loved. 

[00:11:50] Jill: Yeah. Cause there's that part of it too, that if you're the only one that goes there and everybody else gets to go to heaven, then you really are suffering.

[00:12:00] Yeah. And I hadn't even thought when you were saying too, about how part of it is trying to almost convert people to Christianity to save their souls. Like that is just so much about our death. It's not even about this life. It's about our death. And I think I knew that in my head that that's why a lot of religions go out and especially Christianity, they tend to like, go out because they're saving souls.

[00:12:24] And I was like, Oh, it's true. It is a lot about death and afterlife of trying to make sure that people get to heaven. I still don't know how they feel about that whole thing. But I think a lot of times it's It's got good intentions, just humans, we tend to not always carry things out in the best way, even with the best intentions, which is unfortunate.

[00:12:47] Eryn: Yeah, I think it does help me when I think about people in my family who still really want me to be a Christian, it helps me to root into that and remember if this is something that they really believe, then of course, like, they're Going to keep holding on to hope that I'm going to be Christian again, because it is coming from a place of love and fear and care and all those things.

[00:13:11] I'm still not okay with it, and I don't want to be converted, but it helps me to sort of remember the place that it's coming from. Makes it a little bit easier to be in a relationship. 

[00:13:22] Jill: When did you leave your faith and go through a transition into what you believe now? 

[00:13:30] Eryn: I was pretty young.

[00:13:31] I stopped really believing at some point in high school. I think I was probably like 16. I don't quite remember, but I was young and I pretended for a few more years because I felt very clear that I could not tell my family that. And it wasn't like I could just be like, oh, I don't want to go to church anymore.

[00:13:51] And they'd be like, okay, sure. It's no. And I don't know if they'll let me go all the way to college. If I tell them it felt like. If I want to be able to not be Christian and to be free from this, then I have to lie for, for a few more years, at least. So I did, and I think I wasn't that spiritually curious for those first few years.

[00:14:13] I was just kind of like, thank God, I don't have to go to church anymore. I can just enjoy all of the bad stuff my parents told me not to do and just have a good time. And I was 18 years old. Then later in college, I started to. Yeah, be curious. And my first space of curiosity was yoga. And I was just like working out at the gym and saw a sign for the classes.

[00:14:38] And I was like, Oh, yeah, I've heard of yoga. I'm curious about it. I think I'll go. And I did. And I really loved it. It felt really good. And it was a totally different way of moving than I was used to. And It was a way of moving that felt and breathing like the breath part of it was so huge like it made me Yeah, it made me feel connected to my body and to myself and it made me feel more peaceful And so I really loved it and I got super into yoga and ended up doing yoga teacher training and all that stuff and I think for a while that really shaped my spiritual beliefs.

[00:15:13] That wasn't quite it either. I just started exploring tarot and breathwork and some buddhism and other ways of thinking and relating to spirituality. Yeah, witchcraft, a lot of different things. And I think now, like, there isn't even really one thing I believe, I think, My relationship to spirituality is continuing to evolve and really has over the past couple of years, too.

[00:15:38] But I think what feels important to me is the openness and fluidity of it. The idea that I want my spiritual practice to be Supporting me in being more alive and experiencing more of life and living, living the life that I want to live here and now. And so much in Christianity is about living how you want to live when you die.

[00:16:02] It's like sacrificing pleasure, living by these rules, all of that stuff, so that you can have paradise after you die, and I don't believe in that. It feels important that spirituality helps me be more alive here, and I don't know what happens when you die. 

[00:16:20] Jill: I don't know either, and I'm okay not knowing. I really think I'm okay not knowing, but I do love talking about it and thinking about it.

[00:16:28] What's your gut feelings? Like, what do you think happens when we die. If you really tapped into that inner wisdom, what is it telling you?

[00:16:38] Eryn:  I might believe that we just return to source or energy or something, just become part of the universe and like stars and trees and I don't know. And then sometimes But I also feel like I have really connected with at least the energy of my ancestors which makes me feel like maybe there is a little more differentiation of like individual souls or spirits.

[00:17:02] Maybe there's not. Maybe there's like a journey that I also like to think that our souls get to go on a little journey of, like, processing and, you know, like, trying to right wrongs and reflecting on life and what we did when we were here and all that kind of stuff. Being able to be present for the people we love who are still here.

[00:17:21] But I think at some point I do think we go back to stars and trees and ocean and all of that. I don't know, what do you think? I'm curious. 

[00:17:28] Jill: I know, right? Like, There's definitely a lot of different beliefs kind of that float around in me that I think are kind of similar to yours, where I do feel that the soul, the energy that is like the light inside of me, right?

[00:17:43] The me that makes me, me without the names and the body and all that, that it could just disappear. I'm not completely oppose the idea that maybe when I die, maybe this is it. Maybe this energy, like, it can't be destroyed, but maybe it just completely dissipates and breaks apart and becomes part of everything.

[00:18:01] That's possible. Maybe we do like that reincarnation idea of, like, maybe this parts of us do come back for multiple lives to have these different experiences. That's totally possible. I don't know if I like that idea because part of me is like, I don't want to do this. Again, and again, and again, and again, even though if that is what happens, I don't remember what happened before.

[00:18:24] So why would I really care if I do it again? So I don't know about that. I sometimes, especially now that I have children, if there is any possible way that I could stick around, even just for a generation or two, I totally would because I just want to be here with them. And I want to... be able to even just gently guide them maybe into making good decisions.

[00:18:46] I want to see what they're doing. I don't want to miss out on their life. So if I have any possible way that I can stick around for a generation or two, 100 percent I would do it. I do feel sometimes that there is a connection to, and this is where I don't always. No, and I haven't really talked to anybody about it.

[00:19:06] I'm hoping that maybe someday I'll find somebody that has more insight to it Is that sometimes I feel a connection to my ancestors meaning like my grandfather and my grandmother's family and the people that are like bodily my ancestors. But then there's times when I grew up in South Jersey and there's certain places that I go to in South Jersey, especially when I'm out in certain types of the woods out here, like the Pine Barrens.

[00:19:35] Where I'm like, I've been here many, many, many times. This is going back a long time, way longer than my physical body family has ever lived here. And of course, there was Native people that lived here before us. It's not like it was the white people that were the first ones to be here. And so then I wonder about that too, where I'm like, Maybe part of our ancestors is also these spiritual ancestors.

[00:20:00] It's not that they're related at all to this physical life of mine. That may be part of what makes me, me part of this soul was born into this body here. But it's not necessarily, cause you know, my family's all from Europe. They're from Ireland and Ukraine and England, but maybe part of my soul is. It's really made up of peoples that have lived here way before white folks were around.

[00:20:26] Because there's really just this feeling of remembering is the only way that I could describe it. And I've tried actually having this conversation where I'm like, it's not deja vu. It's remembering and it's a different feeling where it's almost like I remember the feeling of something. It's not that I'm remembering like the situation, like I remember that person was here, like déjà vu would be.

[00:20:49] It's a very strange feeling and I don't know what it is. That's so interesting. 

[00:20:52] Eryn: Yeah, I think I felt a little bit of that feeling last summer, two summers ago, whenever that was, when I did that ritual that I was telling you about, where we went to that river, where my, I know my family had tried to cross and I have no idea where it was.

[00:21:08] It's a river, like there's a lot, but we stopped when it felt right. And when we were there, I really felt that kind of sense that you're talking about. So I don't know, I don't really have any insight, but I'm curious.  

[00:21:20] Jill: Yeah, exactly. I'm curious about all of it. I love to think about it. I love to talk about it.

[00:21:26] I am okay not knowing either way. And again, no matter how many people I talk to about it, nobody's going to know for sure the real answer. I mean, maybe when we die, we'll find out or we won't. Maybe we'll just go out like a light bulb and that'll be the end of it. And I think I'm okay with that as well.

[00:21:46] Sometimes, honestly, I feel like I am more okay with that idea than Reincarnation or the idea of heaven and hell. That's what I was raised with as well. Being Catholic, I was raised with the idea of if you're a good person, you go to heaven. If you're a bad person, you go to hell. If you're an okay person, you end up in purgatory until you could maybe work your way out and then you could go to heaven.

[00:22:06] Right. But I don't think I ever really believed that. Like, I don't ever remember a time of, like, fully believing that. If anything, it was more just fear. It produced some anxiety and some fear because there was a lot of this, I'll never be good enough to get to heaven. Like, if I'm lucky, I'll get to purgatory.

[00:22:24] And then maybe I could work my way out. But I don't know. Because again, I've read things and I've talked to people that they'll say, But if sometimes when people have near death experiences, or even like when people take drugs to kind of have these experiences of like, kind of like popping out into this like other place that maybe this other place is a different realm or a different plane or a different planet.

[00:22:47] And we just Named it heaven in certain areas, and maybe there's other places where we could end up going that could be terrifying and painful and scary. And so then we named that hell. I hope I don't end up in a place that looks like hell, sounds terrible, but I don't know if I believe in the idea of like the things that I was taught would send me to hell or actually the things that would send me to hell anyway.

[00:23:16] You know, like there's a lot of things that I do and have done in my life that a lot of religious people would say would probably send me to hell, but I don't believe that that's true because I feel like in my life I'm trying to be open and honest with everybody around me about everything so that I'm not causing pain and suffering more than I need to, right?

[00:23:38] I mean, part of being a human is. We're unfortunately going to interact with people and it's going to cause some pain and suffering. But I try to be a good person. I try not to hurt people. But again, some of the things that I do, according to other people, that would not be appropriate. It would send me to hell.

[00:23:53] So I'm like, I don't, I don't know. 

[00:23:55] Eryn: Yeah, totally same. I think what's important to me is living within an integrity with my own values and what's important to me and not by like some, the definitions I was given of what it means to be a good person and what those values are and those rules are. I'm like, I'm not doing that.

[00:24:14] I don't believe it. And I don't know if it's true and I'm wrong. I feel, I feel like it was worth it. Like, I'm not sorry either way, I think. But yeah, I think it has to be about what am I going to be able to sleep with at night? What being in integrity with How I want to move through the world. I think that's beautiful.

[00:24:34] Trying to be as open and honest as you can and not causing more pain than you need to. I value those things too. And when I think about the idea of reincarnation, I think I used to really, that used to really resonate. And I caught myself one time thinking, like, when I was really unhappy in a relationship, like, in another, like, this is just gonna be what it is, this is just gonna be how it is, and maybe in another lifetime I'll have the kind of love I really want.

[00:25:04] And then I was like, oh my god, that's nuts. I'm not gonna, not that the idea of reincarnation is nuts, but that I would do that. I was like, absolutely not. And I had to change so much based on that. But I think it's a little bit scary that I felt myself get caught in that and be like, nothing else is promised.

[00:25:23] Even the rest of this life is not either. Like, who knows? And I'm not okay with being like, maybe next time, like I'm here now, you know? 

[00:25:32] Jill: Yeah. And that's, I guess, too, where sometimes I'm not sure as much as I try to read and learn and understand and talk to people about things with reincarnation. I guess the idea is that we get to that point where we get to make the choice, or we keep repeating the same cycles when we just kind of don't make different decisions, when we don't make the changes that we need to make.

[00:25:54] I'm not an expert in reincarnation, but from some of what I've learned and understand is that if you would have just kind of said that and been like, well, it is what it is, then yes, you would have kept repeating the same cycle lifetime after lifetime. Where you were like, maybe I don't want to do it like this anymore.

[00:26:11] And so that's how we kind of, I guess, like heal our karma or again, I don't know. I'm not the expert on any of that. There's definitely times when throughout my life. For me, a lot of it, again, is like repeating cycles. And a lot of it, I think, comes from wounding from when I was a child, especially around men, where I was like repeating cycles over and over and over again until finally I was like, no, no, I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:26:38] This doesn't make sense. Who knows? Maybe that is a pattern that I've repeated throughout many lives. Or even at one point, I remember thinking, When I first started getting into yoga, my yoga teacher that eventually I did do yoga teacher training with, he was kind of like, have you ever done yoga before?

[00:26:55] And I did like maybe three classes before this at the gym. And he was like, you must've been a yogi in a past life because you're naturally doing all of the poses really well. Like it's just coming to you. And I was like, well, I don't know what this guy is talking about, the reincarnation, but that kind of set me down this path of thinking.

[00:27:13] Okay. So maybe if there was past lives, maybe in a past life, I was a man that was really shitty. Like maybe this is me feeling what it feels like to be on the receiving end. Honestly, right after that experience, when I started kind of working through some of it, then that's when my husband and I connected.

[00:27:33] Well, we've been together now for. See, I was 20 and then I'm 44, so like a really long time now we've been together and it really did something in me did heal and did shift and did change when I was kind of like, Oh, like you were this in the past and now. You know what it feels like, and it doesn't feel good, so like.

[00:27:56] It doesn't feel good. Oh, and I thought that was interesting, and again, maybe it's all in my head, like maybe it was just some story my brain needed to work through, but whatever it was, it healed the part of me that needed to heal to be able to like show up and have a healthy relationship. And up until that point, I was not able to do it.

[00:28:17] So I had even at 21 had decided I will be by myself for the rest of my life. I would rather do that than deal with all this other stuff. And so that was my alternative. I'm an old maid at 21 because you know, I was able to heal it. And now I've got my wonderful husband and I have a partner and our life is definitely not.

[00:28:37] Normal in quotes, but it works for us and I feel very loved and supported and I feel very lucky and grateful to have that. But I had to heal something or else I was going through the cycles where people are like, I don't know why I always attract the same people. It always turns out the same way, you know, I don't know why either, but it was definitely happening and I had to heal it.

[00:28:59] So I don't know, maybe it is past life stuff. I'm not sure. 

[00:29:02] Eryn: Well, I think we get to choose the meaning that we make because, like, exactly, we don't know. So, like, if that's a story that was helpful for you to tell and it helped you heal and break that pattern, like, beautiful. I love it. It's so interesting and fun to talk about, but I think it also doesn't matter.

[00:29:18] If it supports it, that's great. If it's not, like, let's think of a new way of relating to these ideas. I think of the South Node and North Node and astrology around this stuff, too, where I think the South Node is supposed to be things that you're bringing into this life with you, and people think about it in different ways.

[00:29:39] For some people that is about past lives, for some people that's about just your innate personality, like who you are, and the North Node being what you. Integrate from the South Node to move more towards, and mine's in Taurus, and my North Node's, my South Node's in Taurus, my North Node's in Scorpio, and it feels like a move from, like, this stability and safety and very physical and material security to transformation and dying continually and those kinds of Scorpio themes, and I mean, who knows, but that's a story that I feel serves me, and I like thinking about that because it feels true so far.

[00:30:17] Jill: Yeah, and that's astrology I find interesting. I don't know a lot about it. I kind of focused more of my energy on tarot and that realm of things, but I do find it interesting. This is kind of what makes me think now about like reincarnation of our soul choosing to be born at a certain time in history, a certain time in the calendar so that we can have, I don't know, certain traits.

[00:30:42] It's about us or certain experiences and I don't know, cause I am a Libra and in a lot of ways I am very much my sign. I'm very balanced. I try to keep the peace, but I'm also kind of indecisive and yes, maybe some of that is because I've been telling myself since I learned about what my sign is and what its traits are, maybe, but some of it is just that it really is.

[00:31:06] It's within me where I really wouldn't say I'm a people pleaser, even though I had somebody say that to me once where I was like, I don't think that's true. I think what it is is that I'm also very much like, I'm just here for the experience. So if you want to kind of do this thing, okay, let's kind of do that thing.

[00:31:25] It's not that I'm like people pleasing, but it's just that I'm kind of, I rather. just kind of go with the flow that's comfortable, keeping that peace, keeping that balance, then getting my way, getting what I want. Because in the long run, what I want is just to be like, comfortable and happy and going with the flow.

[00:31:41] It's interesting. It's one of those things where one of these days, maybe I'll learn more, but there's so much to learn. 

[00:31:47] Eryn:There's so much to learn. Yeah. I think at this point, I'm not interested in learning that much more about astrology, but I'm interested in learning more about Buddhism. And yeah, I think the sangha, which I go to sort of sporadically, but do really like, is really powerful.

[00:32:05] And reading Pema Chodron's books, I feel like there's so much wisdom around living and dying in those books. That really feels like an anchor, like if I'm going through a really anxious time, I'm reading Pema to get some perspective. I think that's where my curiosity lies at this moment. 

[00:32:23] Jill: I think the same for me.

[00:32:25] When I started going to Monday Night Sangha, it's more of a relaxed kind of Buddhism where all are welcome to kind of learn and grow. But then I did start to attend more events. through the center and really dive in deeper. And it was during one Monday Night Sangha when we were reading out of one of the books.

[00:32:44] And it was kind of like, it doesn't matter which path you choose, you just have to choose a path. And it was like, for some reason that night when I heard it, I was like, All right. You're right. I think I'm going to take my vows. And that's the thing that I do find that I like about Buddhism, which actually it was almost exactly a year ago.

[00:33:02] It was a year ago yesterday that I took my vows. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. When you're taking your vows, I'm not vowing to Buddha. I'm vowing to myself that I'm going to lean into the Sangha, that I'm going to lean into the teachings, that I'm going to lean into what the Buddha has said in order to stick down this path.

[00:33:21] And there's so much to learn. I've read the different books. And of course I have like lots of conversations with people that know way more than I do about it. But I do love Buddhism's kind of awareness of death. It just, it feels, yeah, it just feels like out of anything I've ever learned and studied, Buddhism definitely seems to resonate the most with me and what feels right in my body and in my mind and in my heart.

[00:33:48] And. Yeah. And there's a lot to learn. So I'm with you. Yeah. There definitely is. When I meet my moment of death, I really do hope that my meditation practice helps me meet it with less fear and less anxiety. I genuinely now, when I sit down and I meditate, that is part of my intention is to prepare myself for the fact that I am going to die one day.

[00:34:13] And actually one of the things that I have my like little altar space is kind of right behind here on two different sides. It says the, the entire universe was created just for me. And then also I am nothing but dust and ashes. So that like, as I'm meditating, sometimes I'll like read those just to remind myself that, yeah, I am here in this space.

[00:34:33] I am creating for myself. But in the long run, Both things are real, right? Both things, if you really, I don't know, I guess this is some quantum physics stuff, also some spirituality stuff, but like, both things are real and they're both happening at the same time. So at the same time, yes, I'm here and I've created this life for myself, but I'm also already dust and ashes.

[00:34:53] This body is, It's not going to be here way longer than it was here. So, I don't know. I like to think about it and thankfully, now I'm at a point where I don't think I ever had death anxiety. I think actually in some ways, I almost looked forward to dying to like, not wanting this life to end yet, but also kind of being like, I'm really glad that it's going to at some point where now I don't feel that way now.

[00:35:21] Actually, if anything, my awareness of how quickly life will go by really has made me appreciate it so much more. So I don't have that feeling anymore, but I also don't have fear or anxiety. But I think it's also because in my head, I always see myself being old. I see myself being like 90 something, not see something.

[00:35:42] So I don't know if I would meet it with the same level of peace and calm if it was happening now. And it could happen any day. 

[00:35:52] Eryn: I love those two phrases that you have on your altar. It makes me think about when I've been in the most times of, or the times of the most anxiety and pain and fear and hurt and grief.

[00:36:06] Looking at the stars always makes it better. And I think it's for that reason, it's like that perspective of how when everything feels so significant and so huge at the same time, it's looking up, it's not significant literally at all. And like both are true and somewhere in the middle is true and something about that feels really healing and really helpful in those times where I'm like, and when, yeah, when pain is really big and really huge. 

[00:36:35] Jill: Perspectives can definitely help that looking at the stars and realizing how small we actually are. My one little tiny person is really small in comparison to everything else. And that also doesn't mean that What we're feeling and what we're experiencing isn't valid though either. Right.

[00:36:57] It's all important and also it doesn't really matter. There's obviously some things that matter more than others, but we really do as humans get so caught up on something that somebody said to us can just stick with us for days. weeks, months, years. I can still remember things that people said to me years ago that maybe hurt my feelings and made me feel bad about myself or whatever else.

[00:37:24] And why? Why? In the long run, it doesn't matter. 

[00:37:29] Eryn: It's so real. I think it also just makes me think about how I feel. Such a strong responsibility to just live, like, to myself, like, responsibility to myself to just live this life that I have and have been given, and not to miss out or put off or wait until the next go around, because...

[00:37:50] Yeah, I don't know. And have another go around.

[00:37:53] Jill: And even if we do do this again, with the same souls, right, the same soul family, whatever, it's still not like Jill and Eryn, it's still not Jill and StePhen, it's still not Eryn and Quinn, it's not going to be the same configuaration, it's not going to be the same thing.

[00:38:10] So why not experience what you can and have gratitude and joy and love and like really appreciate All of it, even if we get to do it all over again, I want to really appreciate what I have now, even though it's not perfect, even though there's that voice in my head, but you're not making any money at your business and you don't have this and you don't have, it's like, shut up, shut up.

[00:38:30] None of that matters. I have a house. I have food. I have healthy children and also realizing that that could change at any moment that could go away at any moment. I mean, we could lose the house. I could lose everything. I could lose my entire family to an accident. Like knowing that again, both of those things are real.

[00:38:48] The entire universe is here, but also it's dust and ashes. Like, yeah, it allows me though, to really live that Buddhist idea of living in the like, just be here. Now, because here now, everything's perfect. Everything's great. There's nothing I could want for, there's nothing I need that I don't have in this moment.

[00:39:09] And if I can try to really remember that in every moment, and it is harder when it's a negative moment. Maybe if you're fighting with somebody or you're in pain, like, yes, that's harder. But also I think realizing that it's just for that moment. that it will change, it will shift. It's okay, but we just gotta, we gotta live our lives and feel it all and be here because one day it's not gonna be here.

[00:39:35] Yeah, that's the thing. Awesome. Tell us about your podcast and any like offerings that you have, anything that you want to tell people about.

[00:39:43] Eryn: Yeah, I think the main thing I'm doing right now is my Substack, which is just writing. It's called JoyNotes, joynotes.substack.com. And I have a podcast called Living Open, which Jill was on and that episode will be coming out as well.

[00:40:01] And that's just on my website, erynjohnson.com. It's been going for a long time and it's conversations about All kinds of things, healing and curiosity and grief and feelings and creativity and a whole, whole wide spectrum of stuff. Yeah, I think, I think that's pretty much it.

[00:40:20] Jill: Awesome. Yeah. And I'll put the links in the show notes, but I do love your podcast.

[00:40:25] Again, you know, I might not listen as much now, but there was a period of time when I did, I listened to it. all the time. It was very regular playing in my minivan when I was driving around places. And it really, right. It's, it's so interesting that we have these moments in people's lives and we don't always even realize it.

[00:40:45] But, but I do, I love your podcast and it, it really did help to help me to heal through a period in my life that helped to shape me and help to allow me to like, Be okay being me, and like, be okay being the weird me, like, the whole thing. So yeah, so I love your podcast, so definitely people, go check it out, it's a great podcast, but.

[00:41:06] Thank you so much for that. You're welcome. Thank you. Again, you know, you're the, you're creating, you're putting it out into the world, and I know. Especially now how that can be challenging. It's important. And I do. I love your podcast. So thank you. Thank you. 

[00:41:20] Eryn: And thanks for having me. 

[00:41:23] Jill: Well, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time.

[00:41:26] Eryn: Of course. Of course. I'm so glad to.

[00:41:27] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of seeing death clearly. My guest next week is Deb Driscoll. Deb is an author, spiritual teacher, and speaker who shares her transformative journey from a heartbreaking loss to discovering big life magic. Deb's story centers around the sudden death of her 10 year old son, Sage.

[00:41:49] She tells about the devastating experience of losing Sage and how it shattered her world, but how it also was the catalyst for personal growth. Deb describes her surrender to the divine and her early calling to write a book that extended beyond her own healing. Her book's purpose was to create a safe space for readers to reflect on their own encounters with grief and loss.

[00:42:12] Tune in next week to hear more about Deb's journey. The impact of her book and the role of confronting grief and death and finding a sense of wholeness. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated.

[00:42:29] Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast. platform and leaving a five star review. Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free.

[00:42:46] Whether your donation is large or small, every amount. is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can. You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one time contribution.

[00:43:03] Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.