Grief, Self-Discovery, and Healing with Tony Lynch

In this podcast episode, I'm joined by Tony Lynch, the founder of The Global Grief Network, a worldwide community of grief workers, mental health practitioners, and coaches. This community is all about raising awareness, sharing knowledge, and providing support to each other.

During our conversation, Tony shares his personal journey of spiritual growth, self-acceptance, and self-discovery, all while facing the challenges of grief. We delve into the importance of self-reflection, understanding the origins of our habits, and the crucial process of addressing trauma and mental health issues.

Tony embraces diverse backgrounds and beliefs, promoting acceptance. He emphasizes the value of learning from others, regardless of their beliefs, and suggests that incorporating positive aspects from various belief systems can make us more enlightened individuals.

Tony advocates for everyone to embark on a journey of self-discovery. Over time, we accumulate habits from our surroundings that may no longer serve us as we grow older. Digging deep within ourselves helps us understand why certain habits no longer work and allows for personal growth.

Addressing trauma, PTSD, and mental health issues is essential, and it's never too late to heal and grow. This process has provided Tony with a better understanding of his past, present, and future.

Tony's work with men, helping them break free from mental struggles and witnessing their healing process, brings him immense joy. This work fills his heart with gratitude, making him both personally and altruistically fulfilled.

https://www.facebook.com/griefsupportformen

Fb- The Global Grief Network https://www.facebook.com/groups/695890305913338

Ig- https://www.instagram.com/mensgriefsupport/

Linkedin- https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-lynch-8035b6173/

LinkedIn group - https://www.linkedin.com/groups/14250521/

Podcast host - Grief Let’s Talk About It podcast -YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/@griefletstalkaboutit/videos

#1 international Amazon best-selling Author - Relentless -Stories of Overcoming Adversity

Transcript

[00:00:00] Tony: There's years and years and years that I had to go back in and actually start to heal and repair myself because I'm not broken. I was hurt. 

[00:00:08] Jill: Welcome back to seeing death clearly. I'm your host, Jill McClennen, a death doula and end-of-life coach here on my show. I have conversations with guests. that explore the topics of death, dying, grief, and life itself.

[00:00:21] My goal is to create a space where you can challenge the ideas you might already have about these subjects. I want to encourage you to open your mind and consider perspectives beyond what you may currently believe to be true. In this episode, my guest is Tony Lynch. Tony takes us on an intimate journey through his own path of spiritual growth, self-acceptance, and self-discovery while navigating the challenges of grief.

[00:00:45] We talk about the importance of self-reflection. uncovering the origin of our habits and the vital process of addressing trauma and mental health issues. Thank you for joining us for this conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Tony. Thank you for coming on today. I know we connected on Instagram. You work a lot with grief and we'll definitely talk about that.

[00:01:07] But can you just tell me a little bit about your background, maybe where you came from, how old you are, if you want to share, you of course do not have to. Anything that kind of sets us up for where your beliefs about death, dying, grief, and living life kind of started, and then we'll get to where they're at now.

[00:01:24] Tony: I'm Tony Lynch. I was born in Newport News, Virginia. I am 48 years old. I've been all across the country in different ways. And I grew up Southern Baptist, but I guess you could say my religious beliefs. I'm not a very religious individual. I do believe in God, just not the religion. There was something that just never sat right with me with religion.

[00:01:48] It was always felt like it was a way that kept people apart from one another. And it actually served me well in learning other people's backgrounds and what they believe in. It helped me accept them a lot more growing up. So I was never, I never wanted to be angry with someone because I didn't understand or believe in something that they didn't believe.

[00:02:08] Jill: Yeah, because that happens so often, we don't understand somebody else's background, which leads to fear and anger and hatred and all these really nasty things that are big problems. I think, unfortunately, we're in a period now where that's Coming to light, if not getting worse, hopefully, that means that this is kind of that tipping point where now we can get it all to a head and then hopefully swing down on the other side where we have more love and acceptance and understanding of people that aren't like us, because I personally believe that one of the great things about life is that there is a variety of people and beliefs, even if I don't always agree with people, I think to myself how bored I would be if everybody looked like me, talked like me, believed the same as me, act right.

[00:02:57] That would be really boring. 

[00:02:59] Tony: That would be, imagine a conversation around that. So I was in there. Oh, I need a different change of pace here. Having so many people who believe in so many different things is an opportunity for one for us to learn and two, for us to grow in a place of acceptance, right? And, and to be able to have empathy for one another.

[00:03:19] Because of our belief systems or what we don't believe, right? You know, and I think that's the that's the beautiful part about this world, is that if we welcome that space to be able to accept one another, it can be a beautiful, beautiful journey as you go through it, right? Because what if you don't believe in any, well, what if you believe in something that's not working for you?

[00:03:40] You can latch onto someone else's beliefs. Until you can develop your own. 

[00:03:46] Jill: Yeah, that's an interesting point, actually, that I didn't really think of how many of us, we don't even always realize it. We know that we're not happy. We know that we're not functioning maybe to the best of our abilities. We're not as great of partners and parents and all these other things that.

[00:04:03] We want to be, and we don't always know why. And that's kind of this opportunity to say, whatever I'm doing, isn't working. So let me go out and find out what other people are doing. Maybe it works for them. Maybe it's not going to work for me, but giving ourselves this opportunity to meet people and talk to people and learn what works for them.

[00:04:22] If nothing else just shows us other ways to do things, to try things and to learn what works for us. I love that. That was a really. Great point that you brought up. And I hadn't really thought of that, but that's what happened to me. Right. But like things weren't working. I knew they weren't working. And so I went out and that's when I started really getting into meditation and really learning about Buddhism, which was something that I was interested in.

[00:04:47] But I don't know. I grew up Catholic. I felt like Part of me was still very attached to that, even though I didn't practice anymore. And honestly, this is the happiest I've ever been. Once I brought in like regular meditation practice and some different tools that I wouldn't have had if I was like, well, they're different and that's weird.

[00:05:05] And so I'm going to stay where I'm at. So yeah, that was beautiful. Exactly. 

[00:05:11] Tony: I believe that if you could take bits and pieces that work for you from a variety of people, you in turn become a better individual or a more rounded human being in this world. And that's what we need. We need more people who are more rounded, you know, that can extract those things from different, different belief systems and things like that.

[00:05:32] You know, I do yoga. I do have some practices in Buddhism. Right. You know, right? I believe in living in the moment, you know, not rushing things, but understanding what this moment really means to me and being able to take that in, extract the lessons from it, extract the beauty from it, and be able to fill myself with gratitude.

[00:05:53] Right. And then I could take something from Christianity, you know, as far as the faith, you know, I have deep-rooted faith in what I believe in. And, you know, just whole different other things like that, you know, and then you can take the stuff that doesn’t work and kind of don't work for me. Right. And you kind of, you kind of start to grow into something different, you know, into your own individual self, if, if you want it.

[00:06:17] If you want it, there can be a lot of peace in it, but there can also be a lot of chaos. And it is what you do in those moments. Yes. 

[00:06:24] Jill: Cause yeah, when we start to really look at ourselves, we don't always see things that are pleasant, right? There are things within us that sometimes when we take that look inside, it's like, Oh, Oh yeah, I don't like that.

[00:06:39] I don't want to be that. I don't want to act that way. We need to look within and see those things, but it can be scary. I know for me sometimes, you know, they'll be like the shame and the guilt and like the really just yucky emotions that come up with looking within and it's not latching onto them. It's allowing them to kind of surface and see it for what it is and then saying, okay, thank you for teaching me a lesson.

[00:07:06] Of what I don't want to do anymore. How I don't want to behave anymore and allowing it to kind of move on. A lot of times we get so resistant to the things that don't feel good that then we just do everything we can to push it away. Like, Nope, I don't want to deal with it because it hurts. It's painful to look at.

[00:07:24] So I'm just going to stay stuck and keep that on the other side, which is unfortunate. I don't think that's. the way it has to be. 

[00:07:32] Tony: Well, it doesn't have to be that way. I do think it's a, a journey that everyone should take, you know, because over throughout the years, what ends up happening is that we pick up habits from other people.

[00:07:44] And so then we implement those habits into our lives. And as we started to get older, they don't work for us anymore. Right? So going deep inside of yourself. Helps you understand why, as you said before, why isn't this working, right? Who does this belong to? And then you can begin to go, okay, well, I don't like this.

[00:08:04] Well, why don't I like this? See, it's all about having a curious mind and willing to dive into it. Okay. Why don't I like this? Oh, it's because this makes me feel this way. Okay. Well, why does it make me feel this way? Right. So it's getting down to the root cause of who you actually is. as an individual. And once you can develop your own habits, things that, things that you've been taught when you was a, when you was younger that worked for you, that still work for you now.

[00:08:30] And you can get rid of those habits that are not yours. Then you can stand in front of the mirror and go. I'm like the person I see, I've done the work, right? And that comes with unraveling the trauma that you go through, you know, um, the PTSD and mental health issues and things like that. Cause a lot of people do not realize that all of these things are associated with one another.

[00:08:50] And if you allow it to power up, say for instance, I'm 48 years old, I'll be 49 in the next couple of months. When I got into the field of grief, it dawned on me out of all of my 40 some years, Of all of these things happening, I only decided to start to work on it that one time. So there's years and years and years that I had to go back in and actually start to heal and repair myself.

[00:09:15] Because I'm not broken, I was hurt. Once I started working on one section of it, I was like, Oh, I started feeling a little bit better. Right. I started to extract those things and be been able to walk with myself in a backward forward motion. And what I mean by that is I was able to go through my childhood and walk with that child up until adulthood and I became who I am today.

[00:09:36] And with a better understanding and in a lot of places, a good head on my shoulders. Now we're not going to talk to my friends. They may tell you that I'm crazy, but that's okay too. Yeah. They probably be really honest with you. I couldn't tell you what they would tell you. I would hope that they would tell you the truth about me.

[00:09:51] You know, I consider myself to be a pretty decent human being, a very kind, I consider myself very knowledgeable. About a lot of things, especially things that I care about, or as you say, the things that are within my gift. Right? And so I live within that lane. I don't, I don't venture off in other people's lanes.

[00:10:09] That's not for me. I'm not a music guy. I'm not, you know, I'm not an acrobat. I'm not, I don't claim to be. Right. You know, I enjoyed the work of grief. That's what I enjoy. I enjoy working with men because as a man myself, I, the biggest joy for me is watching a man get out of their own head and begin the healing process and watching how their family begins to respond to that individual as they start to heal.

[00:10:35] That is a beautiful thing to me. And so I love that feeling. And I found that out some years ago. That's beautiful. But it's always stayed with me, and that's the reason why I enjoy doing the work, because it makes me feel good, as selfish as it is, and as selfless as it is. It just genuinely fills my heart with gratitude.

[00:10:55] It makes me happy. 

[00:10:56] Jill: That's amazing. How did you get into grief work? Like, what was your doorway into deciding that that was the work you wanted to do?

[00:11:04] Tony: Seven years ago, seven years ago, I lost my son. Oh gosh, I'm sorry. Um, I just celebrated his seven-year anniversary last week, so he passed away right before Father's Day.

[00:11:16] And that was kind of like the beginning journey of me understanding it. And then two years later, as a matter of fact, next month in July, my mother, my mother passed away two years and one month after my son, and that pushed me over the edge. And what it did is that it sent me into such a dark spiral that I had two choices.

[00:11:38] I can either give up, lay down, or let this thing just be done because I was tired. You know, I'm so tired. Or I can lean into it and begin to understand it and see where it took me. Now, it took me a long time to get to that point because in the beginning, it was like I was fighting something that I couldn't see.

[00:11:59] Only thing I can do is feel. And there were days when I wanted to give up, the pain was just too much, right? And then the reality, I lost my child. And then the other reality was, is that now I have no parents. My younger brother is gone. I'm the last of my generation. I'm the last of my bloodline, right? So you begin to think about that, like, I'm an orphan.

[00:12:19] There is nobody else that's coming behind me. I am alone in this world now. Where do I go from here? And as a male, that's a pretty dangerous place to be. You can be around millions of people and still feel alone. Or you can be by yourself and be really alone because you don't know who you are. Your world has changed around, right?

[00:12:39] I don't know what I'm supposed to do anymore. I'm not a son anymore. I'm not a, I'm not a brother anymore, nor am I a father. So what is my role now in this world? I don't know. So I have to wander around. I have to try to figure this thing out. But what happens when you can't figure out, you don't have any sort of direction.

[00:12:57] A lot of times men, we suffer in silence till we get tired. And then we make the decision to stop being tired. And we just wanted to stop. I was that guy. I wanted to stop. I wanted the pain to stop. I wanted the thoughts to stop. I wanted, I wanted nothing else to do with this world. I really did. I wanted nothing.

[00:13:17] I wanted to run away and go into a cave somewhere and just be left alone until I die. Or I wanted to die. And just be done. And I came real close to that. And that, the night where I planned out, well, the time where I planned out my suicide, I planned out taking my life. And it took me two and a half months of moving people around and things like that.

[00:13:38] And they were pretty upset when I, when I told them what I did, but I don't regret doing it. Because in that moment when the pain was so great and I just wanted to end it, something else happened. Something said, Hey, think about what you're about to do. You know, like life doesn't have to stop right here.

[00:13:57] It doesn't have to stop. And I'm thinking to myself, like, well, who are you talking to? You know, do you have these conversations with yourself? Or in my case, you know, I, I like to say I was speaking with God and God said, no, no, no. Before you do this, there's a silver lining. How's this a silver lining? What am I supposed to do?

[00:14:13] I'm empty. I'm numb. I don't, all I feel is pain now. He says, well, you may feel pain, but there's something on the other side of it. And I began to explore it. And what it did, it opened me up. It cracked me all the way open and said, read this. And so I had questions. Well, what about this? When I was six and this happened, that wasn't about you.

[00:14:35] Well, what about when I was molested? When I was, that wasn't about you. What about when, when I got shot, that wasn't, what about the game that wasn't about you? Nothing was about me. And I was going, but I'm the one who had to go through it. Right. You know, being in the games, going to prison, being shot, all of these different things.

[00:14:50] And then it says, no, it wasn't about you. Cause if it was. Had you not experienced this, you wouldn't be able to talk to this guy over here. If you had not experienced this, you wouldn't have been able to talk to these children over here about doing this. If you had not experienced this, you would not have the knowledge about this right here.

[00:15:07] All of these different things had combined inside of me, and that's where I began the journey of that long climb out of that dark hole. Because what I realized is that I was waiting for someone to come and rescue me. Right. And no one did. I somehow got the strength to start taking the dirt that I felt that that life was thrown over top of me and began to use it as, as filler.

[00:15:31] And I began to climb on top of that dirt until I got to the top. And once I got to the top, I was going, Whoa, whoa, that's crazy. You know, and then I began to look at the lessons. And then I appreciated the blessings that came with it. And that's how I got into the work. I was like, I want to connect with more men like myself.

[00:15:51] I didn't know I was going to be in this work. I wanted to connect with them to see what they did in order to get through the things that they were going through and how did they function in society. And what ended up happening is that I ended up being the guy that most of these men came to. And so I was like, Whoa, you know, like you've been doing this a lot longer than me.

[00:16:12] They were like, yeah, but what you've said the other day really, really resonated with me. And I just want to talk to you about this. So I started using that and I started a nonprofit, which is members of us. And I've been dedicated to help a man heal through the grieving process. Since then got into podcasting, started another organization, a global grief network, because We talk about grief being a lonely road, but no one ever talks about the grief workers.

[00:16:39] See, grief work is lonely as well. So I wanted to create a place for grief workers to come together, be supported, create opportunities for collaboration, and become a bigger resource throughout our communities throughout the world. And I've been, I've stayed steady to it ever since then. So I've been doing it now for four years, and I have not done anything else except for that. 

[00:17:02] Jill: Such beautiful work, and it is very important. And thank you for sharing your story with us. There was a lot of real vulnerable stuff in there, and in this type of work, we have to be real and vulnerable. Yes, we do. You know, and that's why it is so hard. And that's why it can be so lonely because it does feel like we're showing up in the world differently than the people around us because we're like, Hey, I'm here for the painful stuff, give me the pain.

[00:17:32] Other people are like, wait, what do you do? Why? Why do you do this work? But it, I think for those of us that do it, it just, it calls to us. This is the way that we want to show up. And I love that you're, you know, working with men that have grief, that they're just not, you know, society in general doesn't allow us.

[00:17:53] To really process our grief, to talk about our grief, to honor how many things we're grieving that aren't just major deaths, but especially men, men are just taught to be, you know, you have to be strong and you have to show up this way. And it, it's not healthy for any of us, right. For, especially, you know, even as women, you know, to interact with men that are holding so much grief and so much pain, it can be really dangerous for women. And it's not that there's anything wrong with these men. Like that's the thing as well. You know, I think we view people as good or bad that they're broken or they're not broken, you know, all these different things when really I think at the root of all of it, we're all scared. We're all damaged and hurt by others.

[00:18:40] And then that Kind of bleeds out onto the people around us when we don't even mean for it to it's just our fear and our pain. And like you said, PTSD and trauma and all these things that we're holding inside, they're going to come out in ways that we don't always want them to come out. And it ends up hurting people around us. And yeah, that's beautiful work. 

[00:19:03] Tony: I like what you said. And I just want to add to it. We're broken can be a deadly word. And what I mean by that is that we're human beings, right? You cannot break a human being. You can break things. Now, if you fill a person's head up with, you know, you're broken and things like that, they sometimes don't search for the pathways to healing. Now, if you can get a person to admit that they are hurt, it kind of changes the dynamic that they walk in. They begin to hold themselves accountable for their actions because now they have to admit, I'm hurt. Hurt people hurt people, you know, and it's, it's held true throughout the ages.

[00:19:40] Hurt people hurt people, especially men. When you think about their daily life, a day in the life of a male, Right? We get up, we go to work, we take on whatever the boss says to us, we deal with the life stresses, not even, you know, not, not, not just including the job, but we thinking about home, we thinking about the bills, we thinking about the food on the table, how am I going to provide what, you know, something was to happen, you know, I have to be a protector, all of these different things, but yet when we need it the most, we don't know how to talk because There's a lot of stigmas that goes around it, right?

[00:20:20] If I say something, you know, my family might think I'm weak. I can't talk to my friends because my friends don't want to hear what I have to say, right? I, I, I want to, I want to talk to someone, but no one cares about what's going on with me. It's, it's that, it's that old saying, men will only buy you from what we provide, what we, what we bring to the table, and who we protect.

[00:20:43] Women, children, and dogs. Are cherished more than men inside of the household. Even though we have this huge role, if the lights shut off, you're going to look to me to get them cut on, you know what I'm saying? If so, if, if the car gets hit, you're going to look to me to go get a repair, right? If somebody, if somebody hits you or, you know, or, or we go out somewhere, something happens, you're going to look to me for protection.

[00:21:06] No one ever asked what that man is feeling in that moment. Right. You know, so throughout our lives, we're taught to suppress, not express. And in turn, when men do take their lives, people are left with wondering why, why, right? Oh, he had to be struggling in his mental health. Not really. Maybe the man is tired.

[00:21:26] Maybe that individual is tired. So there's a difference, you know what I'm saying, between struggling with mental health because of male, when we struggle with our mental health, and I've done it as well. I've struggled with my mental health, depression, anxiety, the loneliness, the isolation, the anger issues that I had, and just pretty much just not wanting to understand the world anymore.

[00:21:48] You know, not wanting to be a part of it, you know, so I did struggle with all that. And most men do 98 percent of men do until we get tired of struggling. And then we, we come up with permanent solutions to temporary travel. You know, that's where the whole suicide thing comes in or we drink ourselves to death, right?

[00:22:07] You know, or in a lot of cases, we make bad decisions. I know I did. I never got into drugs or anything like that, but I did make really unhealthy decisions would cause me to lose everything. And it's a different battle when you're battling life, but you are on your version of rock bottom. And I've been there.

[00:22:25] And only through willpower, resilience, my faith, was I able to climb out of there and find something different that I could hold on to, you know, like you said, honoring your grief, right? You know what I'm saying? I wanted to honor my son and my family who have gone before me by www. un. org Remembering them, allowing myself to cry, allowing myself to say, I'm not okay, allowing myself to tell others what's going on with me.

[00:22:53] And when I get in those dark places, I can always pick up the phone and say, Hey man, I'm not doing well right now. What's wrong? I don't want to be here. You know, what's wrong? I'm hurting. And somebody's right. And somebody would come to come and sit with me. And I want to do that for other men like myself.

[00:23:10] Because I get tired of seeing the news, you know, this man died by suicide or, you know, this man gave up and just left, disappeared off the face of the earth, not knowing where he's going or anything like that. I get tired of hearing those stories. I like the stories where men go, you know what, I did it for my family.

[00:23:26] But most of all, I did it for me. I like those stories. 

[00:23:30] Jill: My friend and co-worker took his life. It'll be two years in July, and I wish he would have had somebody that he could have called and said, Hey, I can't do this anymore. It's just too much. He did a lot of good in the world. He was highly respected in our community, just a beautiful person, but really.

[00:23:50] Just struggling with that internal thing. And unfortunately, he didn't have somebody that he could call. So that's beautiful that you have people and that you are now that person for others. As you said, the role that men play in society and for our families and all these other things, and there is so much pressure and you know, it's hard as a woman, you know, I am married, I have my husband and there are definitely things that I lean on him for.

[00:24:20] Right. And it is hard sometimes to step back and really look at it and be like, wow, you know, like there is a lot of thankless jobs essentially. And I mean the same for women. There is a lot that we do as well that we don't get, but I think for men there's a different sort of pressure. Like for women, it's okay if we break down, it's okay if we cry, it's okay if we have our moments where we, you know.

[00:24:46] Go a little crazy, quote-unquote, you know, and for men, though, it is different. And I, I hope that over time we can change that culturally, that men can feel better, able to be vulnerable around other men to cry and to say, I'm really having a hard time and not seeing as weak or all the other derogatory terms that people will call men if they're viewed as more feminine, which crying is more feminine, like that whole thing. It all just needs to go. It needs to go. 

[00:25:19] Tony: Look at it this way, right? We're all born with these emotions, this part of who we are, right? The difference is, is that it's encouraged with women, right? And is frowned upon with men.

[00:25:31] And what I mean by that is that our entire lives, we're taught, hey, pick your head up, start crying, don't be a punk, don't act like a little girl. So we're taught at an early age, shut that off. So what we see now in society is men who enter into this realm that's very unfamiliar. So our first instinct is to fight it, right?

[00:25:54] And so If we can fight it, we can hide it because we can tell you that we're fine all day long. Now, I've met women who are just like me as well, right? And they're like, I wasn't toward that. I know I wasn't toward this and I wasn't toward that. And I go, okay, we need to change this. Because if not, we're going to end up doing more damage to ourselves.

[00:26:15] And then to everyone else that is around us. And that's what people see. They see that they want to say, Oh, this person is toxic. No, this person is hurt. See, we have to redefine all of these different things. And what men can start admitting that they are hurt? Then we can start to work, right? We can start working on mental health.

[00:26:35] Because if you mention mental health to a male, they're gonna look at you like, I'm not crazy. Nah, I never said that you were. I never said that you were. But your mental health is not good. Oh, I'm not crazy. Why are you associating mental health with craziness? I didn't say that you needed to go to the crazy house.

[00:26:51] I said that your mental health is not good. And this is the reason why. Because when I'm watching you, I watch what you do to yourself. Men would hurt themselves before they hurt anyone else, depending on their environment. Most men, when they need that release, they get into things like bar fights, right?

[00:27:10] They go to bar to drink, looking for the fight. Or we find other things like MMA, boxing, martial arts, and things like that. It starts off innocent, but then it becomes a challenge. Can I hurt this person before he hurt me? So now it becomes something different. They have to prove their masculinity, no matter who you are or the environment that you're in.

[00:27:32] And that can be pretty dangerous because the right person will hurt a lot of people and not feel anything about it because they've been hurt themselves. I know I used to be that guy. Used to box, martial arts, MMA, all of those different things. When I was in the gangs, It was easier for me because there wasn't a shortage of people for me to hurt, right?

[00:27:53] And no one would say anything. As a matter of fact, there was praise. Oh man, look at what you did to those dudes over there. Yeah, I know, right? It was praise, right? And inside I was just empty. I was just empty. I was looking for an outlet and it gave me exactly that. Now the problem was is that now you have this young guy with all of these different skills.

[00:28:14] It's going to be kind of hard to beat me, right? But now I'm not unbeatable. I've been rocked a couple of times, you know, but it's the warrior mentality. It's like, I have to fight. That's all I know. Most men are the same way. Some women that I've run across, they're the same way too. They're in survival mode.

[00:28:29] They have to fight. They don't know anything outside of their life. Right. I have to fight in order for me to survive. I have to fight in order to keep people from hurting me. I have to fight. That comes from generations and generations of Dan taught the wrong things. At some point I realized that I was tired of surviving and I wanted to live.

[00:28:50] But the problem was is that I didn't know. I didn't know that people lived in homes. I've been homeless 15 times in my life. As a matter of fact, more times than that, I've been homeless 17 times in my life. And I was so used to life stripping me of everything that I just got to a point. I didn't even want anything anymore.

[00:29:10] I was like, if you're just going to take it, you just, I don't need it. If I don't have it, you can't take it. Right. If I don't have anyone around me, that means you can't hurt me. That means that life cannot take anyone else away from me. And that's a hard place to be for most people, men and women alike.

[00:29:27] It's a hard place to be, but there is a silver lining. If they want it, you got people like yourself, um, a lot of other, my colleagues that, you know, there's people out here doing beautiful work. Right. And like yourself, I've lost colleagues to suicide as well with no warning whatsoever, you know, you see them and it just seems like everything is going good.

[00:29:48] And you would think being in this field of grief that we pick up on those things, right? We don't. We really don't because we're so used to seeing an individual walk around happy and serving others and being in a good place. But deep down inside that they're fighting a battle that we don't even see. So we need to be more involved with not just our communities, but with each other.

[00:30:09] As they say, check up on your friends, check up on your family. Even if you don't feel like it, check up on them. You never know. You just never know. Cause I know I get tired of going to funerals, so I do my due diligence and I make sure that people know that, Hey, I'm just calling you. Just making sure you're, how you doing today?

[00:30:26] You know, no, don't tell me that you're fine. I know what that means. What's going on with you? You tell me that, Hey, can you give me a call back at 30? I'm going to give you a call back at 30. As a matter of fact, I'm giving you a call back at 29. I'm going to pass to you. Eventually you're going to look and go, man, he just won't let up.

[00:30:40] No, I'm not. Because I'd rather check up on you than to read your obituary. I'm just that individual. I care enough to, to pester you. I really do. Until you get it into your head that, hey, I'm here. I'm available. If you need to talk, let's talk. Let's lay it all out on the table and see where we go from there.

[00:31:01] Maybe something I've gone through, something I've learned can help you, you know, or maybe something that you've learned can help me, right? It's a, it's a give, give. I don't, I'm not going to take anything away from you. I just want to give you what I have. So you can have some tools to get you through those not so great days.

[00:31:19] We all have them. We all have them, but we have to have the right things to help us. Like I said, grabbing onto someone else's belief until you can develop your own can be a, can be a magnificent tool, right? Journaling. Most men, we don't like to journal, but we will write stuff down. Kind of strange, ain't it?

[00:31:37] All right, I'm going to write this poem. You journaling, you journaling. You know, I look at him and go, so what is this? Oh, that's a poem that I wrote. Okay, you might have to hold on to this a little bit, you know, kind of dissect it a little bit and everything. Men are sneaky that way, but some women are as well.

[00:31:53] My fiance, she has a look on her face, right? And so when she's not in a good place, her energy is off and I can feel it. But I also pay attention to the way that she moves, I pay attention to the way that she talks, the things that she does, and things like that. So I can pick up on it really quick and I go, Hey, are you okay right now?

[00:32:12] And she just goes, Yes, I'm okay. No, no, no. Are you okay right now? And then if she gives me a second one, I'm okay. I, I know to back off, but then I watch it, but I know how to go back and redress that to open up the door so she can feel comfortable coming and talking with me. And she does the same in return.

[00:32:30] So a lot of that needs to happen within a world. A lot of doors need to open so we can't be comfortable with one another. 

[00:32:37] Jill: Yeah, you bring up a good point with the comfort, because I agree with you that we should be checking up on our friends and our family and our loved ones. So many people are afraid to because they don't know what to do.

[00:32:49] If somebody says, you know what, you're right, I'm not okay. And then What do you do with that information? People want to fix. They feel like they need to provide a solution. They want to do something with it. When a lot of times somebody just needs to have a listening ear, somebody that'll say, then tell me about it.

[00:33:08] What's going on? You don't have to provide solutions. You don't have to fix their problems, but also know that there are resources out there. That if, you know, your friend or your loved one says, you know, I'm really thinking about taking my life and that's too big for you. You don't know what to do with that information.

[00:33:25] There are people that you can reach out to for help for your friend or your loved one. You don't have to fix that problem for them. But sometimes they just need somebody to be able to listen and hear you're right. I'm not okay. I need some help, but we don't have those skills. We're not taught to do that.

[00:33:43] We're taught to talk about baseball and what's on TV and all those super shallow things. Not the deeper conversations, not the, what do they call it? Active listening. We're not taught to actively listen. We're taught to listen to respond. We're taught to listen and already be thinking about what we're going to say back when sometimes we just need to almost literally bite our tongues and just listen to what the person's saying.

[00:34:10] And then also realize that if it's too much for you, if it's too big for you, there's people that can help. It's not. That you have to fix anything for anybody, but checking up on people can go a long way. Just knowing that somebody loves them enough to say, no, for real though. Like, how are you actually doing?

[00:34:29] Not the like, yeah, everything's fine. I'm okay. Yep. The sun shining. It's a beautiful day. Like, no, how are you really doing? It is a skill like any other skill. It can be. It's scary sometimes to go into that space of, I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to fix this. I don't know the answers.

[00:34:47] You don't have to know the answers. It's okay. It's okay to not know the answers. 

[00:34:51] Tony: One of the main reasons why people are afraid to ask for help is because when you put yourself in a vulnerable position, a lot of times people will try to compare their situations to yours, right? So it's like comparing war stories.

[00:35:06] Oh, well, I see what you're going through, but I've gone through this right here, right? Sometimes you just gotta just shut up. But that is a skill that needs to be taught when people enter that space. I always tell my colleagues that help me do one-on-ones with the men and stuff because a lot of men, we talk at night when women and our children are, right?

[00:35:27] You know, that way we can have peace of mind or, you know, we can get lost in our thoughts and that's when we are the most vulnerable. So I teach the men that I work with, you have to be mindful, be very, very mindful. Understand that when you enter into that space, your story does not have any place in this.

[00:35:45] Because for one, you got the first thing, the hardest thing out the way is that they're inviting you in. Now what you need to do, first and foremost, shut up, become a visitor and alleviate Anything that can distract them from sitting down talking to you. So say for instance, if, if Jill calls me and says, Hey, I need someone to talk to.

[00:36:05] And I go, okay, would you, what would you like to meet? Would you like to talk on the phone? Would you like to meet a person? A lot of times you're going to say, I want to meet you in person. Okay. So when I get around you, I'm here. That means that. I'm opening up the door for whatever you need to say. I'm going to be your sponge.

[00:36:21] I'm going to be that soundboard and be whatever you need me to be while we're together. So that means I don't need you to get up. I don't need you to give me anything. As a matter of fact, I'm going to ask you, is there anything I can get you? Is there anything I can get you? See, I'm going to visit with you.

[00:36:35] I'm going to be the best visitor that I can possibly be in that moment. Because I don't need you distracted. And in the same sense, it shows that I'm caring for you, right? You know what I'm saying? So I don't want you, I don't want you to stress when I come down and make sure that you're good. I'm going to sit there.

[00:36:53] We don't have to talk. It can just be my presence there. If you want to talk, it's all about you. I don't have any advice to give you. I don't have any suggestions to give you. I'm here for you and only you. If you ask me a question, I'm going to answer it honestly, but then I'm going to redirect it back to you because I want you to get whatever's inside of you.

[00:37:15] Give it to me. That's why I'm here. Give it to me. And that way, when I leave, I want you to feel better. And I would take this with me. I'm going to learn what I can and I'm going to release it back into the world because that's going to come back to you a lot different. You're going to remember the conversation.

[00:37:30] You're going to remember the way that you felt, and it's going to encourage you to do a little bit more. And yes, there are people out there that can help the thing. Now there's, there's good and bad that comes with that. The good is. The people who are willing to help, they're doing it out the kindness of their heart right now.

[00:37:49] The bad part about it is, is that what if you get somebody who's not doing it out the counters of the heart, we all hear the rumors, you know, when someone calls in struggling with their mental health, and then you got somebody on the other line, that's just rude and nasty to you. It's going to add to it.

[00:38:05] So you never know what you're going to get. You got to know your yourself and what you want, finding what works for you, right? When it comes down to support groups, individuals, and sometimes that means getting people out of your life. So the right people can come into it, right? I always recommend when people go into support groups, don't just jump into a support group just because someone else is in there.

[00:38:27] Make sure that support groups provide you what you need. For right? Is it an interactive one? Is it one that you can be educated in? Is it one that you're just talking? What are you looking for? But most of all, the people that you're around, are they leaning into you? And are you able to pour into them and vice versa?

[00:38:48] Or, you know, are they fulfilling your love language? Right? That's a huge thing, because we can talk verbally, Right. But you have individuals that can talk to your love language and those are the ones that you're going to be able to latch on to and be able to walk with and vice versa. 

[00:39:07] Jill: Yeah, that's a great point that you need to find those people.

[00:39:11] Not everybody is going to be your people, and that's okay too. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. There's nothing wrong with you. They're not bad people. They're just not your people, and that's okay. 

[00:39:20] Tony: That's always okay. You know, it takes us a long time to do it, especially when we walk this path, right?

[00:39:25] And we speak from experience when we say that not everybody's going to family members, right? Be with that you thought that was going to be there with you. It may not be there with you and that's fine, you know, but you have to attach yourself to people, that genuinely care for you, that would genuinely lean into you and will accept it in return.

[00:39:47] But you have to be open to receiving what's coming because as we all know, healing is hard work. And it's painful, so it changes the dynamic of how you walk, right? You have to be around people that allow you to feel freely, you know? Yeah. 

[00:40:04] Jill: It's about time for us to wrap it up though. This is amazing. I mean, just so much knowledge and wisdom and just heartfelt information that I really appreciate you sharing.

[00:40:16] Thank you. Is there any last things you want to leave us with? Any last thoughts? I will put in the show notes. A link to your Instagram. I know you have a Facebook as well. You have a lot going on. 

[00:40:27] Tony: Yes. First thing, if you're a male looking for support, find me on Facebook, Instagram, Men's Grief Support, and Members of Us.

[00:40:35] I'm on both. I'm on LinkedIn as well. If you're a grief worker and you're looking for a place to be supported and a place to collaborate and be around some amazing people, the Global Grief Network is available. I do monthly support groups for men as well. We have a lot of different programs going in both, and you know what I would like to leave people as a reminder, you're not broken, you're hurt, and you need to heal, and it's okay to feel what you're feeling, there's no downside to it, but once you admit that.

[00:41:08] It's all uphill from there and it does get easier over time. So don't rush the process. 

[00:41:13] Jill: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Tony. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day. You're welcome. And it really was my pleasure to have this conversation.

[00:41:22] Tony: Thank you very much. It was my pleasure being on. Thank you.

[00:41:26] Jill: Thank you for listening to this episode of Seeing Death Clearly. My guest next week is Samantha Ruth. a psychologist, speaker, and author who shares her profound journey of love and loss. Her husband unexpectedly passed away and she discusses her unconventional path to healing, which includes connecting with nature and learning to practice meditation to cope with grief.

[00:41:49] Join me next week to hear how Sam's experiences Have shaped her perspective on life, love, and spirituality. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who might find it interesting. Your support in spreading the podcast is greatly appreciated. Please consider subscribing on your favorite podcast platform and leaving a five-star review.

[00:42:10] Your positive feedback helps recommend the podcast to others. The podcast also offers a paid subscription feature that allows you to financially support the show. Your contribution will help keep the podcast advertisement free. Whether your donation is large or small, every amount is valuable. I sincerely appreciate all of you for listening to the show and supporting me in any way you can.

[00:42:30] You can find a link in the show notes to subscribe to the paid monthly subscription, as well as a link to my Venmo if you prefer to make a one-time contribution. Thank you. And I look forward to seeing you in next week's episode of Seeing Death Clearly.